Power Creep - Are the newer options just plain better than the Core Rulebook ones?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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TriOmegaZero wrote:

Direct from the PRD.

Blindsight (Ex) wrote:

This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within this range. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.

Format: blindsight 60 ft.; Location: Senses.

You still need a rule to allow that 'usually' to count.

Ah I should be less lazy and actually go to the PRD.

Still the word "usually" prevents the phrase from actually meaning anything. It implies exceptions without specifying them. Thus the line is a summary of the rules instead of actually carrying any weight itself.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And until you find an exception that allows you to negate it, that rule still stands.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
And until you find an exception that allows you to negate it, that rule still stands.

Hellcat stealth is neither "Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment" which is all blindsight actually let's you negate.

Usually, negating those means you don't have to make a perception check.

A line with "usually" in it is a fairly worthless line. It does not mean anything and carries no rule weight.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not at my table it doesn't. Good luck with your own GM.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Not at my table it doesn't.

That's cool, but I was pointing out a RAW implication which requires reading the rules from a legalistic perspective.

That isn't all that fun to do, so I don't really expect tables to run it that way. The feat itself is rather nonsense and fairly hard to fathom how it works (outside of that one scene in Samurai Jack).


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
And until you find an exception that allows you to negate it, that rule still stands.

Hellcat stealth is neither "Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment" which is all blindsight actually let's you negate.

Usually, negating those means you don't have to make a perception check.

A line with "usually" in it is a fairly worthless line. It does not mean anything and carries no rule weight.

I'm all for buffing Stealth and Rogues... But you're really stretching it there...

That "usually" is the writer's way of saying "There might be an ability that can defeat Blindsense. I don't know."


Lemmy wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
And until you find an exception that allows you to negate it, that rule still stands.

Hellcat stealth is neither "Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment" which is all blindsight actually let's you negate.

Usually, negating those means you don't have to make a perception check.

A line with "usually" in it is a fairly worthless line. It does not mean anything and carries no rule weight.

I'm all for buffing Stealth and Rogues... But you're really stretching it there...

That "usually" is the writer's way of saying "There might be an ability that can defeat Blindsense. I don't know."

Funny thing is that this wouldn't be a buff for stealth or rogues. Anyone could take hellcat stealth and stealth without the feat is still completely negated by blindsight. By negating invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment you are effectively in normal or bright light.

Reading the word "usually" and guessing at what the writer meant by it is strictly RAI.


"Usually" does imply it's the case, unless there is an exception to it. Hellcat Stealth doesn't say it's said exception.


Lemmy wrote:
"Usually" does imply it's the case, unless there is an exception to it. Hellcat Stealth doesn't say it's said exception.

And if we were talking about the rules as implied then that line might actually mean something.

Scarab Sages

The word usually means always unless there is a specific exception to it. Hellcat Stealth does not have that exception.


The rules do not, and never have worked on "It doesn't say I can't" logic.

Hellcat Stealth doesn't say you can. Period. End of story, you cannot.


Rynjin wrote:

The rules do not, and never have worked on "It doesn't say I can't" logic.

Hellcat Stealth doesn't say you can. Period. End of story, you cannot.

And I am saying it does say you can.


Then you're not actually reading the text, and are filling in blanks that you have made up with your own imaginary rules text.


Imbicatus wrote:
The word usually means always unless there is a specific exception to it. Hellcat Stealth does not have that exception.

The word usually does not mean always.

We already have a specifics override general rule. Specific exception always override general rules. There is no reason to put "usually" in a line as a reference to the possibility of exceptions.

A line with the word "usually" in it, is a summary of how the rules work, not an explicit rule since it does not use explicit terms.


Rynjin wrote:
Then you're not actually reading the text, and are filling in blanks that you have made up with your own imaginary rules text.

I am not the one pretending that certain words are actually other words.


*sigh*

TWF doesn't say I can't make a a main hand and a off-hand attack after I move 10ft... Therefore, I can move and make 2 attacks.


Lemmy wrote:

*sigh*

TWF doesn't say I can't make a a main hand and a off-hand attack after I move 10ft... Therefore, I can move and make 2 attacks.

When you figure out how to do a move action during a fullround action let me know.


TWF doesn't say I can't do it as a standard action. It doesn't say I can't fly either.

TWF wrote:
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.

It doesn't say that's the only benefit... So I can now move and make two attacks.


Lemmy wrote:

TWF doesn't say I can't do it as a standard action. It doesn't say I can't fly either.

TWF wrote:
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.
It doesn't say that's the only benefit... So I can now move and make two attacks.

Then you go to the two weapon fighting section. Which does not list an action.

Then you go to the full attack section which outlines how you use two weapon fighting.

You are right. Looking at just the feat without looking at the rest of the rules is silly way to try to interpret feats.

Scarab Sages

Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
The word usually means always unless there is a specific exception to it. Hellcat Stealth does not have that exception.

The word usually does not mean always.

I didn't say it means always. I said it mean always unless there is an exception.

This game is FULL of exceptions. They are specific. The rules do what the say they do and no more. You are reading into the text to create an exception where there isn't one.


Imbicatus wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
The word usually means always unless there is a specific exception to it. Hellcat Stealth does not have that exception.

The word usually does not mean always.

I didn't say it means always. I said it mean always unless there is an exception.

This game is FULL of exceptions. They are specific. The rules do what the say they do and no more. You are reading into the text to create an exception where there isn't one.

So now instead of replacing a word with a word, you want to pretend a word actually means a whole phrase instead of what the word actually means.

What is next? Does "usually" actually mean "ask Imbicatus what the rules are"?


Possibly... You tell me! You're the one ignoring a whole sentence just because the word "usually" appeared.

Scarab Sages

The rules assume you know what the word usual means.

merriam-webster wrote:


usu·al
adjective \ˈyü-zhə-wəl, -zhəl; ˈyüzh-wəl\

: done, found, or used most of the time or in most cases : normal or regular
Full Definition of USUAL
1
: accordant with usage, custom, or habit : normal
2
: commonly or ordinarily used <followed his usual route>
3
: found in ordinary practice or in the ordinary course of events : ordinary

Usual is the default mode. If it is not normal there is an exception. The is not an exception for hellcat stealth.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:


What is next? Does "usually" actually mean "ask Imbicatus what the rules are"?

For those of us who speak English, usually means "under normal conditions; generally."

You may notice that that is indeed a whole phrase. Because words are defined that way.

Hellcat Stealth does not specify an unusual condition for this ability.


Lemmy wrote:
Possibly... You tell me! You're the one ignoring a whole sentence just because the word "usually" appeared.

I am not ignoring it. I am just recognizing that when you say, "usually X happens" that does not actually tell you when x happens. It is a summary of what happens based on the explicit phrases. With what blindsight negates usually you would not need to roll a perception check. Blindsight does not allow you to forgo perception checks. It allows you to negate nearly everything that would require a perception check from you to perceive.

Nearly everything:
"Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object."

The line of effect clause has interesting applications too for negating blindsight. But if you interpret "usually" as always then I guess you don't need line of effect for the ability to work.


Rynjin wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
What is next? Does "usually" actually mean "ask Imbicatus what the rules are"?

For those of us who speak English, usually means "under normal conditions; generally."

You may notice that that is indeed a whole phrase. Because words are defined that way.

Hellcat Stealth does not specify an unusual condition for this ability.

I am not sure at how many ways I can phrase how words like "usually" prevent a line from being explicit.

Yes, you can get implicit meaning from such a phrase. What I am not understanding is what is possessing you to use the phrase as an explicit rule when it does not have an explicit meaning.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Locking thread.

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