Promoting different combat styles over 2 handed weapons


Homebrew and House Rules


I've played a lot of Pathfinder since it first came out, both as a GM and as a player, and I'm getting ready to start running a new campaign. As I do so I find myself reflecting on the overwhelming popularity of two handed weapons amongst player characters in my group. They are flat out the best and simplest way for martial characters to do damage in the game. By comparison ranged combat and sword and shield styles seem much less effective. With that in mind I'm wondering about adding some house rules to promote a bigger variety of combat styles and I thought I'd ask the opinion of the messageboards here to see if there are any obvious pitfalls that I've overlooked. ;-)

All characters gain the following feats for free reducing the 'feat tax' problem:

  • Point-Blank Shot – makes everyone a little better at ranged attacks.
  • Weapon finesse – which is only useful for high Dex characters but makes them more viable combatants.

And similarly any character who meets the prerequisites gets these feats for free. Prerequisites given in brackets below for convenience.

  • Combat Expertise (Int 13)
  • Mounted Combat (Ride 1 rank)
  • Quick Draw (BAB +1)
  • Shield Focus (Shield Proficiency, BAB +1)

Finally to rein in the use of two-handed weapons Power Attack would not give 50% extra damage when using two handed weapons just the regular damage increase.


Archery is actually the most powerful style because you can full attack every round with no need to move. It just sucks early because non humans can't get precise shot until 3rd. If something must be done, just take point blank shot off of precise shot's prereqs.

Two handed weapons are strong because they cost only a single feat to maximize: power attack. Dual wielding has a staggering feat cost just to compete. For example, a pair of shortswords with a feat (twf) yields 2d6+(1.5 * str) if both hits land at a -2. Power attack also adds 3 for every pair of swings. However, two handed weapons deal the same base damage in one hit with no penalty.

So, just spitballing:
1) Dealing the 1.5 str and power attack damage costs a feat, one with a prohibitive con req, just like how twf has an absurd dex req.

2) Alternatively, give everyone the twf feat line as is for free.

3) Allow twfers to make two attacks on an AoO or standard action.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Two-handed weapons are very effective and they don't require a lot of investment (a high strength, Power Attack and a big weapon is all you need to be an effective damage dealer), which makes them an attractive option for many martial characters. However, they are hardly the only option, though other combat styles require a bigger investment of feats. After a few levels, dedicated archers are superior, and high-level sword&board-fighters combine considerable damage output with impressive defenses.

Why do you want to change things? Are your players unhappy with a (perceived) lack of options? Otherwise, I would let them have fun with their greatswords, greataxes and glaives.

In my opinion, nerfing existing options is usually a bad way to mitigate balance problems. Instead, try to create incentives. Though I wouldn't give away those feats for free (with the exception of Weapon Finesse). I tried to come up with new weapon-specific combat styles to encourage the use of less common weapons, which can be found HERE (though these are still work in progress and haven't been playtested yet).

You could also use NPC's with uncommon fighting styles as opponents to show your players that other viable options exist.


Change TWF to work like this:

"If you are holding two weapons, and you are making an attack, you can instead make an attack with both weapons with the following penalties *insert chart from TWF feat and TWF fighting in CRB here*"


gabrias wrote:

I've played a lot of Pathfinder since it first came out, both as a GM and as a player, and I'm getting ready to start running a new campaign. As I do so I find myself reflecting on the overwhelming popularity of two handed weapons amongst player characters in my group. They are flat out the best and simplest way for martial characters to do damage in the game. By comparison ranged combat and sword and shield styles seem much less effective. With that in mind I'm wondering about adding some house rules to promote a bigger variety of combat styles and I thought I'd ask the opinion of the messageboards here to see if there are any obvious pitfalls that I've overlooked. ;-)

All characters gain the following feats for free reducing the 'feat tax' problem:

  • Point-Blank Shot – makes everyone a little better at ranged attacks.
  • Weapon finesse – which is only useful for high Dex characters but makes them more viable combatants.

And similarly any character who meets the prerequisites gets these feats for free. Prerequisites given in brackets below for convenience.

  • Combat Expertise (Int 13)
  • Mounted Combat (Ride 1 rank)
  • Quick Draw (BAB +1)
  • Shield Focus (Shield Proficiency, BAB +1)

Finally to rein in the use of two-handed weapons Power Attack would not give 50% extra damage when using two handed weapons just the regular damage increase.

Archery is already the best one. Mounted Combat due to the mount will not always be chosen but it does a lot of damage.

TWF'ing is something that I helped out by taking GTWF out of the feat tree. It is not part of ITWF.

Sword and Board TWF is not bad. It just takes a while to come online.

Normal sword and board is the worst one with regard to damage, but you do get to attack and have a decent AC so that seems fair to me.

Dark Archive

We have been playing Kingmaker with the a house rule that you may attack with your both hands as a Standard action if you have the TWF feat (but must still spend a full action to get more attacks). It has been great for my Rogue (dual shortswords) and combat for all TWF characters is much more mobile.


Thanks for the replies folks. I suppose I'm influenced by the metagame I play in. Most campaigns I'm involved in run from level 1 through to 7 or 8, so things that take a while to come on line are relatively weak as you won't get to use them much. The reason I'm thinking about changing things is just to promote more variety.

I hadn't thought about changing TWF. That's an interesting idea.

Sovereign Court

I agree that 2H doesn't really need nerfing, it's other combat styles that need to be less of a hassle to use.

In the case of 2WF, the move/full attack issue is paramount.

In the case of archery, I think all that's needed is to drop PBS as a prerequisite for other feats. It's a decent feat and you'll probably pick it up as an archer sooner or later. However, right now, playing a non-human level 1-2 archer is just annoying because you really need Precise Shot.

I'm not sure on the best way to make shields more attractive. I think basically, shields right now just don't provide quite enough AC without big investment. In a more realistic combat system, shields would be the default choice. But in PF, they're kind of an oddball choice.

Verdant Wheel

mplindustries,
building off your spitball, and bearing Amanuensis's positive design philosophy:

Double Slice (alternate):
Prerequisites: ST 15, DX 15, BAB 1+
Benefit: While you are fighting using two weapons (or a double weapon), you may add your full Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand, and you may make a primary and off-hand attack (two attacks) as a standard action.
Normal: A character fighting with two weapons only adds half their Strength bonus to off-hand damage rolls, and can only make two attacks on their turn as part of a full attack action.


Shields should be able to bull rush and overrun without provoking AOOs, and bashing should never cost your AC bonus. The TWF chain should be one feat that scales, and ease up with that DEX requirement a bit.

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