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| 23 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This post is a request to clarify the Adventurer's Armory Scorpion Whip in regards to how it interacts with the following feats;
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (Whip)
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Greater Whip Mastery
Serpent Lash
Other feats that require the use of/benefit the use of a whip.
Given that the AA Scorpion Whip is now the default version for use in PFS organized play, clearing up the weapon's usage would greatly benefit all players who wish to use it and reduce any confusion for GM's presented with one at their table.
Well, if it's official, there's http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip- scorpion
'If you are proficient with a whip, you can use the scorpion whip like a whip.'
This might be like how composite bows are the same as same-size bows for feats?
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Unfortunately, d20pfsrd is not accurate in many regards and especially in this instance. The description you quoted is in relation to the Ultimate Equipment/Ultimate Combat Scorpion Whip which has a completely different stat block and description than the Adventurer's Armory version which this FAQ request is dealing with.
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There have been a number of different variations of the Scorpion Whip, and a number of different interpretations of how each one functions.
If anyone, wants to use the Scorpion Whip in PFS, they must use the one written in the Adventurer's Armory.
Of course, to properly do that, one must figure out how that version functions.
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This post is a request to clarify the Adventurer's Armory Scorpion Whip in regards to how it interacts with the following feats;
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (Whip)
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Greater Whip Mastery
Serpent Lash
Other feats that require the use of/benefit the use of a whip.Given that the AA Scorpion Whip is now the default version for use in PFS organized play, clearing up the weapon's usage would greatly benefit all players who wish to use it and reduce any confusion for GM's presented with one at their table.
I think the answer is actually pretty obvious.. the answer is just frustrating is all.
By RAW, the scorpion whip is a distinct weapon from a (standard) whip that happens to have a special rule where one does not need its own exotic proficiency feat if one is already proficient with a whip. Therefore, the feats and abilities that work with whips do not also work with scorpion whips since it is a different weapon.
By RAI, the scorpion whip is "clearly intended" to be considered close enough to a (standard) whip so as to be interchangeable with regards to feats and abilities.
Since the PFS team dropped the ruling without clarifying that question, you'll have to pick your answer: RAI or RAW. And expect (and accept!) that different PFS GMs may not pick the same answer as you for their tables.
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So, expecting, and accepting, extreme table variance, is the only option?
What are the initial expectations though?
Should it always be, going to the judge, and saying "tell me how this works"?
Can there be no "I believe it works this way", as one must come into the situation, without any expectation, other than "the judge will tell me"?
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Well, how many years has it been since UE was published? And how long after that did it take the PFS ruling to "just use the AA version instead" to come about?
Eventually, they may come back and re-rule on a ruling. Maybe it won't take them as long as the first time around. I think it'll never come, tbh, but what do I know.
If and when it comes, then that'll be fine. We'll have an answer. Whether that day is tomorrow or never, from now until then.. Yes. It boils down to expecting and accepting table variance.
I wouldn't call it extreme.. it's pretty binary. Either your GM will say the whip stuff all works, or it all does not. If you're going to invest in whip feats and use a scorpion whip, on the off chance a GM insists they won't work together I'd at least own a "backup" mwk standard whip.
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So, we expect, and accept, variation.
Now, with that, what should our default expectation of it's functionality be?
Baseline should be "Go with the conservative ruling." You'll be less affected negatively, if you get that answer.
One thing you can do to minimize negative reactions, is to make sure the GM knows up front about the scorpion whip. No matter how good a GM she is, catching her by surprise, especially with grey area stuff, can cause bad responses.
And, as Deusvult has mentioned, especially if you are going for the Whip Mastery line of feats anyhow, is to have a normal whip, of some sort, as a backup. Besides, it never hurts to have a backup weapon, in case of nasty NPCs disarming, sundering or otherwise removing your weapon (Grease, anyone?).
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This cannot be FAQ'd.
Mark Seifter, who's pretty much the FAQ guy, has said (repeatedly, now) that material from the non-Core lineup will never be FAQ'd.
If you peruse the different FAQ sections, you'll notice they only cover the Core (hardback) books.
Luckily, Ultimate Equipment will be getting an errata on its next printing, and the Scorpion Whip will get clarified there.
We just have to have patience until that day comes.
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I FAQ'ed because I'd like to see this matter laid to rest. But personally I think it's very simple: a scorpion whip is a whip with the only difference being that it does lethal damage. In all other respects it's like a normal whip.
You can read the text in a different way if you like, but this reading (and only this reading) solves all the problems with it, doesn't produce weird side-effects, and leaves us with a useable and cool weapon.
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Leaving the standard whip completely obsolete.
No one uses regular bows either - everyone uses composite bows. And frankly - there are bunches of weapons which no one actually uses. (Some - like the current scorpion whip - because they're so confusing and they don't want to deal with table variation. I'm looking at you kyoketsu shoge!)
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Which is fine. It's a gimmick weapon. The falchion and scimitar leave most other weapons in their category obsolete, and they aren't even exotic.
Actually - the falchion is an example of a weapon that no one should use. (Unless you're a half-orc without martial weapon proficiency.) The nodachi is the same thing except that it averages 0.5 points more damage and has brace.
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I direct you to the FAQ that's explicitly for the non-Core material. I seem to remember Mark's comment being about how it was harder to FAQ non-Core material, because it requires a lot more people to meet on it, and thus it's unlikely, not impossible.This cannot be FAQ'd.
Mark Seifter, who's pretty much the FAQ guy, has said (repeatedly, now) that material from the non-Core lineup will never be FAQ'd.
If you peruse the different FAQ sections, you'll notice they only cover the Core (hardback) books.
Luckily, Ultimate Equipment will be getting an errata on its next printing, and the Scorpion Whip will get clarified there.
We just have to have patience until that day comes.
One must wonder how that meshes with what he keeps repeating, then:
there's a hard and fast rule to figure out if I can help get something FAQed: if it is not in a book in the Pathfinder RPG line of books (the hardcover rules books, like Occult Adventures, basically all the hardcovers except the occasional hardcover books in the Campaign Setting line like Inner Sea World Guide and Inner Sea Gods), I have no sway to organize a FAQ cabal and there is nothing I can do.
That's a pretty strong statement in the negative.
There is nothing I, personally, can do. Like the new FAQs or hate 'em, while the whole team works together to build a consensus, there's no doubt in my mind that if it weren't for my Diplomacy checks, we wouldn't have the regular FAQs we've been having, so while the ruling is from all of us, you can probably blame me for the existence of a FAQ if you'd rather it have just stayed ambiguous and had no FAQ. However, I am not connected in any way to the FAQing of the other lines, so it would be inappropriate for me to roll Diplomacy checks on that topic. Thus, there is nothing I can do, but that also doesn't mean that you should say never.
Confusing, huh? It confused me too when I first got here. One of the top things I wanted to FAQ was blood money, and it took I think three consecutive explanations for me to completely and fully understand the whole deal as to why that wouldn't be happening.
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@Nefreet: notice how he calls it a "hard and fast" rule, not an airtight rule. And he's talking about what he can personally do, not what can be done by anyone at all.
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Anyway, the normal whip isn't obsolete. Whip Mastery makes normal whips better than scorpion whips, because you retain the option to deal nonlethal damage if that's expedient. And if you're really dedicated to using whips, you can't really ignore Improved Whip Mastery.
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Mark, I think you went a different direction with my comment than I was.
I don't think I've ever complained about your regular FAQ updates. I love that you're doing them. I love that someone is doing them. That backlog was getting atrocious. I know there've been a vocal group of forum goers that immediately lead every Friday with "this is a terrible FAQ, rar rar rar", but please don't count me amongst them.
I was understanding your statements to mean there are some items that just can't be FAQ'd. Because, if that's not what you meant, why mention anything at all? Every FAQ is already a long shot. That's assumed. But when the FAQ guy says "no", or even just a statement in the negative, that speaks volumes.
Mark, I think you went a different direction with my comment than I was.
I don't think I've ever complained about your regular FAQ updates. I love that you're doing them. I love that someone is doing them. That backlog was getting atrocious. I know there've been a vocal group of forum goers that immediately lead every Friday with "this is a terrible FAQ, rar rar rar", but please don't count me amongst them.
I was understanding your statements to mean there are some items that just can't be FAQ'd. Because, if that's not what you meant, why mention anything at all? Every FAQ is already a long shot. That's assumed. But when the FAQ guys says "no", or even just a statement in the negative, that speaks volumes.
Hmm, it's been a while since that thread, but I think my quoted post from the other thread was in response to a post about asking me to get it FAQed, so that's why I made a post about what I, personally, can get FAQed.
So, while we're on the topic, any hints as to what Friday's update will be about?
It's the holiday FAQ, and there won't be one for a few weeks after that due to the holidays. For everyone's holiday gift this year, I'm hoping to give a double-FAQ, each of which is significant.
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So, while we're on the topic, any hints as to what Friday's update will be about?It's the holiday FAQ, and there won't be one for a few weeks after that due to the holidays. For everyone's holiday gift this year, I'm hoping to give a double-FAQ, each of which is significant.
Santa Seifter, I'd like a Scorpion Whip that works with Weapon Finesse and the Whip Mastery feats and a Shovel that can be enchanted for Christmas!
....So, uh.... are we gonna do the whole lap-sitting thing now or should we just skip the fore play and go straight to the milk & cookies?
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I'm not greedy like MrRetsej, I'd just like a version of the Scorpion Whip that works out of the box without any theory crafting or guessing. ;)
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Santa Seifter, I'd like a Scorpion Whip that works with Weapon Finesse and the Whip Mastery feats ...
You'll put your eye out, kid.
Santa Seifter, I'd like a Scorpion Whip that works with Weapon Finesse and the Whip Mastery feats ...You'll put your eye out, kid.
LoL that made my night. :)
Kusarigama?Oh this used to be such a useful weapon in 3.5, reach+ adyacent threathen, not that much anymore tought
If we're asking for holiday gifts, I would like all chain and whip type weapons to be finessable, please.
:)
-j