The card reads
"At This Location
Choose a random character. If that character is at another location, move her to this location; otherwise, move her to a random location."
Can we get a timing clarification on When this event occurs? At the start of the turn? After the move step?
Well, assuming that there's no error, and everything is as intended, it looks like a power you can choose to use.
However, I'd expect to see the words "You may" at the start if that were the case. Also, it would need to be limited in some fashion to prevent you from moving a character to the chamber, away to a random one, back, and away again until they go where the player wants.
So, basically, there should be a trigger in there to make it work well, and I therefore have no idea. Truly a question only Mike or Vic or someone can answer.
EDIT: I just saw that it says "random character." With that wording, it could technically work as is, like I suggested (a power you can choose to activate). Because it's a random player, the exploit I pointed out would not work very well because it would move you away at some point and break the loop. However, it's ambiguous enough without "you may" or something similar that a clarification would be nice.
Pretty sure that it's not optional and you do it just once a turn. But I don't really know when during the turn. And I think it happens every turn that someone is at the Teleportation Chamber!
Agreed, if it started with a timing, it would be non-optional and occur every instance that timing occurred (every turn if it's at the beginning or end of a step).
But RAW, it looks like a power you can choose to trigger. It probably is a start/end of phase though.
Woow I get to answer before Hawk!
Fully supporting Orbis :
Hum... issue is : if there is no timing included in the sentence, you could argue that you could use that power numerous time during your turn, until you position everyone where you want, in effect cancelling the "random destination effect".
Pretty sure wasn't the intention.
Definitively, should be FAQed to be reworded something like :
"When blablabla, [you may] choose a character..."
With blablabla being a timely effect happening once (When moving to this location, when moving from this location...) or every turn (At the start/end your turn, before/after your Y step...)
Now is the time to summon the Not-this-Mike level IV Monster to get a reaction.
Fully supporting Orbis
And all was right with the world.
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We're on this. Posting FAQs took a back seat to getting Wrath out the door.
"A card says what it needs to, and doesn't mean what it doesn't say."
First of all, the card doesn't say what it needs to. You absolutely need to tell people the trigger for the power.
I would guess that the power triggers at the start of your turn, but that is just a guess. You are guessing that the power also triggers when you arrive. The card shouldn't rely on what we "feel" it should explain when it triggers. Just like every other location .
edit: I went through ever location in Skull and Shackles. Every single location (save for those that alter difficulty) has an explicit trigger that tells you when the effect occurs. This card is missing text.
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The card is missing a trigger, period. You realize you just posted a long post about how you can obviously assume certain triggers, only to end it by saying not to interpret something that isn't there. Locations always tell you their triggers. This isn't just some card where they decided we should make assumptions that aren't there, it's missing text.
We're on this. Posting FAQs took a back seat to getting Wrath out the door.
OK let's get it straight. We are fully aware how deeply overbusy you may be nearing Xmas, Mike.
And still you note points that you'll have to get back to.I said it hundreds time, but I'll say it once more : you guys are the best support team for one of the best game ever. You'll never have to apologize for whatever. We know. We fully appreciate. Period.
And if any proof is still needed : just look at Lisa's direct involvment in explaining (or trying to :-)) how to play the Jolly Roger.
So we'll just wait for the FAQ, no pressure, enjoy Xmas.
We're on this. Posting FAQs took a back seat to getting Wrath out the door.
Thanks Mike. I continue to be impressed with the work that you and your team have done with Skull and Shackles. Can't wait for Wrath.
You'll never have to apologize for whatever.
Appreciated, but I wasn't apologizing. We have a small team which is on a lot of tasks right now, and it's my job to triage those tasks to make sure we're on the right track. But we take all of the tasks seriously, and will be clearing out our FAQueue as soon as we can. Not long now.
FAQueueBest notaword word ever.
+1
You'll never have to apologize for whatever.Appreciated, but I wasn't apologizing. ...
And as I said, you certainly didn't had to :-) Hope I wasn't misunderstood (I left Colorado more than 10 years ago and my English starts to play tricks on me). If I wasn't clear, the I (emphasis on "I")do have to apologize and I do it immediately.
This is hilarious.
The closing requirement does not tell you to encounter the examined card, just defeat it, which to me seems shorthand for "attempt the check(s) to defeat it" ignoring any "before you act" or "after you act" kind of stuff.
Then...
Examining and Searching
Sometimes a card allows you to examine one or more cards—that means looking at the specified card and then putting it back where it came from.
The closing requirement told you to examine the other location, and since you didn't encounter it, you can't "resolve the encounter" so you put whatever it was back where it was.
If it is a boon, you put it back.
If it is a bane, you attempt the check(s) to defeat it, and regardless of what happens put it back where it came from.
So...
If I find a bane and defeat it, is it removed from that location deck?
No, it goes right back where it was.
If so, if I find a bane that is a henchman and defeat it, can I close that other location?
It is not so.
If so, if I am playing solo, and my first exploration is at the Teleportation Chamber, and I encounter a Henchman, and I defeat it, and I check another location, and it has the Villain, so I encounter it, so I have to temp close my location (since until I defeat the Villain it isn't closed), so I check another random location, and find a Henchman, and defeat it, so I close that location permanently, and I temp close my location, and I defeat the Villain, then have I won on the first turn?
It is not so.
But, if the other location has a villain or henchman on top, you do at least now have some helpful information.
I am very reluctant to contradict Hawkmoon but I'm not sure that it's so cut-and-dry. To me, defeat a bane means do what you would do if you encountered it any other way. Why wouldn't you do the before and after you act steps? The closing requirement said to examine the top card of another deck. But then it tells me to try and defeat it, not just put it back where it came from.
In another thread, which I can't put my fingers on, there was a longish discussion of fighting banes at other locations. Pretty sure that you had to go through all the steps against that bane. And since you didn't summon the card, it has a proper location deck home, if you defeated a henchman that happened to be on top, couldn't you read the text that says now you may attempt to close the location it came from?
Hawkmoon's reading is probably the correct interpretation of how it's intended to work but I think maybe there's some clarification needed.
The standard wording for locations where you have to fight a monster to close a location is "summon and defeat." In the case of the Teleportation Chamber, you aren't summoning a card, so instead it just says "defeat."
I think it's supposed to be "encounter and defeat" but there wasn't enough room on the card for it (the card is incredibly cluttered already). As it is, there rules are currently set up so that the only time you attempt a check to defeat (or acquire) are card are while you're encountering it. So regardless of the intent of the Teleportation Chamber's closing effect, I think the text needs to be cleared up. As jones314 said, it's really not cut and dry.
I think this works like Alahazra and her encounter ability. Seems like we had a discussion on that, I'll see if I can drag it up. It could have relevance as to, for example, which location gets closed when you kill a villain this way.
It doesn't say check to defeat, it says defeat. I think that means it gets banished (unless otherwise stated, blah blah blah), you do the before and after you act stuff, and you get benefits for defeating it. The lack of the word encounter makes things a little murky, butI still think this is correct.
Honestly, though, I'd errata the card to say "non-villain, non-henchman" and squash this. If I had that power, I mean.
EDIT: Here's the thread.
So, assuming that this DOES count as an encounter, then you would be earning the right to close the Teleportation Chamber by defeating any villains or henchmen, which would be a moot point since defeating them closes it via it's own check to close.
Hmmm...Yeah, so I think I'd amend what I said to say instead that you do go through the encounter sequence, but that because it was an "examined" bane, it goes back where it came from.
Applying the same logic as to summoned cards and being instructed otherwise, examined cards go back where they came from unless instructed otherwise, and extend that to say the card that told you to examine has to be the one instructing you otherwise.
Which might open up those issues all over again, plus a few more. Swallowtail Festival had some of the possibility for some of this in RotR. So let's go through the possibilities with this one.
I'm at Teleportation Chamber and I have just defeated the henchman there so I am going to examine the top of another open location.
Possibility 1: That card is not a bane.
Cut and dry, the location Teleporation Chamber closes automatically, the examined card goes back where it came from.
Possibility 2: That card is a non-villain, non-henchman bane that can be defeated
If I defeat that bane, the Teleportation Chamber closes, the examined card goes back where it came from.
Possibility 3: That card is a bane that can be NOT defeated
I get something like Becalmed. I can't defeat it. The Teleportation Chamber is not closed. The examined card goes back where it came from.
Possibility 4: That card is another henchman.
If I defeat it, the Teleporation Chamber closes and I can now attempt to close the examined location. If I fail at closing the examined location, the henchman goes back on top. If I succeed at closing the examined location the henchman gets banished as part of the cards in the location deck.
Possibility 5a: That card is a villain.
I go through the normal sequence with the villain, including attempting to temporarily close the Teleportation Chamber because it is indeed open. Which means I will have to examine the top card of another (to the Teleportaiton Chamber) random open location. All that goes fine (if the second random open location is a henchman, we've covered that above). If I fail at temporarily closing the Teleporation Chamber, I could have still defeated the villain, which happens before the villain escapes, so the Teleporation Chamber, while not temporarily closed, would be permanently closed. Obviously, if I fail at defeating the villain the Teleporation Chamber is not permanently closed, though it might be temporarily closed if I succeeded at that. If I didn't, then the villain might flee to the still open in every sense of the word Teleportation Chamber.
Possibility 5b: That card is a villain and everything goes south.
All that above, except that when I go to temporarily close the Teleportation Chamber, the random other location is the villain's location again and the villain still counts as the top card, setting off an infinite loop which eventually creates a tear in the fabric of space time eventually resulting in you being Mike Selinker in an alternate reality. I'm not sure what would happen next.
Man....
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Based on that previous thread, it sounds like anything encountered via the closing requirement is still taking place at the Teleportation Chamber. So if you encounter another henchmen, you wouldn't attempt to close again in the middle of attempting to close, since you haven't resolved that yet. And when you deeat him, you've already succeeded at your attempt to close, and thus don't have to again.
I would say a Villain works the same way. It's encounter at the Teleportation Chamber, others can temp close other locations, and its original location is still used when determining where the Villain flees to. Potentially, if no one else was there to temp close it, it could end up back at the same location it was drawn from.
That's my interpretation of it based on Vic's answer.
But don't henchman now say "you may attempt to close the location this card came from"? Even if the encounter was happening at the Teleporation Chamber, it still came from the examined location.
The villain encounter rules say "If You Defeat the Villain, Close the Villain’s Location" which I would also take to mean "the location the villain came from" since "the villain's location" isn't defined explicitly in a game term.
But also, the villain encounter says "Attempt to Temporarily Close Open Locations. When a character encounters a villain, each character at any other location may immediately attempt to fulfill the When Closing requirement for his location." So, that would seem to mean that you don't get to try to temporarily close the Teleporation Chamber, but that if defeated the examined location closes.
So, that would mean someone could try to temp close the examined location, the teleportation chamber closes based on whether you defeat the villain or not (because of the closing requirement of the teleporation chamber), and everything would be right with the fabric of space-time again.
This is hilarious.
And it keeps on getting better....
Another important question: What happens if this is the only open location? Does it automatically close? (I assume so, but the way it's written, it's sounds like closing in that case is actually impossible.)
They do... but I assumed Vic's response in the linked thread above superceded that.
"Encounters happen where you are" is pretty cut-and-dry. It's weird.
That doesn't change where the bane came from. Henchmen only allow you to close the location that they are drawn from, not necessarily the location they are encountered in. I would assume the same for villains, since the rules state "close the villain's location", not "close your location".
I think the "encounters happen where you are" thing relates to location specific benefits and detriments and whether other characters can use location dependent powers. The bane you encounter stays in the location it was drawn from unless instructed otherwise.
So, Romeo, you're saying that being there is the trigger - so as long as anyone is there, the ability moves someone, ad infinitum, until that player is randomly selected and is moved away? Because that is what you're implying. A "trigger" can't be continuous like this or it never stops happening. It is missing a trigger because it doesn't list a specific event. The event can't be "a player is here" because that doesn't have a concrete point in time in which it happens. Besides, this would mean you never get to explore this location.
And if you're saying it only happens when you arrive at the Chamber, the proper wording for that would be "when you move to this location..." If saying nothing implied it only happened when you moved there, continuous effects like those that make banes more difficult would only apply for the split second in which you arrive, which makes no sense.
It is definitely missing a trigger. The error in comparing it to the light example is to not realize the effect of it being "always on". In your example with the light, the light being always on as long as you are in the room is benign. But if the location's rule was always on as long as you were at the location, you'd be constantly checking to see who gets teleported. Imagine if your light example had a light that would blink instead of just stay on. As long as you were in the room you'd have a constantly blinking light. Likewise, as long as someone was in the room you'd have a constantly teleporting effect. How often does your light blink? We'd measure that in seconds or minutes or some other measure of time. But in the game "time" is measured in turns and steps of the turn. So how often does the Teleportation Chamber "blink"? Because if it isn't "blinking" but is always on, then you'd have to say it triggers in every unit of time measured by the game:
Sam, John, Sue, Peggy, Jill and Don are playing a game. Sam is the only one at the Teleportation Chamber. It is Sam's turn. He checks to see who gets Teleported. Now it is John's turn. Sam checks to see who gets Teleported. Now it is Sue's turn. Sam checks to see who gets Teleported. Now it is Peggy's turn. Sam checks to see who gets Teleported. Now it is Jill's turn. Sam checks to see who gets Teleported. Now it is Don's turn. Sam checks to see who gets Teleported.
In fact, it is worse than that:
It is Sam's turn. The first step is Advance the Blessing Deck. He does. He is at the Teleportaion Chamber so he checks to see who gets Teleported. Assuming it wasn't Sam, it is now the "Give a Card" step. He doesn't do that, but he checks to see who gets Teleported (after all he is currently at the Teleportation Chamber). Now it is the Move step. He doesn't move, but he does he checks to see who gets Teleported (after all he is currently at the Teleportation Chamber). Now it is the explore step. He explores and then he checks to see who gets Teleported (after all he is currently at the Teleportation Chamber). He plays a blessing to explore again and then he checks to see who gets Teleported (after all he is currently at the Teleportation Chamber). Now is it is the "Attempt to Close A Location" step. He doesn't do that but he checks to see who gets Teleported (after all he is currently at the Teleportation Chamber). Now it is the End Your Turn step. As he does so he checks to see who gets Teleported (after all he is currently at the Teleportation Chamber).
And he would do that for every single step of every single player's turn.
Your light example breakdown because the light being on doesn't render the situation "unplayable" or broken. But imagine it was a death ray.
A: When in the room the death ray will come on.
B: When in the room, flip the switch and the death ray will come on.
In A, there is no way to be in the room with out the death ray being on. So there is really no way for you to be in the room, because once you are in the room you get hit with the death ray. And that is the problem.
Likewise, there is really no way to be at the Teleportation Chamber, because once you are you will constantly be checking to see who gets Teleported and eventually it will be you. That makes the location unplayable. It isn't a broken as the death ray, but it is virtually impossible to explore and find the henchman or villain there. Under those conditions your best bet to do so would seem to be in a 6 character group so that you had more random targets for it to choose. That might mean that, if on your first turn you moved to the location and explored (assuming in this understanding that moving there would trigger the effect) you've have a 5/6 shot of exploring one card in the location. And each additional step you'd have a 5/6 shot at it not choosing you. The odds that you would stay there for multiple explorations and multiple steps of multiple turns would be pretty low. And if a second character was teleported to the Teleporation Chamber, then you'd have double the checks.
So while such a sentence can be understood as "always on" it is precisely the "always on" understanding of the effect that creates the problem. It needs to have a trigger to limit the activation or otherwise the location makes any scenario it is in practically impossible.
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Passive effects don't need a trigger, active ones do. Even if it's something like "Once per turn, you may". There still needs to be something to tell you how to use the power. You're reading way too deeply into this and coming up with absurd results. Not once has there ever been an active location power that didn't have a trigger or specification of when / how often it could be done.
"It happens NOW because YOU are there" is the most vague rule/trigger I have ever heard an explanation for in a game. It happens NOW when I start my turn there? It happens NOW when I end my turn there? It happens NOW when I explore? Move there? Encounter a bane? Encounter a boon? Recharge a card? Play a spell?
All of those have very different and significant results that alter strategy. Like Hawkmoon said, without a trigger, anyone could argue that you would have to check for the teleportation every single time you did anything there short of breathing.
Echo4, literally everyone in the thread disagrees with, and that includes a number of veteran players and vocal posters. That doesn't necessarily mean your wrong, but it does mean you should reflect for a bit and take some time to seriously consider the views of the rest of the community.
This card doesn't contain text that is one every other location.* The interpretation you offer isn't at all clear, and the designers themselves have said that the need to address this card in the FAQ.
Personally, I find it infuriating that chide other people for not "Read[ing] everything before replying," when you have failed to take the time to understand why your views differ from the whole of the community.
* Again, I am excluding cards that offer modifiers to dice rolls, those operate differently.
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That's just it though -- it's an assumption. An a crazy one at that. We are reading before replying, it's that your post makes no sense. Could it be the start of your turn? Sure, who knows? They definitely mistakenly left off the trigger though. Every location active power has a trigger, and this one doesn't list one. Something is missing, and you have exactly zero valid reasons for assuming it is the start of your turn.
You tell us to read the card, and that's exactly what we're doing, and that's how we know something is missing.
We aren't putting words into your mouth, however you most certainly are putting words into the card's mouth text.
You're creating triggers on your own with no explanation of why those are the triggers other than "it's obvious". Answer this then, how is it obvious, when there is not a single precedent for it?
If you're going to make up rules for how a card works, you should back it up.
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Hey kids, chill. We'll talk about this.
Also, this may be my favorite rules question ever.
@Hawk,
I think you misunderstood the light example. First, I never said it was "always on". I said your presence always activates it.Also, in my first post I did list among the required assumptions that you must assume the event can only trigger once per turn. Seems like you guys just read the first few lines of something before you jump to conclusions and I think that's why you're not understanding the rule.
And, also, I did say in my light example that the "light goes off again" but thanks for clarifying.
The rest of your long example is flawed from the first sentence because you never read my entire first post. Amend your example as such: Sam triggers it; John is selected and teleported to the room with Sam. Now Sam can explore and finish his turn as I stated in my first post. It's not John's turn because Sams turn never concluded. NOWHERE ON THE CARD does it suggest that Sams turn ends after the teleportation. And I never said it which means you just made it up so you could argue with me about it. Ridiculous. It's called reading: left to right, top to bottom. The small pieces are called words, and you can put several words together to form a sentence...just don't put words where there aren't any and you should be fine.
Good luck with your game - mine works just fine. I'm done. Peace.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean at all to offend or upset you. And I wasn't trying to "argue" with you either. I thought we were just discussing it. If anything I said came off as hostile towards you, I apologize. I didn't mean for it to sound that way.
My example was a bit absurd, but I was trying to demonstrate exactly what could happen (in my view at least) if the card was interpreted that way. If it seemed to you that my example was making fun of your idea or demeaning to you in anyway, please forgive me, as I meant no disrespect to you.
I did read your entire post, and I'm sorry if it seemed I didn't and wasn't listening to your entire point. I actually had to write my post twice because the first time the site seemed to "hiccup" when I clicked submit. So I believe something I had written in the first version I didn't include in the second. And that is that there is no rule that says a location effect should only apply once per turn. In fact, there are many location powers that do apply multiple times per turn. And it is precisely wording that ties them to a certain part of the turn sequence that limits them to only happening one time per turn.
As to my reasoning, I wasn't trying to suggest that any of the turns ended after the teleportation effect, I was simply cutting out the rest of their turns for simplicity sake. I could have been more clear about that, so I apologize.
I am honestly really sorry if anything I wrote upset you. Please forgive me if it did. I honestly do hope you enjoy your game, because it is a great game and meant to be enjoyed. Perhaps one day we might even get to enjoy it together.
I do hope you'll come back to this forum and post again, even if not in this thread. Personally, I think I'll just wait this thread out until Mike et al give a clarification.
The issue isn't whether or not your game is broken or how you choose to play the game in your particular group. Your game isn't broken because you have made a number of assumptions about how the card works that aren't on the card. You assume that the card triggers both when you start and when you move to the location. You assume that if it triggers when you start at a location, it then overrides normal rules of movement.
Of course you can make it work that way, but that's not how the rules on the card are written, nor is it clear if it is how the designers intend the game to work. At the end of the day your interpretation of the cards may actually be right, but we need the cards to actually tell us that.
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If it works for you, great. In the end, whatever is fun for you is what matters. I don't think any of us were trying to make it seem (although some of us probably sounded like it) like we thought you were in the wrong to play it that way. Just that we didn't want to make an assumption (for our own play, or especially for someone who came to the forums looking specifically for a clarification instead of having to make guesses and assumptions) as far as what Paizo's intent was for how it works, and instead were looking for either a clarification from them, or some kind of precedent that basically noone could deny.
Heck, if you want to play without even using locations and just throw a bunch of random cards together and roll some random dice, I say go for it. Well, actually I'd say you probably wouldn't want to buy this game because you aren't doing anything with it that warrants the price, and just to buy a 52 card deck and a dice set, but you get the point.
All that being said, I fully disagree that it isn't named Sam I Am. Everything is name Sam I Am. Everything.
Echo4 Romeo's interpretation poses a harsh scenario for a solo character. Each time you move to the Teleportation Chamber you would only have 1/3 of a chance to stay there.