sohei 1 fighter 2

[Yuukale]

If I have weapon training from fighter and I take 1 lvl as sohei, do I get to flurry with that weapon or do I have to wait until I get sohei 6 ?

[NikolaiJuno]

No. The ability that allows Sohei to flurry is not gained until level 6.

[Akerlof]

Yuukale wrote:

If I have weapon training from fighter and I take 1 lvl as sohei, do I get to flurry with that weapon or do I have to wait until I get sohei 6 ?

I'm thinking you have to wait until level 6 as a Sohei. You don't get the Weapon Training class ability until 6th level as a Sohei, and that's what grants you the ability to flurry with the expanded list of weapons. Not the weapon Training you get from Fighter levels.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

Have to wait until level 6. The two features have the same name but they are not the same ability and therefore do not count as each other. This kind of name overlap happens often. Just pretend that Paizo's Design crew has better imagination when it comes to naming things, and treat them as two different abilities with different names.

[James Risner]

Yuukale wrote:

If I have weapon training from fighter and I take 1 lvl as sohei, do I get to flurry with that weapon or do I have to wait until I get sohei 6 ?

No, since the two abilities do not count the same for each other.

[Avoron]

You don't get the ability to flurry with weapon training weapons until sixth level.

As for the other issue, I disagree with the previous posters here.

I think this FAQ implies that an equivalent ability does in fact count as the ability itself. It is referring to archetypes, but I think the principal applies here:

"If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability."

"At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature"

"A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training."

If a sohei has weapon training in a weapon, it can use flurry of blows with that weapon. It doesn't specify where the weapon training has to come from. Maybe you think it should, but it doesn't.

[James Risner]

Avoron wrote:

If a sohei has weapon training in a weapon, it can use flurry of blows with that weapon. It doesn't specify where the weapon training has to come from. Maybe you think it should, but it doesn't.

But another FAQ does specify that abilities are written as single class. You are expanding this to work in a multi class character.

This exact question comes up about once every two months and often gets back and forth discussion. If you take the stance that it does work, then you are not likely to appreciate the implications of the single class ruling.

[Calth]

James Risner wrote:

Avoron wrote:

If a sohei has weapon training in a weapon, it can use flurry of blows with that weapon. It doesn't specify where the weapon training has to come from. Maybe you think it should, but it doesn't.

But another FAQ does specify that abilities are written as single class. You are expanding this to work in a multi class character.

This exact question comes up about once every two months and often gets back and forth discussion. If you take the stance that it does work, then you are not likely to appreciate the implications of the single class ruling.

Except that the myrmidarch FAQ makes this untrue. Sohei weapon training is fighter weapon training for all purposes, and stacks with fighter weapon training. It is all a single ability, so the flurry modification would apply to all sources of the ability.

Magus, Myrmidarch: Do my weapon training and armor training abilities stack if I multiclass into fighter?

Yes.
Armor training requires more explanation as to how they stack:
Fighter armor training 1 (gained at 3rd level) also gives a fighter the ability to move at normal speed in medium armor. A myrmidarch gains armor training 1 at 8th level, and also gains this ability to overcome the speed reduction of medium armor.
Fighter armor training 2 (gained at 7th level) also gives a fighter the ability to move at normal speed in heavy armor. A myrmidarch gains armor training 2 at 14th level, and also gains this ability to overcome the speed reduction of heavy armor.
A multiclassed character with armor training 1 from fighter (3rd level) and armor training 1 from myrmidarch (8th level) gains the ability to overcome the speed reduction of heavy armor (as it is the equivalent of armor training 2, which grants that ability).

[James Risner]

The two weapon trainings are absolutely not remotely the same except in name. Myrmidarch is talking about identical abilities.

This has been heatedly debated and locked several threads. There isn't anything new you can say to win this debate that hasn't been said already.

[Calth]

James Risner wrote:

The two weapon trainings are absolutely not remotely the same except in name. Myrmidarch is talking about identical abilities.

Weapon Training (Ex)

At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon.

It calls out as the fighter feature, just like myrmidarch. Its the same ability.

[James Risner]

This will devolve into a mess.

Example of previous mess.

The Sohei doesn't get Weapon Training until Sohei 6 despite having Weapon Training from Fighter levels before that time. He may not Flurry until he has Weapon Training from Sohei levels.

[Calth]

James Risner wrote:

This will devolve into a mess.

Example of previous mess.

The Sohei doesn't get Weapon Training until Sohei 6 despite having Weapon Training from Fighter levels before that time. He may not Flurry until he has Weapon Training from Sohei levels.

And that's not in question and irrelevant. A sohei 6/fighter X can flurry with any of its weapon groups and the weapon training stacks for bonus value purposes since sohei training is fighter training.

[James Risner]

Calth wrote:

And that's not in question and irrelevant. A sohei 6/fighter X can flurry with any of its weapon groups and the weapon training stacks for bonus value purposes since sohei training is fighter training.

It certainly is question in this thread since it is asking about "sohei 1 fighter 2" not "sohei 6 fighter 2".

[RegUS PatOff]

At 6th level, the Sohei receives Weapon Training as the fighter class feature.

At 6th level, the Sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.

IMHO: A Sohei 1/Fighter 2 has Weapon Training. But such a character cannot flurry with weapons from Weapon Training until Sohei 6th level.

[Seranov]

I am like 90% sure that, no, a Sohei 1/Fighter 2 does not have Weapon Training.

• A Sohei 1/Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 would have Weapon Training I (but only in a single weapon), but couldn't flurry with it.
  
• A Sohei 6/Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 would have Weapon Training II (again, only in a single weapon) AND could flurry with it. This can be circumvented with Martial Versatility, but is still a feat tax.
  
• A Sohei 6/Fighter (no archetype) 5 would get Weapon Training II, and could flurry with weapons from either weapon group they choose.

Weapon Training is the same ability, except the Monk one also tacks on the ability to flurry/use ki strikes with that weapon. The only contention here is that, instead of level 4 (as a Weapon Master Fighter 3/Sohei 1), you need to be a BARE MINIMUM of level 9 to pull this off.

[Nefreet]

You would have to be a minimum of Sohei-6/Fighter-5 (or Sohei-6/Weapon Master-3) for this to work.

The two abilities (most likely) stack, allowing you to Flurry with different weapon groups eventually, because the Sohei ability references the Fighter ability.

This stance is supported by the Myrmidarch FAQ (already referenced) the Class Features FAQ ("If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability"), and by SKR's philosophy that "abilities should either be distinctly the same, or distinctly different".

But, obviously, people disagree.

[Imbicatus]

You get a class feature when you get it. A sohei 1 weapon master fighter 2 has no weapon training at all, as the only get weapon training as fighter 3.

A sohei 1 weapon master 3 has weapon training with one weapon, but they cannot flurry with it because they did not get weapon training from sohei, and it is the sohei weapon training that alters flurry.

A sohei 6 weapon master 3 has weapon training 2 with a single weapon, and weapon training 1 with whatever group they took with sohei, and can flurry with both that weapon, and the sohei weapon group.

[RegUS PatOff]

I was assuming some kind of archetype to allow Weapon Training at Fighter level 2. Reviewing, there is no such archetype. Closest is Fighter (Weapon Master) which Imbicatus identified.

I agree with Imbicatus' comment: you get a class feature when you get it.

However, a Fighter (Weapon Master) does not have the standard Weapon Training ability. Instead they have a specific ability (replacing Armor Training) that mimics the standard Weapon Training, but for one weapon only. It progresses every 4 levels after 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at 19th level.

The Sohei Weapon Training appears at level 6, and progresses to an extra weapons group and +2/+1 at 12th, to the maximum 3 weapon groups at +3/+2/+1 at 18th.

Given the disparate progressions, and the non-standard Weapon Master Weapon Training class feature, the question is, do these stack? I think RAW these have to be maintained as separate pools of Weapon Training that do not stack, but the balance issue is not huge.

Consider - no stacking:
Fighter (Weapon Master) 7/Sohei Monk 7 would then have
F(WM) Weapon Training (one weapon only) +2
SM Weapon Training (one group of weapons) +1 - able to flurry

Stacking F(WM) 7/SM 7:
F(WM) Weapon Training (one weapon only) +3 - able to flurry
SM Weapon Training (one group of weapons) +2 - able to flurry

Starting split level results assuming stacking:
Fighter (Weapon Master) 3/Sohei Monk 6
F(WM) Weapon Training (one weapon only) +1 +1 = +2 - able to flurry
SM Weapon Training (one group of weapons) +1 - able to flurry

This progesses to either:
F(WM) 14/SM 6
F(WM) Weapon Training (one weapon only) +3 +1 = +4 - able to flurry
SM Weapon Training (one group of weapons) +1 - able to flurry

Or to:
F(WM) 3/SM 17
F(WM) Weapon Training (one weapon only) +1 +2 = +3 - able to flurry
SM Weapon Training (one group of weapons) +2 - able to flurry
SM Weapon Training (2nd group of weapons) +1 - able to flurry

IMO: Not a very powerful combination at either end of the spectrum.

[dragonhunterq]

As mentioned in that unholy mess, my view is that the weapon training abilities are functionally the same, but the ability to flurry with weapon training is part and parcel of the sohei 6 weapon training ability.

Once you hit sohei 6 flurry away to your hearts content with your fighter 2 weapon training.

[NikolaiJuno]

I am of the assumption that Sohei Weapon Master only works to increase the bonus on Weapon Master weapon training if level 3 Weapon master is taken at a lower level than Sohei6 is.

[TGMaxMaxer]

NikolaiJuno wrote:

I am of the assumption that Sohei Weapon Master only works to increase the bonus on Weapon Master weapon training if level 3 Weapon master is taken at a lower level than Sohei6 is.

That cannot be the case, as the Devs have said that you should be able to build the character in any order (other than pre-reqs for things like feats/prestige classes) and have it be the same result.

Sohei 6/Weapon Master 3 has to result in the exact same character as Weapon Master 3/Sohei 6. (provided pre-reqs are still able to be met).

As to the actual question in the OP, you only get to use the alternate class feature if you have the alternate feature. So, to flurry you need the Sohei 6 feature and any other combination of other Weapon Training you happen to find convenient.

[NikolaiJuno]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

That cannot be the case, as the Devs have said that you should be able to build the character in any order (other than pre-reqs for things like feats/prestige classes) and have it be the same result.

Weapons training does not work that way. You get +1 to every previous weapon training.

That is the way Sohei WT works. Weapon Master WT does not give +1 to every previus WT. "In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each." IF you take a weapon group later how can it be a "previous weapon group"?
The order in which you take weapon groups definitely does change the result of the character, or WT doesn't work.

Similarly a character built as Fighter5 with WT in firearms followed by Sohei6 with WT in crossbows will have +2 firearms/+1 in crossbows, and absolutely can not be achieved with Sohei6/Fighter5.

Unless there is some official rule that states that weapons training can be reordered whenever you gain a new one that cannot be the case.