Should we avoid intelligent or “artifact” items?


RPG Superstar™ General Discussion


Apologies if someone all ready asked this somewhere, but I couldn’t find it. I can’t see that it’s addressed in the contest rules either.

Like the title says, I just want to ask if items which are either intelligent or an “artifact” allowed?

If so, how should we handle the “construction requirements”?

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"Artifact" is an entirely different category of magic item, and therefore not a valid entry any more than a potion or wondrous item would be.

I think someone asked about intelligent items, but I don't remember the answer.

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I believe that both are not allowed. Each has their own section in the Rule books; thus, they both fall under those two categories. I might be wrong, but it also goes along the same lines as the 'cursed' items- have their own category separate from those allowed this year.

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I'll paraphrase the official answer to this question I read earlier:

Go read the categories in the core rules, if you find intelligent items or artifacts among the weapons, armor, shields, rings, rods or staves sections then they are fair game.

As for construction requirements always follow the template provided.

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RPG Superstar 2016!

Round 1: Design an Artifact in 500 words
Round 2: Design a Mythic Monster that Defends an Artifact from Round 1 (not your own artifact)
Round 3: Design a Map of a Location where an Artifact from Round 1 (not your own) is Defended by the Monster from Round 2 (also, can't be your own).
Round 4: Submit a Mythic-level Adventure Proposal that Involves Going After an Artifact (any artifact, new or old, existing or from Round 1, etc.)

Now that would be ***SUPERSTAR***

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Lucus Palosaari wrote:

RPG Superstar 2016!

Round 1: Design an Artifact in 500 words
Round 2: Design a Mythic Monster that Defends an Artifact from Round 1 (not your own artifact)
Round 3: Design a Map of a Location where an Artifact from Round 1 (not your own) is Defended by the Monster from Round 2 (also, can't be your own).
Round 4: Submit a Mythic-level Adventure Proposal that Involves Going After an Artifact (any artifact, new or old, existing or from Round 1, etc.)

Now that would be ***SUPERSTAR***

I would skip participating or voting on that. It simply is not a challenge to make an artifact... It's design without restraint while one of the most important things to learn in RPG design is restraint.

I love the concept of Mythic but I wish that there was a restriction on when you could activate your Mythic Cheese. My guys were bored with playing speedtag on Wrath of the Righteous until I dialed it to 15 and started throwing CR +9 encounters on them. Then instead of speed tag it was actually challenging fights. I won't run Mythic again unless they fix it in some manner, Hero points work much better.

For Round 3 you'd have 32 maps and 16 monsters...

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Well, to properly gauge a good artifact, embedding it into a story and giving it a reason to be and its own defined limits (yes, even artifacts have limits, a given power level), suggesting ways the artifact may become a hindrance... That's also a nice challenge :)

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GM_Solspiral wrote:
Lucus Palosaari wrote:
RPG Superstar 2016 - Artiacts
I would skip participating or voting on that. It simply is not a challenge to make an artifact... It's design without restraint while one of the most important things to learn in RPG design is restraint.

I would have to utterly disagree with you in that it is NOT a challenge, and exactly for what you said --- trying to make a proper artifact is much more about having adequate safe-guards and restraints on it to make it a) interesting enough to be sought after b) properly powerful enough to be an artifact and not just a really expensive/powerful magic item c) not so powerful as to be game-breaking. The simple question of "How could this thing exist in a world without it causing XXX?" being something the author needs to get into the design, because it can't just be in the fluff.

The most interesting artifacts have as many drawbacks and problems with possessing them as boons they grant. Building an adventure around one (it doesn't need to be retrieving it, it may be destroying it, preventing it from falling into hands of the BigBad, or merely confirming whether it even exists, etc.

Quote:
For Round 3 you'd have 32 maps and 16 monsters...

I was figuring the monster and its artifact would have to be a pair (so there would be only 16 possible choices overall), and that neither the artifact nor the monster could be your own (limiting you to choosing between only 14 possible pairs). The additional 16 artifacts would not be viable options for Round 3.

Forcing the contestants to work with an artifact/monster pair based on two other people's designs is/would be part of the challenge. Its not uncommon, I would argue, either as often a writer is needing to set an adventure in a location or about a subject that was designed by someone else and must both mesh with that, while also being original.

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For the record too, the comment was mostly joking. ;) But I think it would be interesting (though likely terrible in its own ways).

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Sorry just trying to curtail the Superstar = Superpowered fallacy...

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Andrew Marlowe wrote:
Go read the categories in the core rules, if you find intelligent items or artifacts among the weapons, armor, shields, rings, rods or staves sections then they are fair game.

That's a good general rule.

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The PFSRD has at least one intelligent weapon mixed in with the more mundane magic weapons. An oversight, perhaps?


Orloff wrote:
The PFSRD has at least one intelligent weapon mixed in with the more mundane magic weapons. An oversight, perhaps?

The PRD or d20pfsrd? And which item?

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Regarding the artifacts and mythic adventures discussed above, it makes sense for Paizo to test the contestants' design skills on the type of entries they actually need their freelancers to write. They don't publish artifacts very often, and very probably there won't be a lot of mythic content in future releases either.

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Mikko Kallio wrote:
Regarding the artifacts and mythic adventures discussed above, it makes sense for Paizo to test the contestants' design skills on the type of entries they actually need their freelancers to write. They don't publish artifacts very often, and very probably there won't be a lot of mythic content in future releases either.

better get those psychic monsters ready for next year since its right after occult adventures

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Jeff Lee wrote:
Orloff wrote:
The PFSRD has at least one intelligent weapon mixed in with the more mundane magic weapons. An oversight, perhaps?
The PRD or d20pfsrd? And which item?

Blood's Edge, on the pfsrd.


Orloff wrote:
Jeff Lee wrote:
Orloff wrote:
The PFSRD has at least one intelligent weapon mixed in with the more mundane magic weapons. An oversight, perhaps?
The PRD or d20pfsrd? And which item?
Blood's Edge, on the pfsrd.

The d20pfsrd is a commercial site, and not a Paizo offering. If you want the official listing of items, refer to the Core Rulebook or the PRD, where the lists are reproduced as they are presented in the book.

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It's a bit of a grey zone, though, since there aren't any intelligent items presented in the book (in the Core Rulebook, at least, as far as I can find with a control-f of the word "intelligent" around the equipment section). At the beginning of the ring, rod, and wondrous item headings, it says there is a 1% chance that any ring, rod, or wondrous item is intelligent, but lists no examples. Later on, there is an intelligent item heading, but it just lists design rules, not specific examples.

In Ultimate Equipment, specific intelligent items get their own heading, but the Round 1 submission rules explicitly caution against using UE's formatting.

I wouldn't go for it myself, since I don't want to risk being DQ'd, but an argument could be made.

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Mikko Kallio wrote:
Regarding the artifacts and mythic adventures discussed above, it makes sense for Paizo to test the contestants' design skills on the type of entries they actually need their freelancers to write. They don't publish artifacts very often, and very probably there won't be a lot of mythic content in future releases either.

Yeah, rare(r) for artifacts in modules, entire Adventure Paths are written around/for them or feature the artifacts. Mythic is likely to only have the one-off of the Wrath AP unless there is a sudden resurgence in interest in Mythic from some alternate product they produce.

That said, if a module is no place for an artifact, you just have to up the reward.

So for RPG Superstar 2018, the 10th Anniversary Round, you have the standard Open Call-style as above, but the reward is getting to work with 4 other authors + 1 "special guest" <we'll just assume SKR will have his new projects in hand by then and just have plenty of time to do this, for instance ;-)> on an entire AP, involving the artifact introduced by the contestant.

And those additional 4 authors? We have each be former contestants of the Top 4 (or Top 8 if needed) of RPG Superstar 2008 to 2017, chosen by the masses by having them compete in a Special Bonus Round, where they submit their own proposals for the other chapters of the AP, that is again based on the winner of 2018's entry, with the "special guest" being the 6th author and project leader on the whole thing overall.

That's my fan-fiction at least :D

And of course it could almost certainly never work out for the numerous reasons people will point out below... but still!

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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
That's a good general rule.

I always take that kind of response from Owen as his own take on SKR's Wondrous Advice #27 - An Awesome Item May Disregard the Previous Advice


Artifacts are clearly separate although many of them are weapons, staves, etc seems like they do have their own category.

I'm a little less sure about intelligence though. I don't think it's clear that has its own category. Seems more like something you add to any magic item rather than something seperate. Might be wrong there though.

Safest to stay clear by the sounds of it.

Orloff wrote:
The PFSRD has at least one intelligent weapon mixed in with the more mundane magic weapons. An oversight, perhaps?

Just out of interest, which one? Edit: all ready answered.

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Artifacts are not mere magical items: they do not have Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Forge Ring, Craft Staff, or Craft Rod as a construction requirement because they don't have construction requirements.

They also tend to be plot-specific in a way that doesn't favor the single-item format for RPG Superstar - Without the context of a campaign, they're just overpowered items. That let their author avoid one of the hardest parts of item design: pricing.

I won't speak for the judges, but Artifacts are flirting hard with DQ.

Intelligent items are legal: an intelligent sword is still a specific magic sword. But I'd avoid it for a number of reasons:


  • Since intelligent items have personalities, it can raise the question of if you're designing a magic weapon or an NPC. This is similar to how, in previous years, Wondrous Items that could be used to make attack rolls raised the question of if it was truly a wondrous item, or a magic weapon shoehorned into the contest.
  • There is minimal precedent for the crafting of intelligent items. Construction requirements become awkward.
  • There are guidelines for the pricing of intelligent items, but they aren't exactly rigorous and need lots of manual adjustment.
  • Is your item cool because of what it does, or what it is? Would it still be cool as a non-intelligent item with the same powers?

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Orloff wrote:
The PFSRD has at least one intelligent weapon mixed in with the more mundane magic weapons. An oversight, perhaps?

PFSRD cites blood's edge from a book in the Adventure Path product line, not a book in the Pathfinder RPG product line, which means it's less representative of the style explicitly referenced in the rules or may be designed to fill specific roles in a plot.

While PFSRD and Archives of Nethys are handy tools to get some inspiration about items that stretch the boundaries, they're not great sources when trying to interpret the boundaries themselves. The official PRD, on the other hand, consists almost entirely of content from books in the RPG line. (I think the Technology Guide is the only exception, and it's irrelevant for this contest.)

Orloff wrote:
there aren't any intelligent items presented in the book (in the Core Rulebook, at least, as far as I can find with a control-f of the word "intelligent" around the equipment section).

There are no specific intelligent items in the CRB. None of the allowed magic item categories in the CRB contain intelligent items.

Orloff wrote:
At the beginning of the ring, rod, and wondrous item headings, it says there is a 1% chance that any ring, rod, or wondrous item is intelligent, but lists no examples. Later on, there is an intelligent item heading, but it just lists design rules, not specific examples.

That's a GM tool for random treasure generation and has no bearing on the design of the item itself. The 1% chance is that any magic ring, rod, or wondrous item as described in the list of items also has GM- or randomly determined intelligent item abilities; that same paragraph provides a 30% chance that the magic item contains clues to its function in its design.

Notably, the Intelligent Items section of Ultimate Equipment is in the same chapter as cursed items and artifacts, neither of which are allowed in RPG Superstar. Nor does the Superstar-provided statblock template allow for the alignment, senses, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, ego, and language attributes required by intelligent items.

In lieu of a forthright clarification from the judges, these seem to be very large clues to not submit an intelligent item.

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Garrett Guillotte wrote:
The Technology Guide is the only exception, and it's irrelevant for this contest.

Or is it?

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Jacob W. Michaels wrote:
Garrett Guillotte wrote:
The Technology Guide is the only exception, and it's irrelevant for this contest.

Or is it?

Yes! Magic chainsaws and laser guns!

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Ross Byers wrote:
Jacob W. Michaels wrote:
Garrett Guillotte wrote:
The Technology Guide is the only exception, and it's irrelevant for this contest.

Or is it?

Yes! Magic chainsaws and laser guns!

Obviously, an item with a Numeria vibe would have to be very cool and done in good taste to advance. Then again, any item should fulfill these criteria. Do the contest rules state that these items are not allowed? I don't think so. Niche, yes, disallowed/irrelevant, no. Bear in mind that last year, Robert Brookes made it to the top 4 with an encounter entry that had a strong Numeria vibe. I don't think Robert would call that irrelevant.

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Mikko Kallio wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Jacob W. Michaels wrote:
Garrett Guillotte wrote:
The Technology Guide is the only exception, and it's irrelevant for this contest.

Or is it?

Yes! Magic chainsaws and laser guns!
Obviously, an item with a Numeria vibe would have to be very cool and done in good taste to advance. Then again, any item should fulfill these criteria. Do the contest rules state that these items are not allowed? I don't think so. Niche, yes, disallowed/irrelevant, no.

If I thought it was allowable, I would've entered a technological item. I love 'em! But the Technology Guide is not required to make things with a Numerian or high-tech vibe.

There's nothing in the Superstar rules prohibiting technological items just like there's nothing prohibiting intelligent items, but to stat a new unique technological item you'd have to break the template to accommodate usage charges, power supplies, and/or craft DCs. You'd also have to add Craft Technological Arms and Armor and lab construction requirements. This means you're making a technological item with magic abilities, not a specific magic item. You could rules-lawyer your way into saying that follows the letter of the rules, and I'll wish you luck with the judges.

Otherwise, if you're applying magical abilities to an existing technological item to create a hybrid item (also not on the list of allowed item types in the rules), the Technology Guide rules aren't a factor because enhancements to existing technological items are created the same was as any other magic item. They don't have special pricing rules or requirements; the proverbial +1 flaming longsword could be a +1 flaming chainsaw and all that changes is how much the base weapon costs.

So for Round 1, either the Technology Guide isn't relevant because using it breaks the template to make an item that leaves the contest's scope, or it's not relevant because its rules don't change anything about the item creation process in the CRB.

Quote:
Bear in mind that last year, Robert Brookes made it to the top 4 with an encounter entry that had a strong Numeria vibe. I don't think Robert would call that irrelevant.

And it was one of my favorites! But since Robert created that encounter before the Technology Guide existed, I'd argue it couldn't be less relevant in that example.

2014's Round 4 had a list of allowed sources. If this year's encounter round includes such a list and the Technology Guide is covered by it, it'll be relevant then. Even then, Robert's encounter is a great demonstration of how to create an alien crash site with androids without treading far from the core rules and bestiaries.


The round 1 rules don't contain an unambiguous statement that a nonmagical weapon would be prohibited.

A technological weapon would be even more hard mode than a staff, though.

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Garrett Guillotte wrote:
If I thought it was allowable, I would've entered a technological item. I love 'em! But the Technology Guide is not required to make things with a Numerian or high-tech vibe.

Fair enough. You're very probably right that it would have been a bad idea to submit an item that requires Craft Technological Arms and Armor to construct.

However, what I was thinking about when I wrote my reply was true magic items that interact with some of the rules introduced in the Technology Guide. It could be something like a technology-sundering greatsword, causing glitches and whatnot in weapons created with Craft Technological Arms and Armor. Valid RPGSS entry? Yes, as far as I know. Involves rules from the TG? Yes, very much so. So my point still stands, the TG is relevant for round 1.

(My comment about Robert's encounter was only to point out that many RPGSS fans do seem to think high-tech is relevant within the context of the contest, but we seem to agree on that. :)

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Take a look at my staff in the runner-up items as something that I think played by the contest rules and used the Technology Guide. I decided not to enter it, but I don't think there's any reason you couldn't overlay magic on a weapon or armor in that book, or use radiation/glitch rules, even if you couldn't create a new technological item.

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DeciusBrutus wrote:

The round 1 rules don't contain an unambiguous statement that a nonmagical weapon would be prohibited.

A technological weapon would be even more hard mode than a staff, though.

I have to disagree. Right at the top of the page:

The Rules Page wrote:
Open Call: Design a Magic Item

And then again at the first sentence of the paragraph:

The Rules Page wrote:
Design a compelling magic item

So all magic items submitted should take over their users and compel them to do something!

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