Has anyone had any experience playing full support in the card game?
I dislike very much playing clerics in most games that have other healing options but one day, to satisfy my friend, I tried out Kyra. But I set her up in my own special way- mostly out of protest- and played her full support.
And wow was it the most fun everyone had ever had at the table.
I played blessings left and right. Normally, at least two blessings went out between each of my turns, as well as the occasional support spell. Often, when it got to my turn, I would only have like 1-2 cards and would have to cure myself- sometimes twice with a power AND a spell. Once I got a weapon, I would occasionally explore, but most of the time, I was watching OTHER character's turns far more closely than my own. I was their safety net. I made them feel like they could take on anything and they discarded cards to explore like they were nothing because they knew if a tough check came up, I would be there to see them through and heal back their discarded cards.
As we progressed, I increased her blessings and spells and increased hand size. There were a few times I would push to explore locations with blessings or spells to give me a chance to acquire them, but otherwise, I was watching the entire table, taking stock of what was going on and mentally considering how my hand would make the other players more successful.
I am wondering if some of the new characters like the Oracle would work even better played this way, since there are no weapons or armor to clog up my hand. Has anyone had experience with this style of play? If so, how did it work out and did you find some niche that worked for you?
It's interesting that you went full support with Kyra---as a melee-competent character, there's nothing keeping you from safely exploring a lot yourself, though as you've noticed, being a font of blessings-and-cures is enough to pull one's weight.
I think you benefit most from playing in a full-support style when either
(a) there is a big gap between how well you deal with encounters and how well the other characters do, such that it's better to use your blessings to buff when possible (or just hand off to the others), and theirs to explore when possible. This can either be because you're mediocre at a big chunk of encounters (Seltyiel) or because someone else is a monster (Jirelle/Ranzak/etc in S&S with a Tricorne)
or
(b) building your character to safely explore would make you less useful than building your character with a plan to mostly support, and explore 1/turn tops.
(b) comes up with characters like 0/few weapon bards and other casters (like Siwar/Meliski/Radillo), where if you want to be able to safely explore more than 1/turn, you need to fill up many of your spell slots with attack spells, which might be less worthwhile than just taking mostly/all support spells (Cures on bards, Auguries/etc. on wizards) and going full support.
*The Oracle (like other spell/blessing heavy characters) is good at support, but note that her power to use any card to scout means that there's really minimal downside to building her more well-rounded with a decent allotment of attack spells---she can always use them to scout for others as needed, so there's less marginal benefit to building her with a fully support-focused deck.
Actually, as Alahazra (and still back in Ad1), a very large part of my role is supporting. I'm running a couple of cures - was three, briefly - which doesn't leave much space for attack spells, and d4 strength means I can't really risk running into the villain empty-handed. But I can bless with abandon, often picking the blessings out of the discard pile in exchange for spells, and I spend half my time yelling at the other players like a traffic cop with a doctor's bag - Deal with that henchman! Ignore that item! Stand over there! Don't do that! Who needs healing?!
I played S&S Lini through RotR to try out re-useable Toads with Restoration. I find S&S Lini poor at combat, so built her for absolute support, and I think I can say that she is better at it than anyone else in terms of raw overall support power (rather than just one thing, like just healing or just check buffing).
The combo is as follows: At the start of someone else's turn, use Toad to fetch Restoration from your discard pile. Use another Toad to fetch your other Resto. Play one Resto on yourself, and use the other Restoration on another player at your location. You are now back where you started except that your Resto's are waiting to be discarderd (per the errata) and the other player has two more cards - so, no cost. You do this every turn that isn't yours. You can move around once using a Giant Badger (to be able to affect who you want), and you can Cure and/or cast Aid once each per round. Never make a recharge check. On your turn, you fetch the spells back with Toads and re-draw the Toads / Giant Badger with Restorations and / or resetting your hand.
It should be said, though, that while I like to play support characters and I love cool combos, this got really boring. S&S Lini doesn't really do much herself, particularly if her spell slots are taken by support.
I prefer to play support characters that still can hold their own, such as a Lem that can buff himself to be able to handle a check or two on his turn.
EDIT: Oh yeah, in the combo, you can also play two spells for free instead of letting others draw cards. toad yourself for a Resto, then Toad for whatever spell, say cure, and then Resto yourself for the Toads back. You can then do it another time with the other Resto. So, every turn, you can either let a player draw two, or cast two spells for free (usually Aid and Cure).
Dunno if anyone's keeping track--doubt it!--but I've made my share of posts on this board about how much I love acting as support. I agree with Orbis, that I wanna be able to make a check or two of my own and not go full-bore do-nothing buff-bot, but I always prefer throwing my cards towards someone else's heavy lifting. That's teamwork! And I'm still -doing- stuff, just not as the most active participant. If I'm playing as Lem and I start my turn with only 2 cards in hand, I got to interact with the game a lot on everyone else's turn! The mental calculations are more important to me than physically rolling the dice.
So as long as I can spend my blessings/allies and get my free explore each turn, I don't really feel my time's been wasted by using more of my cards on the other player than myself. Starting a turn with an empty-handed Lem just means I was EXTRA HELPFUL. :D Maybe my opinion'd be different it we were playing 6 character games, but with 2 I'm perfectly happy to sit back and watch the others shine, chucking them a d4+2 whenever I'm able.
If you don't mind a link, wrote a short ode about this on tumblr, where I blog basically incessantly about Pathfinder every time a new AP comes out a few weeks back. I like Lem, but I love Damiel because you have to play a little smarter and do things that fit the situation. Lem recharges a card basically whenever a check's slightly questionable, Damiel needs to keep in mind what has happened, what is happening, and what's likely to happen, so that he has as many useful cards on hand for when things go down. Very satisfying to have the exact right thing in your toolbox to help someone else. It's fun to use Potion of the Ocean to defeat a villain with no fuss, it's MORE fun when you use it on your partner Jirelle for the same purpose.
Say it all the time, so it's probably boring by now, but S&S has been really satisfying with how essential it makes utility. Felt a lot less need for spells like Find Traps in RoRL, when Masterwork tools were good for almost everything for more than half the game. Now I'm almost paralyzed with choice, a whole buffet of specific-use items laid out from me and I want to take them all, but can't. I didn't reach that point with a maxed-item Merisiel until basically the end of RoRL, where I was weighing Wand of Enervation against Revelation Quill against 2x Magic Spyglass, etc. With Damiel, I was a support beast before the end of the B scenarios.
Tried Alahazra for the same reason, but, not having played any casters except Seoni at the time, I couldn't find a good rhythm for her attack spells. Now I've got a whole play of RoRL under my belt and would like to go back to her. With those deck manipulation powers, she's a well-oiled helping machine. Right up my alley.
Actually, as Alahazra (and still back in Ad1), a very large part of my role is supporting. I'm running a couple of cures - was three, briefly - which doesn't leave much space for attack spells, and d4 strength means I can't really risk running into the villain empty-handed. But I can bless with abandon, often picking the blessings out of the discard pile in exchange for spells, and I spend half my time yelling at the other players like a traffic cop with a doctor's bag - Deal with that henchman! Ignore that item! Stand over there! Don't do that! Who needs healing?!
Alahazra has a base power feat that allows her to pull any Divine card by trading it in for another one. I never run out of Cures with her and I only put 2 in the deck. I'd actually pare it down to one if I were feeling gutsy, but there are situations where she'd be burying her only one and then she breaks apart.
(2 Attack/2 Cure/1 Support spell)She can do this every turn. If you need more than 1 Cure spell a turn then I question your team's tactics, and whether or not you could ever get through most scenarios. (After all, spending actions in your hand is still spending part of the turn.) In fact, you can trade it in then Cure someone at your location before you reset your hand, meaning you can get an extra card back too!
I'm probably going to spend card feats on more spells, she never gets enough of them.
Er, Dave, you do realize Masterwork Tools doesn't work on checks that aren't yours? Find Traps does. While it's still really powerful, it's a lot less so when you realize that.
Hey, I didn't start Finding Paths yesterday, yannow! >:|
While we fell into our fair share of misread rules pitfalls, the "I'll just use my thieves tools on your barrier!" wasn't one of them. :D Playing only with two characters, both of us had Masterwork Tools well into AP5 and that was sufficient for almost everything. With the much more diverse rolls required in S&S, along with the much greater incidence of barriers, I've developed the interest in Find Traps and Blessings of Abadar that RoRL could never instill in me.
But apparently, this interest is not enough to actually learn how to spell the god's name. I still keep typing it as "arbadar." Thankfully, googling "Pathfinder Arbadar" taught me the real spelling... until the next time I have to type it.
She can do this every turn. If you need more than 1 Cure spell a turn then I question your team's tactics, and whether or not you could ever get through most scenarios. (After all, spending actions in your hand is still spending part of the turn.) In fact, you can trade it in then Cure someone at your location before you reset your hand, meaning you can get an extra card back too!I'm probably going to spend card feats on more spells, she never gets enough of them.
Er, Dave, you do realize Masterwork Tools doesn't work on checks that aren't yours? Find Traps does. While it's still really powerful, it's a lot less so when you realize that.
Alahazra can only ever exchange one card per turn though with the divine recycling power right? She cant do it more than once per turn?
Correct. She has to do it "at the end of your turn", so it is tied to a step of the turn, and each power can only be used once per step.
Hey, I didn't start Finding Paths yesterday, yannow! >:|
While we fell into our fair share of misread rules pitfalls, the "I'll just use my thieves tools on your barrier!" wasn't one of them. :D Playing only with two characters, both of us had Masterwork Tools well into AP5 and that was sufficient for almost everything. With the much more diverse rolls required in S&S, along with the much greater incidence of barriers, I've developed the interest in Find Traps and Blessings of Abadar that RoRL could never instill in me.
But apparently, this interest is not enough to actually learn how to spell the god's name. I still keep typing it as "arbadar." Thankfully, googling "Pathfinder Arbadar" taught me the real spelling... until the next time I have to type it.
Well, _I_ got it wrong for a while - since the card's wording is misleading and gets overridden by the rulebook, especially since it seems to be contradicted by the golden rule that says cards override rulebook. I wish it said "your" instead.
(After all, not all of us are hawkmoon.)
But it makes sense if you're playing with only 2 characters that most of the time you'd be covered by a Tools.
I like how the designers did give Alahazra a reason to not be just total support. The +2 to Attack spells really helps Alahazra explore with some confidence when she has a Fireblade in hand. Plus the Divine Attack spells are just better and more plentiful than in Rotrl.
100% support characters aren’t for everyone, but I’m glad someone likes it. I’m sure most people like it when their characters get buffed and healed each turn. :) And it’s certainly a SAFER play style.
I play a lot of 6 player games though and in those games it’s very non-optimal if characters are losing their free explorations each turn and too many blessings are going to buffs. Some targeted buffing is good, a lot is bad.
I play a lot of 6 player games though and in those games it’s very non-optimal if characters are losing their free explorations each turn and too many blessings are going to buffs. Some targeted buffing is good, a lot is bad.
Yeah. If I was mostly in 6 character games and getting only 5 turns per game I'd probably be a little more miserly about my cards. With two characters getting 15 turns each, I'm happy to throw things around with wild abandon. Suits my playstyle perfectly.
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In response to Jason's post: I'd have to say that I don't think the number of players makes much difference, when it comes to the judicious usage of blessings. Besides, if each player in a 6-person table only gets 5 turns, that's only 5 explorations (max) that the table would lose, versus 15 in a 4-player game, if the healer is using up their first explorations to lay on the love.
Players need to "burn harder" in a 6-player game, using more of their powers and cards in order to locate and defeat the villain. The support character can let the others turn over their decks, using allies and their own blessings to explore, while bolstering the odds of beating down the beasties or snagging that phat lewt. The greatest risk is that the healer can't keep all of the characters away of that "death horizon" in a larger game, where they can't discard or bury cards because their deck is empty.
If the support player throws blessings at any ol' check, yeah, that can be suboptimal. I just don't think that that has anything to do with table size.
My daughter plays Alahazra in full-full support mode in a 4-5 character group.
Totally expert in deck management (combo recharge blessing to reveal locations, cure to get those blessing shuffled back with those from the discard to ensure at least 2-3 are in the top deck cards, wand of healing to get cure back if not recharged, right ally to get the cure back on top of deck, and so on), she just spends her time blessing/curing/revealing what's to come in the different locations.
She takes on the location with the fewest banes and spend her time recruiting allies for all of us.
We just move to where we are the most efficient because she already told us. We pretty much never miss a location closing or a villain.
She totally rocks. We owe her nearly 50% of our victories and we only lost 1 scenario once having played the 19 first ones of S&S... the day she couldn't join.
Fantastic, Alahazra may be my future go-to character then. An interesting sidenote that I could play her NOT support if I suddenly wanted to is nice to hear. One thing about my Kyra is that I was keeping cards that said divine even if we found something better. I know Alahazra has something similar but with that many spells and blessings and no "dead" armor cards, my items could at least be what I wanted instead of the sad little holy waters I kept for so very long.
Thanks for the input for the new guy on the forums.