Can I throw PCs / Animal Companions?


Rules Questions


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Hello Paizo Forums! Long time lurker, first time poster ^_^ I'm making a druid for PFS and want to take a giant leech as a pet. A big drawback with the leech is its 5ft. base speed, so I figured I'd just throw the thing. I've asked my local PFS DMs and so far the answer is no, simply because there isn't anywhere that explicitly says you are able to throw living beings. Is anyone able to provide a more solid answer?
Cheers ^_^

Dark Archive

Well, first off if your GM's are saying No to anything then that's the answer. No cascade of forum posts in your favor will change that.

That said, your GM's are also correct rules-wise. There are no rules supporting the ability to toss creatures, PC's, companions, or anything else living (or dead for that matter). In PFS, the rules are there to tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. As a result if there is no rule stating that you can do something, you simply can't do it without GM approval.
Were this a home-game, I'd say your GM could easily come up with something to allow it, for instance 3.5 had a feat for doing exactly this called Fling Ally. But since this is PFS you are out of luck here.

Grand Lodge

the Kinetikist has an ability to throw creatures about also look at the the telekinesis spell.. though neither of those help a druid.

Grand Lodge

if your method is to get your animal companion to be faster then cast longstrider on it or fly or overland flight.


As Crazy Alchemist said, the GM said no, so you're kind of screwed there.

That said, there IS a spell that allows you to do it, Telekinetic Charge, which explicitly lets you hurl your ally at an enemy using the power of your mind. With some discussion with your GM you might be able to use Telekinesis to replicate the lesser spell (and if you get a boatload of money get a ring of Telekinesis).

I suppose you could discuss using your leech as an improvised weapon and hurling it bodily at your enemy, but that would require GM permission.

Dark Archive

To clarify, my answer was referring to literally picking up your ally's with your own hands to throw them, this is not something you can do within the rules. There are certainly magically means of propelling allies as others have pointed out.

Liberty's Edge

Well, you could use a bull rush, reposition or drag maneuver to move him, but nothing I can think of to actually throw him. Or just pick him up, move, then drop him. But most of these are a pretty big waste of actions in combat.


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The rules are not meant to cover everything you can possibly do. If they did, you wouldn't need a GM.

A solid answer is the the rules allow you to lift things based on your character's strength. After that, the GM needs to adjudicate how far you can throw it. If the creature is small sized or bigger, I would not expect it to have a range of more than 10ft. There's also the question of whether the thrown creature will take damage from hitting something after it has been thrown.

So yes, you absolutely should be allowed to throw anything you can lift. The question is how far? Expect table variation.

Dark Archive

N N 959 wrote:

The rules are not meant to cover everything you can possibly do. If they did, you wouldn't need a GM.

A solid answer is the the rules allow you to lift things based on your character's strength. After that, the GM needs to adjudicate how far you can throw it. If the creature is small sized or bigger, I would not expect it to have a range of more than 10ft. There's also the question of whether the thrown creature will take damage from hitting something after it has been thrown.

So yes, you absolutely should be allowed to throw anything you can lift. The question is how far? Expect table variation.

A Giant Leech, like most creatures in the game, do not have a weight listed and therefore cannot be picked up using the normal carrying capacity rules.

The only SOLID answer is "NO", since no part of it is covered by the rules. A GM is within his power to allow it however, but it sounds like your GM's have already ruled "No" so that is your solid answer OP.


That Crazy Alchemist wrote:


A Giant Leech, like most creatures in the game, do not have a weight listed and therefore cannot be picked up using the normal carrying capacity rules.

So wait, your stance is that since there's no weight listed, a person cannot pick something up? I wonder what purpose knives, forks, and spoons serve in Golarion?

Hey, don't pick up that dry leaf on the side of the road or you might strain your back!

Quote:
The only SOLID answer is "NO", since no part of it is covered by the rules.

Once again, the rules are not meant to cover everything your character can do. The authors/developers/etc have repeatedly said you read and apply the rules using common sense.

That having been said, a Giant Leech is a medium creature so I wouldn't expect a GM to let it be thrown more than 5'. Probably not going to be a viable tactic in most cases.

Dark Archive

You are exactly right. The Developers have stated that we should use common sense, which is why we can pick up common sense things like knives and forks, and anything else that common sense dictates what we could pick up.

A Giant Leech, that arguably weighs more than you do, is not a common sense item with any real world basis by which we could apply common sense to it to determine if you could reliably pick one up, let alone throw it.


Hi, thanks everyone for the answers, it seems that the general concensus is no, so I guess I'll just have to carry the thing around with me instead of throwing it :p To be clear, I'm not trying to undermine the GM's authority, as I said originally I'm just wanting to get a more solid answer than "No, because we can't find the rules for it". That being said, I do appreciate the input ^_^
Valdimarian, that was what I was hoping to do originally, use the animal as an improvised thrown weapon, or dip in to barbarian and get the lesser hurling feat.
N N 959, (taken from the paizo website) Improvised Weapons: "...An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
That Crazy Alchemist, regarding GMs allowing it, one said yes and another said no, so I figured I'd come here to check other peoples opinions/see if someone knew a rule somewhere :)That being said, you bought up an interesting point: "...like most creatures in the game, do not have a weight listed and therefore cannot be picked up using the normal carrying capacity rules", does that mean that objects without a listed weight are unable to be carried or that there is a seperate ruleset for them?

Thanks again to all above ^_^

Dark Archive

LordRaptor wrote:

That Crazy Alchemist, regarding GMs allowing it, one said yes and another said no, so I figured I'd come here to check other peoples opinions/see if someone knew a rule somewhere :)That being said, you bought up an interesting point: "...like most creatures in the game, do not have a weight listed and therefore cannot be picked up using the normal carrying capacity rules", does that mean that objects without a listed weight are unable to be carried or that there is a seperate ruleset for them?

Yes and no. As I mentioned in my previous post many items fall under the unwritten "use common sense" clause. But items which there is any doubt about the answer is "No, unless a GM wishes to allow it". So a feather, duh, you can pick that up, no need to ask. But say you wanted to pick up, oh say, a Giant Leech for example. Then the answer is "No" but feel free to ask your GM, and under no circumstances should you argue with him about it.


That Crazy Alchemist wrote:
A Giant Leech, that arguably weighs more than you do, is not a common sense item with any real world basis by which we could apply common sense to it to determine if you could reliably pick one up, let alone throw it.

A human female, a Medium creature, weighs as little as 95 lbs. Commoner (STR 10) has a max load of 100 lbs. If you have an 18 STR, then a 100 lbs is a light load. The PRD says,

PRD wrote:
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

Please cite a source where it says a medium creature weighs twice as much as a medium PC. Because that is what you're saying.

If you don't have a source that says how much a Giant Leech weighs, then you have no idea what you're talking about. It's entirely feasible for someone to lift a Medium sized creature and toss them if they have a Strength between 10 and 18.

@OP - Expect table variation from GMs like Crazy who are going to make up something to shut you down or GMs like me who will say, "yes," unless it's going to break the game or is clearly an exploit. Though I'd probably tack on a skill check and not let you throw it more than 5'

Stuff like this, you always want to work it out with the GM before you attempt it.


N N 959 wrote:
That Crazy Alchemist wrote:
A Giant Leech, that arguably weighs more than you do, is not a common sense item with any real world basis by which we could apply common sense to it to determine if you could reliably pick one up, let alone throw it.

A human female, a Medium creature, weighs as little as 95 lbs. Commoner (STR 10) has a max load of 100 lbs. If you have an 18 STR, then a 100 lbs is a light load. The PRD says,

PRD wrote:
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

Please cite a source where it says a medium creature weighs twice as much as a medium PC. Because that is what you're saying.

If you don't have a source that says how much a Giant Leech weighs, then you have no idea what you're talking about. It's entirely feasible for someone to lift a Medium sized creature and toss them if they have a Strength between 10 and 18.

...

There..is. It's the source that lets a human (or any other midsizer like a halforc or dwarf) weigh 200lbs, the size/weight charts on page 170. Or that an average halfling, weighing in at 32lbs if female, gets an Enlarge spell put on her ... and is now Medium and 256. I don't think mass was ever explicitly linked to size, anyway. My current human barbarian stands 5' and 110lbs ... and if someone were to make a solid lead-core steel statue of her, with all her adventuring gear (which itself is 90lbs), it'd probably weigh a decent amount.

If I were a GM and ever asked for this? Well, how stable is a leech? It's not like a spear--while an ash haft will flex some, I think a leech (or even my barbarian!) would wiggle too much for a good throw. 'No' might be the best answer there is for that kind of thing.


You can cast Flesh to Stone so leech considered object.
Then by weapon rules.

Quote:
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Now Contingency + Stone to Flesh on leech. As medium sized object it is two-handed improvised weapon and require full-round action to throw with -8 penalty (-4 for improvised and -4 for not being throwning weapon). Contingency work when leech is 10ft from you, so as soon as it flies 10ft i turns into leech.

I would rule it differently, but its PFS - in PFS GMs cannot rewrite rules.


Qaianna wrote:


If I were a GM and ever asked for this? Well, how stable is a leech? It's not like a spear--while an ash haft will flex some, I think a leech (or even my barbarian!) would wiggle too much for a good throw. 'No' might be the best answer there is for that kind of thing.

1. The leech is an animal companion so the idea is that it's cooperating, not trying to wriggle free. Pro-wrestlers lift and throw each other all the time and they clearly weigh in the 200-300 lbs range.

2. There's no reason why you couldn't grab it from one end and hammer-toss it.


Please don't get sidetracked by the moral aspect but there was midget tossing as a sport. This is nothing I'd endorse, this is just to give a real live example of how far you could throw a person.The "record" is at 11'4" for throwing the 4'4" 98 lbs Lenny the Giant.

Go to link.

In game terms that would be 2 squares for a small creature. A medium sized creature would get you a range of on square per throw. With picking up throwing and moving yourself that might be slower that having the leech move by itself.

The leech might also take damage from being tossed around all the time.

Long story short, it might be possible but doesn't look to solve the low move of the leech.


DarkPhoenixx wrote:

You can cast Flesh to Stone so leech considered object.

Then by weapon rules.
Quote:
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Now Contingency + Stone to Flesh on leech. As medium sized object it is two-handed improvised weapon and require full-round action to throw with -8 penalty (-4 for improvised and -4 for not being throwning weapon). Contingency work when leech is 10ft from you, so as soon as it flies 10ft i turns into leech.

I would rule it differently, but its PFS - in PFS GMs cannot rewrite rules.

Of course. Then again, Contingency is a 10 minute casting time spell. And if your contingency is 'when Zippy the Wonder Slug is 10' away from me', you're dragging around a stone statue of a giant leech. I'm sure my GM would cackle evilly as he added up encumbrance rules. And started assessing penalties to social functions. And 'in general' is probably any rule writer's way out of absurd notions.

N N 959 wrote:

1. The leech is an animal companion so the idea is that it's cooperating, not trying to wriggle free. Pro-wrestlers lift and throw each other all the time and they clearly weigh in the 200-300 lbs range.

2. There's no reason why you couldn't grab it from one end and hammer-toss it.

Even more fun for GMs to abuse. Professional wrestlers do lift and toss each other around quite a bit, yes. What feat or skill would best represent this? I'd be merciful and allow either Athletics, Perform (Sports Entertainment), or maybe Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Self). And all that's before the actual toss penalties mentioned above.

Despite our party bard wanting to Speedball Special our barbarian into melee, we're going to have to rely on good old fashioned Fast Movement.


Hi, thanks for the answers, some of them quite amusing ^_^
To clarify, a giant leech is a small creature, I decided to use 18 STR on the assumption that 18 would be enough to lift a small creature without much difficulty. I'm not trying to break the game, the leech is a pretty crappy pet even without considering its base speed, I just thought it was a neat idea :)
TCA: Again, I'm not arguing with them, I was just curious to see if anyone had a clear answer :)

NN 959: Table variation is what I'm trying to avoid, as I said above currently it is a mixed response amongst my local GMs, unless someone can say "absolutely, see this and this for confirmation" I won't be doing it :)

Qaiana: I'm assuming with spells/sufficient STR that I will be able to throw an object the weight of a giant leech. I figured I'd have it ball up and throw it like a shot put/basketball :p

C-K: that would make sence with the 10' range increment of improvised ranged weapons I suppose


Giant Leech CR 2XP 600
N Medium vermin (aquatic)

Medium, not small.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Giant Leech CR 2XP 600

N Medium vermin (aquatic)

Medium, not small.

The Giant Leech Vermin Companion starts small.


Good catch Void,

Then yeah, it's much more feasible you could throw a small A/C 10'.

@Lordraptor,

You're not going to avoid table variation. In fact, you'll need to expect table variation on things that aren't even ambiguous because there's no accounting for someone's reading comprehension.


N N 959: In our PFS group we try to avoid table variation where possible. If it were an on the spot, once off ruling it would be okay, but in this case, since it is an action I would be doing probably once per combat,I'd prefer to have a solid ruling that I can show my GMs :)
That being said, the feeling I'm getting from people on this post is a pretty clear 'no', so that's the decision I'll stick with unless someone can give a clear reason otherwise


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Meh, I'd let the player do it.

Small creature - Check
Willing - Check
Less than a light load for the character - Check

Move action to pick up (like a weapon)
Standard action to throw (as an improvised weapon and ranged penalty)

Next player's turn...


This is a timely thread. I've been considering introducing a very large Troll-like, one of kind monster, that's much bigger, nearly epic in size. Some of the attack options I wanted to give this creature are the option to grab a character and either a.) squeeze it, b.) attempt to take a bite out of it, or c.) hurl the character up to 40'-80' away.

The grabbing, squeezing and biting parts seem pretty straightforward. The hurling part I'm giving more consideration to. It's obviously not falling damage -- the as yet unnamed creature is immensely strong so hurling in and of itself should cause some trauma, and the impact should also be quite painful.

I'm thinking roll d6 per 10' hurled (also determined by dice) and double it, or a d12 per 10' + whatever I come up with for hurl trauma.

It's very conceptual at this point, so I welcome opinions. Thanks in advance.


This feat seems to be exactly what you're looking for.


Solution: Buy your leech a mount and have it charge from horseback.


Body Bludgeon rage power (UC): http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/barbarian .html#body-bludgeon
Raging Hurler feat (UC): http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html# raging-hurler

Qualifications to throw creature in pathfinder:
-Throwee must be smaller than you
-Throwee must be pinned
-You must have at least 10 levels of barbarian (maybe with the Mad Dog archetype from the animal archive so you get an animal companion.)

Assuming you have pinned the leech before combat, and you are bigger than it, you could throw it, and no GM could stop you in PFS.

You could also use Improved Ki Throw, and use the trip/bulls rush rules, but you would be restricted to throwing the creature only into squares you threaten.


Also don't forget animal companions have the option of "Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2." (from the animal companion rules found in the core rulebook under the druid class section).

Taking this option would prevent your leech from becoming medium.


Also from the animal archive is archetypes for your animal companion, one of which is the "Racer archetype." It gives a +10 base speed increase and the sprint ability, letting it do a 10x speed charge once per hour.

Taking this option may relieve you of the need to throw your leech. Either way though, I recommend checking out that book.


LordRaptor wrote:
N N 959: In our PFS group we try to avoid table variation where possible. If it were an on the spot, once off ruling it would be okay, but in this case, since it is an action I would be doing probably once per combat,I'd prefer to have a solid ruling that I can show my GMs :)

Alternatively, if you play under the same GMs all the time, you sit down with them all and ask them to help you come up with a consistent mechanic that they'd agree to. The rules don't stop you from doing this, they just don't provide the GMs/Players with any consistent mechanic for what rules should apply. That can solved through discussion, if you're so motivated.

But, if you play with other GMs, you will get table variation, so if you are not consistently GM'd by the same people, I would agree with avoiding the headache.

Grand Lodge

Get a heavy load belt and mule back cords. Combine with throw anything feat. I dare any GM say you can't throw that leech at this point.

alternative, assuming hunter or druid, just cast long strider on your little buddy. Now moves at a more respectable 15ft.


Corwin Illum wrote:

Get a heavy load belt and mule back cords. Combine with throw anything feat. I dare any GM say you can't throw that leech at this point.

I invite you to meet The Crazy Alchemist.


Corwin Illum wrote:

Get a heavy load belt and mule back cords. Combine with throw anything feat. I dare any GM say you can't throw that leech at this point.

alternative, assuming hunter or druid, just cast long strider on your little buddy. Now moves at a more respectable 15ft.

Throw Anything specifies improvised ranged weapon. Improvised weapons are by definition objects. Creatures are not objects.


Avoron wrote:
This feat seems to be exactly what you're looking for.

Thanks Avoron, that is pretty much what I'm looking for but with a little more damage implied (because hurling with force should hurt more than just falling imo). I thought of calling it 'massive snatch' but then had second thoughts about that name. Even saying 'the Troll Titan uses his snatch attack...' may conjure bouts of giggling at the table.

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