Do Magic Armor effects stack with Spell Mage Armor?


Rules Questions


Just double checking to make sure this is legal.

Have a Magus wearing magical leather armor, like +1 Spell Storing Leather.

The Magus also uses Mage Armor from a Wand.

Now let's say the Magus has a 7th level Intensify Shocking Grasp stored in his +1 Spell Storing Armor and is hit. Magus has the Mage Armor spell on him at this time.

Can the Magus use the +1 Spell Storing Leather Armor to trigger that 7th level Intensify Shocking Grasp on the attacker?

Everything I've read seems to say yes. As the only conflict with the Mage Armor spell is I do not get to stack the AC from the spell with the armor.
...but I want to make sure on this.

What about if the armor was +1 Spell Resistance (SR13). Would it work with Mage Armor?


Uhm it should work..

Your still gaining the "enhancement bonus" portion so the armour is still involved. So i think it should work fine.

I suppoes if somehow you had enchantments but no +1 on it, it might be more complicated.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It won't work.

The mage armor will completely shutdown all properties of the leather armor including spell storing.

Worse you'd still be subject to ASF while wearing it , although not by much.

Sovereign Court

So the question is would a special effect from the lower of the two armor bonuses work? Good question. This could also go along with light fortification.

I don't think its much different than using mage armor to supplement your AC when facing incorporeal creatures. But let's take that example and run with it.

If you had +1 spell storing leather armor and mage armor and were hit by a shadow would a cure light wounds spell stored in the physical armor go off and effect the shadow?

In this example I'd want to say no because the incorporeal creature ignores the physical armor completely. But OTOH you were hit whichi fulfills the letter of the armor ability.

In your example if a goblin managed to beat your AC it would still have hit you through your physical armor and set off the intensified shocking grasp.

By RAW I think it would work. Though in some corner cases I could see a GM saying it does not. YMMV

--Vrocking Grasp


Let's see.

Mage Armor wrote:

An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.

Unlike mundane armor, mage armor entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction. Since mage armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can't bypass it the way they do normal armor.

Nope, not seeing where it stops other armor from functioning. LazarX, you may be mistaking it with Bracers of Armor which say

Bracers of Armor wrote:
Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

As written yes, you can use Mage Armor and mundane armor. You'll only get the highest armor bonus and only the armor can be enhanced (as in enhancement bonuses to the armor). It's not a bad plan, just eternally limits you to +4 armor with no way to increase it. Similar to a +1 blahblah weapon you cast Greater Magic Weapon on every day.

As for the spell storing example, it works that way without Mage Armor being involved at all. Still does half damage for being a mundane source, presumably.


Mage armour doesn't shut down everything. It does superscened the Armour bonus (if more than the armour) but the Enhancment (and thereby the magic abilities) are still used. Stacking doesn't conflict since they're via different bonuses types. Right? And as others said when they hit you they're still impacting the acutal armour.

i've no clue if it would work if the attack in question bypasses normal armour..

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to say that it doesn't work pretty much for the reason that incorporeal touch treats the leather armor as if it wasn't there.

Sovereign Court

LazarX I think in that specific case you could definitely argue the spell storing armor doesn't go off. But against normal enemies I think it would by RAW. The spell or even bracers don't suppress the other item from functioning, you are only required to use the better of the two bonuses.

A suit of +1 shadow leather armor would still provide its bonus to Stealth even if you had mage armor active as well.

--School of Vrock


Bracers of Armor specifically have text shutting down the lesser armor.

Quote:
If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

Mage armor has no such text, therefore it should work.


Enhancement bonus doesn't work on mage armor because it's not an "enhancement bonus" it's an "enhancement bonus to armor". Otherwise you couldn't enchant both a shield and armor and have them stack. +1 leather armor provides a +3 armor bonus (+2 base +1 enhancement). That +1 enhancement is a property of the armor though, so it doesn't float over to the mage armor if it provides a higher armor bonus.

Enhancement Bonus wrote:
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

The special abilities just work though, so they should still be there.


I believe there has been a general sentiment by designers against this sort of action, which takes advantage of the rules.

It is not explicitly forbidden, but its not actually intended to work.


It's certainly frowned upon, but it does work like that. "effectively" means effectively. If it specifically raised the value, itwouldn't even have that word (effectively)in it-it would just say "increeases the armour or natural armour's bonus to AC."
So you'd get mage armour or base armour whichever is higher. But special abilities would work if in the situation that applies.

The enhancmenet bonus on armour + mage armour is very much frowned up trying to get. but special abilities are a magic effect on your character typically. your breastplate still uses fortification if your crited in the foot. etc.


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Core Rulebook - Magic Items - Magic Armor wrote:
Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1.
Core Rulebook - Spells - Mage Armor wrote:
An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.

Yes, wearing a +5 armor increases the AC bonus gained from Mage Armor as well, though as usual only the highest total armor bonus (after enhancements) applies.

The enhancement bonuses granted by magical armor do not specify that they only apply to the magical armor's AC, merely that they improve the bonus of normal armor bonuses, which is in keeping with how enhancement bonuses work (such as with the barkskin spell, bull's strength, and similar things).


Now I'm confused -

If I have a +1 Enhancement on normal armor and I get Mage Armor casted on me. Does that +1 Enhancement on the armor stack with Mage Armor?

I thought by RAW it does not. I have never seen it used that way and we have stacked mage armor with regular armor before when facing stuff using touch attacks.


If I'm reading this thread correctly: Uh, no.

An armor's enhancement bonus only applies to the armor on which it's cast. Having a +5 piece of physical armor will not increase your Mage Armor to 9AC. It will increase the physical armor's AC, and you will wind up using its AC for anything but incorporeal touch attacks.

That being said, any special properties of the physical armor will otherwise stack with the armor bonus from mage armor.


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Byakko wrote:

If I'm reading this thread correctly: Uh, no.

An armor's enhancement bonus only applies to the armor on which it's cast. Having a +5 piece of physical armor will not increase your Mage Armor to 9AC. It will increase the physical armor's AC, and you will wind up using its AC for anything but incorporeal touch attacks.

That being said, any special properties of the physical armor will otherwise stack with the armor bonus from mage armor.

You do not "cast" an enhancement bonus on armor. Enhancing an armor provides a +X enhancement bonus that raises your character's existing armor bonuses. It specifically says it stacks with normal armor bonuses and not just the armor's armor bonus.

So yes, RAW, if you have +1 padded armor or something and cast mage armor you now have two +4 armor bonuses and one +1 armor enhancement bonus. The armor enhancement bonus stacks with the previous armor bonuses (bringing your padded armor to +2 and your mage armor to +5), giving you a net AC of +5.

This is because it is possible to have multiple instances of the same bonus type at the same time. For example, if you have a +1 natural armor bonus (for being a kobold for example) and then a spell gives you a +1 natural armor bonus nothing happens (you have two +1 natural armor bonuses but they don't stack). If you have a +1 natural armor and +2 natural armor you've still only got +2. If you cast barkskin and get a +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, it would raise all of your natural armor bonuses but only the highest applies.


What Ashiel said.

The +# enhancment is an enhancment to defense. It's basically magic properties of the armour covering your body. raising total defense.

Now..I'm not sure if the enhancment bonus would apply or not to incoporeal defense when used in conjunction with mage armour.. I can't remember if magic armour provides any effects of defense vs incorporeal.. I remember 50% damage when you attack with a magic weapon but I can't remember anything about defense.. so someone else would have to cover that detail


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Zwordsman wrote:

What Ashiel said.

The +# enhancment is an enhancment to defense. It's basically magic properties of the armour covering your body. raising total defense.

Now..I'm not sure if the enhancment bonus would apply or not to incoporeal defense when used in conjunction with mage armour.. I can't remember if magic armour provides any effects of defense vs incorporeal.. I remember 50% damage when you attack with a magic weapon but I can't remember anything about defense.. so someone else would have to cover that detail

To my knowledge, an enhancement bonus actually improves bonuses of the associated type, so any additional properties of the bonus are likewise improved.

For example, when you have a +1 enhancement bonus to "armor", it is actually raising "armor" bonuses. The bonus from mage armor is an "armor" bonus that specifically works against incorporeal foes, thus when that bonus is raised it does not lose this additional quality, merely the value of the number is raised.


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Ashiel wrote:
Byakko wrote:

If I'm reading this thread correctly: Uh, no.

An armor's enhancement bonus only applies to the armor on which it's cast. Having a +5 piece of physical armor will not increase your Mage Armor to 9AC. It will increase the physical armor's AC, and you will wind up using its AC for anything but incorporeal touch attacks.

That being said, any special properties of the physical armor will otherwise stack with the armor bonus from mage armor.

You do not "cast" an enhancement bonus on armor. Enhancing an armor provides a +X enhancement bonus that raises your character's existing armor bonuses. It specifically says it stacks with normal armor bonuses and not just the armor's armor bonus.

Nope, I don't think so. From the rules:

Quote:
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

Enhancement bonuses on armor increase that armor's armor bonus. Therefore you would compare the net armor bonus for the magic armor vs. the armor bonus from mage armor to determine which takes precedence.


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I'm not sure how that dispels or contradicts what the magic armor rules say. It just explains how enhancement bonuses work. As noted the enhancement bonuses on the same object do not stack. For example, a masterwork weapon provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks with that weapon, as does a +1 weapon, but they do not stack.

It also notes that enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, which is explicitly what the magic armor rules say they do. The thing is it doesn't limit it to the enhanced armor, it improves armor bonuses. It says so right in the text. It's not even ambiguous about it.

Your quoted text actually reinforces the other quoted text I posted so...why are we arguing?


This thread is very confusing -- but if someone is trying to stack armor enhancement on mage armor, that's ludicrous.


This is why we needed an FAQ that says you actually have to wear a magic item to benefit from it.


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Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
This is why we needed an FAQ that says you actually have to wear a magic item to benefit from it.

How was that in question? The rules clearly say:

Magic Items wrote:
Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It's possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as 15 magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body, known as a “slot.”

If a magic item says what slot it goes in, you must wear it to benefit from it. It's right there in the rules.


Trying to clarify here -

Leather armor has a +2 AC armor bonus and a +1 magic enhancement bonus giving you a +3 armor bonus in total.

Now the spell: mage armor is applied to the person wearing that +1 magic leather armor.

We know the mage armor AC +4 does not stack with the leather's AC +2. The confusion is, does the +1 magic enhancement on the leather armor stack with the mage armor, bringing the total, max/highest AC of this combo to AC +5?
Mage Armor +4
Enhancement +1 on leather.
Total, combined AC +5

I didn't think it did but now I'm confused and thinking it might be possible by RAW.

___________________________________________

The start of this thread was about other magical effects on the armor (example: spell storing & fortification) working with mage armor. That answer looked like a yes.


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Yes, the non-AC benefits (such as energy resistance, fortification, etc) still continue to function.


The enhancement bonus from enchantment or Magic Vestment, for instance, is tied to a particular piece of armor, or shield. The target of the spell and enhancement is one suit or armor or shield. Compare with something like Lead Blades, which undoubtedly affects all carried weapons.

So no, a person's worn armor with an enchantment does not increase their mage armor bonus. A wizard carrying a +5 Mithral Buckler does not get a +9 Shield Bonus to AC if the wizard casts Shield. It is not a floating bonus; it is tied to a specific target.

There was a thread a while back about whether you could target Mage Armor itself with Magic Vestment. I don't recall if there was developer commentary to clarify, but I do know there wasn't a consensus among posters.


That being said, it's not worthless to have Mage Armor up even while wearing other armor because Mage Armor will actually provide some protection from incorporeal touch attacks.


So an arcane caster could use an Armored Kilt (from Adventurer's Armory), which has +1AC, 0 armor check penalty and 0% Arcane Spell Failure, enchant it to +1 and then add all the non-AC armor enhancements he can afford to it, while still benefiting from the Mage Armor spell.

Same thing with a +1 mithril buckler, if they were so inclined.

Not bad.


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Rules citation for the curious:

CRB wrote:
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.

The bonus enhancement bonus applies to a piece of armor and modifies the armor bonus that piece of armor grants to your AC. It does not just apply straight to your AC.


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Ashiel wrote:

I'm not sure how that dispels or contradicts what the magic armor rules say. It just explains how enhancement bonuses work. As noted the enhancement bonuses on the same object do not stack. For example, a masterwork weapon provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks with that weapon, as does a +1 weapon, but they do not stack.

It also notes that enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, which is explicitly what the magic armor rules say they do. The thing is it doesn't limit it to the enhanced armor, it improves armor bonuses. It says so right in the text. It's not even ambiguous about it.

Your quoted text actually reinforces the other quoted text I posted so...why are we arguing?

Because I don't think you are reading it correctly. Just like an enchanted weapon provides a bonus to attacks with that weapon, enchantment bonuses for armor increase the armor bonus for that armor.

I'll quote and bold the relevant text again:

Quote:
Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC

See that possessive apostrophe there at the end of the bolded part? Enchantment bonuses on armor apply to that armor, not to the overall armor bonus of the character.

Applying it your way, for example to weapons, would imply that you could carry a +5 dagger in your off-hand and have the enchantment 'to-hit' apply to whatever weapon you're holding in your main hand.

But we all know that weapon enhancements apply to that weapon, and similarly, armor enhancements apply to that armor.

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