I guess this is primarily a roleplaying question, about character backstories and how they're incorporated into your at-table play.
I'm not sure if this is the best place for this post, or if it should be separate from the "Homosexuality in Golarion" thread (since that's kind of an all-purpose LGBT thread). Mods can feel free to move it if they think they should.
I was thinking about Shardra the other day, and I was wondering, for people who have played transgender PCs, how have you gone about it?
By which I mean things like: How is it incorporated into your character's backstory? Is it something that comes up in play? Does the GM know? Do the other players or PCs know? Did your character transition before they began adventuring? Did they come to the realization before or after they began adventuring? Is getting enough money together to get the necessary potion/elixir/girdle/ring/what-have-you part of a roleplaying arc you've created for your character? Is there any way you tie all of this into Golarion lore (e.g. Kittyburger's idea of referring to trans people in-setting as Arshean)? And so on.
Any thoughts? Just curious what approaches people have taken, on the (I'm guessing) rare occasions they've played a trans character.
boring7 has the dark of it, I think.
I've played a number of characters who were conceived female, but born male. It never really came up in game.
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it comes up and is referenced about as much as you want it to really.
I'm playing a female dragon, in RL I'm male, and I have yet to correct their assumptions. only the GM knows.
When a player wants to play a particular character concept, be they tiefling redeemer, scorned scion of a noble house, or a transgender adventurer there is typically a reason behind it. They might be trying to play a unique or different character concept that will standout in the party, they might enjoy the roleplaying elements of playing such a character, or they might be trying to gain insight or a sense of control using elements within their own lives.
For whatever the concept and for whatever the reasoning, I agree with boring7 that you should find a way to win.
Caution should be exercised, however, to be knowledgeable about the transgender community and what it means to be trans before deciding to play a transgender character. For example, it is important to differentiate a transgender male from a cisgender female who simply "disguises" themselves as a male to join a mercenary force or avoid undo attention as a female adventurer. Likewise, if a player decides to play a transgender character but does so in a manner that would be offensive to other players or make them uncomfortable, you are completely within your rights as GM to let the player know what behaviors the group doesn't find acceptable.
OK so I had a character that traded spots with his alternate dimension double who was a female alchemist. Later after they both died and reincarnated as different races, they decided to try and find a way back to their own dimension.
They could only find a way to trade their minds, so my male rogue character ended up in the female alchemist body and vice versa. He just ran around with a hat of disguise and skillmastery in disguise as his original race and gender before all that happened. His physical femininity unsettled him, but he was in no physical relationships and had more pressing matters at hand (world level crisis).
Sometime later that party wiped (in large part do to his own incompetence) and was mysteriously revived. It was at this point that he ran away from the party and is currently hiding somewhere up in the mountains with his ring of sustenance and the mythic path ability longevity.
His alchemist counterpart used alchemy to restore her gender, eventually, probably. I lost control of her after the switch.
Both characters did make the choice of their world over their bodies, neither really thought that their physical sex changing was going to be a significant issue.
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I debated for a while making a transgendered PFS character, but I struggled with the idea. I was uncertain if I should bring this to anyone's attention or if I NEEDED to or if I did, if I was just going "HEY LOOK AT ME! MY CHARACTER IS TRANS!" There are also several very immature players at the store where we play that would turn it into a joke, which is of course the opposite of what I was interested in doing. I ended up not making the character because of these concerns.
To my knowledge, there are very few times when gender, gender identity or sexual orientation come up. A few traits that give a bonus if a character would be attracted to them or the like, but it has only come up once in my past year of PFS (in our home games, the subject comes up regularly, but not mechanically). I do not remember the scenario, but an NPC tries to seduce players, but from my knowledge it was done more for laughs rather than anything else. I just told the GM my character wasn't interested and left it at that. He asked another player who was and the game went on.
I played a character who is physically female but identified as non - gendered (using zee and zer for pronouns) who was an evil abolitionist. The inward effect of the choice of a non-cis character was a character who ignored all gender roles. The outward effect of the choice mostly involved zer clothing and the pronoun use. Zee was not in a rush to transition/change zer physical body permanently - zee just wanted to be who zee was mentally and live zer life. Zee was Aesexual in terms of sexual preference. Most people found those aspects of zer character overshadowed by being a social justice warrior for elementals in Eberron (I.e. an outlandish and eccentric notion).
I feel the impact of choosing to play non-cissexual characters is what you, the players and. GM make of it.
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Well, this thread went south fast.
But back on point...
Since the corrective measures for gender dysphoria in Golarion (2,250 gp one-use wondrous item) permit "passing" with 100% success (including biological functions such as reproduction), a great deal of the issues facing the real-world transgender community don't exist in Pathfinder.
Perhaps I am naive, but wouldn't a transgender PC not want magic to alter their body? I thought that a transgender was someone who wanted social and cultural recognition as a member of the opposite perceived gender without changing their sex--that someone who wanted to be the other sex as well as be recognized as the other perceived gender was a transsexual. Did I get that mixed up?
Well, this thread went south fast.
But back on point...
Since the corrective measures for gender dysphoria in Golarion (2,250 gp one-use wondrous item) permit "passing" with 100% success (including biological functions such as reproduction), a great deal of the issues facing the real-world transgender community don't exist in Pathfinder.
Many don't, but many still do.
You still have to deal with all the relationship issues with anyone who knew you before transitioning, including and especially family. 2,250 gp isn't exactly cheap for most, so you'll likely have to live at least some of your life without it, unless your parents will cover it when you're a child.
The item also raises new issues, like transforming someone against their will.
While the rules dont represent it, there really isnt a reason a genders swap spell that isnt a curse cant exist. Its just hasnt really come up to the point where it shows up in the spell lists. In any world where this is an issue, it would really just be a casting of a single 3rd or 4th level spell, not necessarily a magic item. And though that still wouldnt be cheap, it isnt impossible even for normal people, and especially not on an adventurer's budget.
Perhaps I am naive, but wouldn't a transgender PC not want magic to alter their body? I thought that a transgender was someone who wanted social and cultural recognition as a member of the opposite perceived gender without changing their sex--that someone who wanted to be the other sex as well as be recognized as the other perceived gender was a transsexual. Did I get that mixed up?
The terms are often used interchangeably, and you should not assume that one specific definition applies over the other, since they get so muddled and mixed up. I'm sure there's a "correct" definition but it's used inconsistently.
Honestly, the presence of the Elixir of Sex Shift bothers me greatly. It makes it nearly impossible to play a transgender character past the level where such an item becomes a trivial purpose. Roleplaying is an interesting experience, and many players might want to roleplay the struggles of a character whose biological sex doesn't correspond to their gender... but how do you remain such a character once you're, say, level 10? You have so much gold that 2,250gp is a drop in the bucket. Why would you not consume such an elixir?
Yes, I can conceive of social circumstances why - a transwoman who is the sole "male" heir to a royal line, etc.
...crap, I just created my next character, didn't I. I guess ranting about things really can solve problems!
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While the rules dont represent it, there really isnt a reason a genders swap spell that isnt a curse cant exist. Its just hasnt really come up to the point where it shows up in the spell lists. In any world where this is an issue, it would really just be a casting of a single 3rd or 4th level spell, not necessarily a magic item. And though that still wouldnt be cheap, it isnt impossible even for normal people, and especially not on an adventurer's budget.Well, this thread went south fast.
But back on point...
Since the corrective measures for gender dysphoria in Golarion (2,250 gp one-use wondrous item) permit "passing" with 100% success (including biological functions such as reproduction), a great deal of the issues facing the real-world transgender community don't exist in Pathfinder.
Many don't, but many still do.
You still have to deal with all the relationship issues with anyone who knew you before transitioning, including and especially family. 2,250 gp isn't exactly cheap for most, so you'll likely have to live at least some of your life without it, unless your parents will cover it when you're a child.
The item also raises new issues, like transforming someone against their will.
Certainly possible, but still not on the casual expense list for most people's budgets - especially if they have to travel for it. Meaning they'll likely have to live a decent part of their lives before transition and spend a good deal of effort planning for and arranging it. And if you're not leaving home forever to do it, everyone will know.
Even adventurers will have to spend at least a few levels before affording it - or affording it without spending all their WBL that's supposed to be keeping them alive. And becoming an adventurer to be able to afford the change is itself a major life choice driven by your transgender condition.
I am not saying that it wont be a part of who they are, I am just wondering what such a change would actually mean. If a transgender person could literally wave a magic wand and be the sex that matches their gender in every way, what would that do for the person? Would they do it? How does that impact their identity? How would that impact cultural norms around it?
Would there be any differences culturally to the acceptance of a boy who wants to be a girl or vice versa if there was literally a way to make them that other sex? Not just look a certain way, but actually be that other sex. Would people be more comfortable with it? Less? Especially in a world loaded down with literally miraculous magic like a pathfinder world, it seems like there should be some kind of impact.
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Well, it's not the same thing, but I have played a feminine-presenting male cross dresser (briefly) in a PbP game. It was Dungeon World and not Pathfinder, but I was playing the Princess class. So the concept was sort of male Princess: male gender identity, but feminine presentation and taking on the political duties of a princess.
The class also has a built-in Nemesis, which is determined sort of half by the player and half by the GM, but what info I provided was that the Nemesis sent a (failed) assassination attempt after me, partially because of hateful gender essentialism and partially because the Princess was a beacon of hope to the people of his kingdom that stood in the way of their usurpation/coup.
I've also considered making a cross dressing character for PFS. I feel like it wouldn't really come up in my local groups, though. Some of our GMs aren't great with their role playing, but I guess a feminine male cross dresser or a trans man character would have some nice validation since some of those GMs tend to use pronouns based on the player rather than the character. :P
I am not saying that it wont be a part of who they are, I am just wondering what such a change would actually mean. If a transgender person could literally wave a magic wand and be the sex that matches their gender in every way, what would that do for the person? Would they do it? How does that impact their identity? How would that impact cultural norms around it?
Would there be any differences culturally to the acceptance of a boy who wants to be a girl or vice versa if there was literally a way to make them that other sex? Not just look a certain way, but actually be that other sex. Would people be more comfortable with it? Less? Especially in a world loaded down with literally miraculous magic like a pathfinder world, it seems like there should be some kind of impact.
There is another way to look at this.
In the real world, there is no method of actually changing a body's sex (XX to XY, for example, resulting in a body with a fully functioning reproductive system). You're pondering whether or not a world where such a thing WERE possible might impact society's treatment of the transgendered.
In the real world, there are also no wide variety of "races", such as dwarves, elves, etc. But look at how humans have treated OTHER HUMANS with slightly different heritable cosmetic features.
It's quite possible that fantasyland is just a nicer place than the real world.
Variant intelligent species trying to share our planet with us would be much more District 9 than Lord of the Rings.
So when considering what you are considering, you must consider also that fantasyland is no more or less than what its creators make of it.
Meanwhile, Pathfinder is a lot more about killing stuff, taking its treasure, and leveling up than it is about harmonious race and gender relations. Heck, unless I'm mistaken, Paizo intentionally designed PF humanoids to be less compatible with humans and demi-humans than they had been becoming in D&D -- you know, that whole Eberron thing.
Perhaps I am naive, but wouldn't a transgender PC not want magic to alter their body? I thought that a transgender was someone who wanted social and cultural recognition as a member of the opposite perceived gender without changing their sex--that someone who wanted to be the other sex as well as be recognized as the other perceived gender was a transsexual. Did I get that mixed up?Terminology is tricky. I believe transgender was originally a broader term covering both and some other related things, but it's become the preferred term for many people.
It's worth bringing up though that some people don't actually choose to alter their body or not to alter it beyond hormonal treatments. The trans-iconic may or may not be one of those. The only change referred to in the backstory is a HRT analogy.
Some of that is likely because of the imperfect nature of current surgery, so more would probably take a complete magical transformation, but some might well opt not to.
Well, the imperfect natures of it, and the irreversability. In fantasyland, you cast a spell and poof you are a new gender. If you realize that the grass isn't greener on the other side of the gender fence, you can switch back just as easily.
Also, the various magical disguises allow you to try on a different gender a lot easier than you can in real life.
I had a significant NPC in a long running campaign that was (magically) transgender, and I've played shapechangers and similar characters whose gender identity was very fluid. It's certainly true that the practical situation that a person with gender dysphoria faces in the real world is very different from that of such an individual in a fantasy world where magic like polymorph and the sex shift elixir exist.
Anyway, I think it's definitely very interesting to consider the gender politics of any given fantasy world, and I think it's a shame that people shy away from it so much. It seems to rarely be addressed, if ever. It seems like there's an assumption, for instance, of pretty much total gender equality in most fantasy worlds, and honestly that's a little bizarre, especially if we're thinking of these worlds as being even vaguely based on human societies of the past. Even if you are going to posit total sexual equality within a fantasy society, it would be nice to make it explicit and explore the idea a little.
I guess I can understand why people would be wary of delving too deeply into issues like that, and I certainly understand that aversion in games that are just about kicking in the door and looting treasure. But for more RP focused games, I think gender politics offer a lot of rarely explored potential.
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but how do you remain such a character once you're, say, level 10? You have so much gold that 2,250gp is a drop in the bucket.
By roleplaying the aftermath. The kinds of hardships or secondary tasks a transgendered person faces after they've undergone whatever ascribed corrective measures are available, Golarion or real life, can be plenty riveting as story material in its own right.
People have already mentioned bringing it up with the family, and that's just one. In real life, having a family that's disappointed with its transgendered members can lead to murder, now give the family the capacity to summon devils, or use magic to assert its gender views at the forced expense of another by trying to reverse the process, and you have entire story arcs of material after level 10.
What happens if half of the transgendered PC's party dies, and they have to start adventuring with a new one that doesn't know they were born of a different biological sex? That's another potential prompt.
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You need to open your eyes, sheeple. Gender, Race, Sexuality; these are all meaningless in Pathfinder.
The party talks over you, ignores you when you bore them and only cares as far as you can reward XP/Gold/sexual gratification. You live less of a life than a dog, cast aside when the choice of who to save is between you or "a real person".
The in-born, eternally damning quality of a being in RPGs, my friends, is being an NPC.
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You need to open your eyes, sheeple. Gender, Race, Sexuality; these are all meaningless in Pathfinder.
The party talks over you, ignores you when you bore them and only cares as far as you can reward XP/Gold/sexual gratification. You live less of a life than a dog, cast aside when the choice of who to save is between you or "a real person".
The in-born, eternally damning quality of a being in RPGs, my friends, is being an NPC.
#NotAllNPCs
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Now, to the OP, I've yet to build a transgendered PC, or play host to one as a GM. I have however built a transgendered NPC that I had written quite the extensive background on because
A) I had the time to get all the details down, because
B) They'll be a major NPC in the second act of a campaign.
Natia Sulerth was born a female peri-blooded aasimar in Isger to a family of nobles that had fanatically embraced the church of Asmodeus to ensure their position was preserved. Not wanting to risk scandal to rock their household, the father arranged for a devil to provide a Girdle of Opposite Gender, and used it on Natia. To hide the aasimar features and to try and provide a more masculine body type to "Nathaniel", the father also made sure Natia's food and drink had a small dosage of alchemical components that hid most of the features.
From essentially as soon as she was old enough to understand the concepts of male and female, Natia was torn between wanting her father's approval, and the distinct feeling that something was off. She eventually fled from home, thoroughly confused. She developed a habit of talking to a thrush about her doubts about being a man. She eventually had visions of her patron (of which the familiar was an agent), and took up witchcraft, focussing mainly on healing. (I typically have gods acting as patrons to witch characters, they can grant a wider array of fields than with clerics, but also have less of a hold on what the witch does with the spells, in this case Shelyn was the patron.)
While venturing Isger and plying her trade, Natia's behaviour regularly came across as odd to the people she would heal and assist across the countryside of Isger. Natia felt a need for the approval of others, and so could at times be rather prickly.
Eventually Natia was attacked by goblins, losing her thrush familiar and barely surviving herself. She made it to a natural wellspring. Over time as she recovered, the exposure to the wellspring removed the curse of the girdle and the last of the poisons, allowing her to gradually changed back. Shocked at the change, Natia nonetheless felt much more at piece with her state. While recovering at the wellspring she occasionally saw a unicorn at the edge of her vision. Once she had healed, Natia pursued the unicorn.
The unicorn was named Taranor, and has class levels as a Paladin of Shelyn. Natia cycles between thinking that Taranor was aware of her problems and resolved them, and thinking that the rather grumpy unicorn of a few centuries wanted to make sure his compatriot in healing Isger matched a unicorn's preference in travelling company (good aligned female virgins).
So we have on the surface a healing witch virgin that rides a unicorn, and they wander around spreading good and beauty wherever they go.
Behaviour-wise, Natia remains quiet about her past. She doesn't know she was born female, but at the same time in her current state knows some people would disapprove of her. For her part she doesn't tell others because their opinion of her has no bearing on whether or not she'll seek to help them. Rather than being open about it and having people reject her aid out of spite for the off-chance someone might affirm her feelings by complete agreement, she would rather do good and let the feeling of approval from her patron (from a connection with a new thrush familiar after a few months of mourning) is more than enough to make her feel content.
If/when players interact with her, it's very much possible for the detail to never come up. If asked about her past though, she'll be frank about it to the best of her ability. If a PC takes issue with her, she apologizes, and offers to leave.
The nature and root of the transgenderism in this case is no doubt a far cry from the actual mechanics of it in the real world, but hey, I needed to weave it into the campaign setting.
In the end I got the classic maiden/unicorn pairing with a unique twist.
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not quite a Transgender character, but i played a young male nymph who was an actor, who due to theatrical traditions, took on a female role, but the more he took his extremely common female roles, the more effeminate he saw himself, though this whole time he was anatomically male and most of the group assumed he was just a loligoth bard, and well, he played a convincing role to NPCs and nobody really got into his bloomers, because he always pushed them away, and nobody suspected he was really male, but the basic concept was based off an adaption of the Japanese kabuki theatre, where some young boys from kabuki wore female clothing and were raised as if they were girls for the earlier portions of their role to get them into the kabuki role by exposing them to living it 24/7 for so many years.
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this made me realize, not having a male heir shouldn't be a problem in pathfinder.
this made me realize, not having a male heir shouldn't be a problem in pathfinder.
...huh. I never really thought about that.
I'm pretty sure the noble will straight up disenfranchise the child if they don't.
Which of course then is coercion, which will probably backfire horribly once the heir starts having teenage issues with authority.
Sure, you have a son, but that doesn't help much when he shoots you with a crossbow and then flees the estate/kingdom. Your household is still (royally) screwed.
Which of course then is coercion, which will probably backfire horribly once the heir starts having teenage issues with authority.
Sure, you have a son, but that doesn't help much when he shoots you with a crossbow and then flees the estate/kingdom. Your household is still (royally) screwed.
eh, if they're doing it they're probably prepared for thing kinda shiznaz. anyway, stereotypical nobles will do what stereotypical nobles do best.