Sin's Subterfuge Guide v1


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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This is the original meaning of a guide. It is not a dressed up spreadsheet or step-by-step checklist of what to train and when. You'll still need to play your game your way.

Set up - A feat that can apply a state to the target (or sometimes an affect on you) that will give additional benefits to following attacks.
Finisher - A feat that uses the set up condition to apply extra effects.
Chain - Sequence linking the set up and finishing feats i.e. Feint-Shank. Feint applies Flat-footed while Shank applies a Precise bonus to hit and DoT affect to Flat-footed targets in addition to its regular damage and effects.

The Fine Print
There are two key elements not yet in the game that will make a big difference to Subterfuge users. Per the tabletop game everyone should be entering combat Flat-Footed unless they have Uncanny Dodge; since that is a very prominent state for Subterfuge attacks and reactives it will make a big difference. Second, sneak attack damage is a major factor from Rogue Feature feats that is not implemented in the game yet.

Another note is the difficulty in assigning a damage value to the Penetrating feature of attacks that have that because it is currently extra damage based on the target's resistance. It is planned to change into a reduction of the target's armor total in a future iteration.

Also, daggers and short blades are smaller weapons so almost all of their attacks are uninterruptible. The downside to that is they don't have as much juice in the upfront damage department to make up for the risk of being interrupted/out ranged like slower attacks have.

If you walk up to something with a dagger expecting to press a button and smack it as hard as a two-handed sword these weapons will seem a bit underpowered. You need teamwork between your armor, feature, reactive, utility, and attack feats. Most of all, appropriate for a category called Subterfuge, getting the most out of these weapons involves a little guile.

Dagger - The weapon invented before humans were invented (seriously, Homo Habilis had them, crack a book)
An uniquely fast weapon with very low stamina cost, you can strike five or even six times per round so even 25% chance of a state or magnitude 5 stackables add up very quickly. It doesn't set up most of its finishers, but the Feint utility is a great Flat-footed set up for two of them.

Basic Dagger Strike - relatively high upfront damage for younger Subterfugers.
Fan - Reflex defense is a Rogue strength and this adds 20 more* increasing the chance and amount of damage reduction from weapon and Reflex spell attacks. * It's true this changes to +40 if you have Opportunity, but you're also opening yourself up to Attacks of Opportunity so that is a big gamble. It very much depends on who is attacking you at the moment.
Forehand - weak upfront damage but it is great support to other finishers and chains (see below). Combined with Bleeding Attack reactive this can cause A LOT of bleeding really fast so you can spend most of your time not fighting and still win.
Round - Eight attacks in six seconds (5.28 damage factor per round plus the Penetrating damage for 72 stamina means it's deceptively one of the highest dps attacks of the weapon at lowest stamina cost). If you want to proc double Flat-Footed reactives, this is the feat that will do it expediciously. That is, of course, if you can live through standing there spamming Round so many times. There is a plan to someday normalize reactive affects so quick attacks don't have so much advantage in the area over slower weapons... but this is not that day.

Feint-Basic Dagger Exploit has a total of 71 Base Damage for relatively strong direct immediate damage for beginners when needed.
Feint-Shank has a slower slightly interruptible finish also with higher than normal damage, hit bonus, and good Bleeding affect. If you use this often slot Bleeding Attack reactive feat for even more bleeding. Double it up as Feint-Shank-Shank to really have someone in trouble, then follow with a series of Forehands to maintain and even build the DoT through the target's recovery. Which leads to...
Forehand-Footwork the speed of Forehand makes it likely Distressed will have a lot of uptime on the target to activate the slow as you jump 20m out of melee. The DoT stack will continue damage for you.

Short Blade (including short sword, rapier, cutlass) - Lots of people think pirates' favorite letter is RRRRRRRR, but really their heart belongs to the C.
Press - set up with Feint a few Presses can quickly apply penalties to hit and defense for longer fights.
Stop Cut - very fast, the rare 100% interrupt, no set up needed. Valuable when facing large slow weapons and spells if you react to the signs of opponent's big hits.

Thrust-Compound finishes with the heaviest hit you can get with the weapon and leaves a DoT to work, so this functions much better as an opening. If you start at full stamina try to double up for Thrust-Compound-Compound and a really big DoT after a chunk of damage.
Parry vs. Prime - A choice of two defensive feats. Prime gives +10 Reflex defense to help reduce weapon and Reflex spell damage for the entire round. Parry is +20 Reflex until you get hit once then turns into Riposte for +30 to your next melee attack (the green up chevron goes from the shield to the sword). Parry can be used several times in a round depending on the rate of taking hits and attacking. Prime is for max defense at all costs. I'm inclined to use Parry since making things dead faster also reduces damage taken.
Thrust-Parry(let it change to Riposte)-Compound to get the +30 hit bonus on top of +20 from the feat itself to essentially hit one Tier higher than your weapon actually is (almost guaranteed full damage and a really good chance at critical and you may be using a critical reactive feat, see Pro-Reactive below). Make sure you have enough stamina to roll out all three or Distressed can easily fall off before you get to Compound.

Shortbow - Only five more strings then you have an axe.
The 20m range is the same as NPC's agro range, so have fun with that.

Distant Shot - ZOMG FLAMING ARROWS!! The higher stamina cost gets you 35m longbow range, a minor DoT, and freakin' flaming arrows man. With a weapon swap this may also substitute as the set up for Compound or Footwork chains as the target closes to melee but avoid shooting bows in melee with enemies that have Attacks of Opportunity.
Deadly Aim - a stamina expensive extra large damage attack with a major bonus to hit, for when you want to open with a bang or finish something off. Not recommended for the middle of a fight because it can leave you stamina deficient (unless you have a partner with Dazed to set it up for you, then it will be killer).
Multi-Shot - the long blast makes it a pretty decent AoE for dealing with many small targets in a long cone shape. When everyone begins combat Flat-Footed it will be automatically set up as an opener and even more effective.

Running Shot-Snap Shot-Snap Shot gives yourself extra Reflex defense while slowing the target and creating a gap (in practice the gap is still hit and miss for me, if it works you may need to take a step towards the target to get in range for the second Snap Shot). Remember Dodging needs to be on you as the set up condition, so at the end of a melee exchange a dagger's Fan feat can also set it up without provoking Opportunity like Running Shot will. Slow applies a Reflex defense penalty, so you could jump into melee with a Compound chain taking advantage of the lower defense and leaving melee range again. Like I said at the beginning, Subterfugers benefit from some guile.

Pro-Reactive

Rogue reactives are AWESOME. They proc if you hit while the target has Flat-Footed and the Feint utility can keep that state on your target pretty much all the time if you want so the reactives can be very reliable. The key thing to remember here is each stackable debuff works in a specific channel and only the highest magnitude debuff in each channel will have an affect on the target. BLEEDING, DRAINED, AND OBLIVIOUS ARE ON THE SAME CHANNEL if you use two of those as your reactives only one can ever be working at a time while the other goes wasted.

(Weakness)Befuddling Strike - a strong penalty to attack and perception.
(Weakness)Bleeding Attack - a DoT based on max HP and Fort penalty.
(Weakness)Crippling Strike - penalty to attack and defense.
Again, if you use more than one debuff from the Weakness channel, only one of them can ever work at a time. Though you can combine the same debuff from other places if that is best for your strategy i.e. slotting Deafening Critical and Befuddling Strike and using Deception feat which all apply the same attack/perception debuff, they will stack on each other.
(Torment)Slowed Reactions - reduced movement and Reflex penalty.

As for utilities, Feint is almost required since so much Subterfuge is based on Flat-footed. Evade is also very handy for separation when light armor needs to get out of the fire. Tumble and Resiliency are two closely related defensive utilities. Tumble increases your Reflex +20 for two rounds (with a two round cool down so it can be up nearly all the time) which helps against weapons and reflex spells like the fireballs and snow balls NPCs seem to be so fond of; if you use dagger Fan quickly gives the exact same defense which frees a utility slot. Resiliency gives physical resistance which at Tier 1 will put you between medium and heavy armor levels of protection for one of every three rounds.

Feature Presentation

All rogue feature feats give sneak attack damage and a chance to slow attack speed on Flat-footed attacks. A minor difference is in the keywords offered for sneaky tricks, the rogue expendables. The major difference comes with the second way each feat can grant sneak attack damage (you get regular sneak attack damage even if both conditions are met simultaneously).

Cut-throat - while untargeted. The feat for the super sneaky. Obviously much more difficult to use when alone. Remember even if you get targeted you can still get sneak attack from Flat-footed.
Opportunist - on Opportunity. You get sneak attack damage if the target has either Flat-footed or Opportunity. Makes no difference, killer.
Daredevil - on Opportunity to self. You get sneak attack damage if YOU have Opportunity and are also open to getting nailed by attacks enhanced by Opportunity. This is good if you plan on being a mainly bow rogue (you can still Feint to get sneak attack in melee), or spend a lot of time chasing things down.

How Do I Make My Attacks Stronger?

Once you have the basics down you'll want your character to start increasing in power and this is the part of the guide that helps you get your sheet together.

Weapons all have a Base Damage of 40; then gain a bonus +5 damage per minor keyword matched with its feat and +20 damage per matched major keyword. You get one major keyword at Tier 2 and another at Tier 3. When a keyword matches between gear and feat I call it "kp" for keyword points (or keyword power if you prefer) where each minor is 1 kp and majors are 4 kp up to a maximum cap of 12 kp on an attack.

Gear tells you what keywords it has at each level of enhancement i.e where Longswords say "grants keywords based on upgrade: Slashing (+0), Sharp (+1), Balanced(+2), Razored (+3)". If you have a starter Steel Longsword that is +0 so it only has Slashing to pair with feats no matter how highly trained they are for 1 kp total. A Steel Longsword +2 has Slashing, Sharp, and Balanced for potentialy 3kp or +15 Base Damage. A Tier 2 Dwarven Steel Longsword +1 has the Masterwork major keyword with Slashing and Sharp minors for 4+1+1= 6 kp or +30 Base Damage. It takes a Tier 3 + 3 weapon with two major and four minor keywords to have the most powerful possible weapon at 12 kp for +60 Base Damage (if your feat is trained to match all of those keywords).

Weapon feats gain potential keyword matches in a specific order from rank 1 to rank 6: +0, +1, +2, Tier 2, +3, Tier 3. At rank 4 you can match the T2 major keyword on a weapon but not the +3 minor keyword, you have to train up to rank 5 for that. Other feats for armor, features, reactives, utilities, etc. gain keywords at different rates but it works basically the same.

Armor Bonus

Chameleon - bonus to stealth, persuasion, and a huge bonus to Improved Critical for the sneaky killer types. Footpad's Leathers are best, Strapped Leather in T2.
Scout - bonus to stealth, perception, ranged attack, and small speed boost. Good for those who use mainly bows or want to go skulking around unnoticed in unfriendly places. Quiet Iron Shirt is best, Boiled Leather in T2.
Swashbuckler - giant bonus to light melee attack and the most hp and reflex defense of the group. This is the Bronn. Or the highwayman. Quiet Iron Shirt is best, Muffled Steel Shirt in T2.

Notes

*You can dual wield short sword and dagger either way, even dagger main and short sword offhand if you want a strategy based around Fan-Forehand-Compound DoT with Short Sword's bigger direct damage Exploit.

*I worked out all this stuff using rank 2 Pioneer armor (Freeholder light, no rogue bonuses, because I already had it. Actual rogue armor will work much better for everything here) with 7 physical resist and 68 Reflex defense, light melee 2, ranged attack 3, rank 1 Daredevil, reactives, and starter weapons, all of which can be trained within the first two days of a character's life.

*That said, this is how I repeatedly killed yellow-named Chainbreaker Ogres in 100% melee:

-Stealth close, Feint-Shank-Shank (with Bleeding Attack 1 reactive that's 37 each, 74 total Bleeding in roughly five seconds).
-Fan to reduce damage taken then Forehand repeatedly (+5 Bleeding per hit, stack reduces ~10 per round, but cap is 100 so application phase will be quick) until Distress is applied, Footwork. This applies Slow 20 and makes me 10m away. I jog around in safety while the huge DoT goes to work (I could be attacking something else if this was a big chaotic battle).
-When the stack is a little over half size, I run back to the ogre for Feint-Shank-Shank. More direct damage and this +74 has capped the Bleeding at 100 so I immediately Footwork away. Ogre will be dead imminently.

(If the fight was longer I could Fan-Forehand to Distressed-Footwork as needed for the defensive bonus and Slow for my inter-DoT jogging session.)

Tactical summary of 2 day old Subterfuger killing Ogres: Chainbreaker Ogres are heavy interrupters that can do damage but daggers are almost entirely uninterruptible. Quickly apply a heavy DoT then run away to spend most of your time not being attacked. Duh it's a freakin ogre, man.

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:

The Fine Print

There are two key elements not yet in the game that will make a big difference to Subterfuge users. Per the tabletop game everyone should be entering combat Flat-Footed unless they have Uncanny Dodge; since that is a very prominent state for Subterfuge attacks and reactives it will make a big difference. Second, sneak attack damage is a major factor from Rogue Feature feats that is not implemented in the game yet.

I'm not sure of this, but I think sneak attack damage from Rogue feats like Opportunist is actually in the game. When I have Opportunist slotted and I'm attacking targets that give me opportunity, I do +25 damage over my normal opportunity exploit attacks (with spear, so it might mean +10 damage * attack's damage factor).

Goblinworks Game Designer

Great guide. Few nitpicks/clarifications:

Sneak Attack damage is implemented, just Sneak Attacks always triggering Flat-Footed effects is not implemented yet. Getting Sneak Attack does give you +10 base damage. But long term you shouldn't need to rely on Feint to qualify for Flat-Footed conditionals, if you can achieve your Sneak Attack trigger.

Daredevil is likely to change to "Targeted" instead of self Opportunity as soon as we get combat feature programming time (it's an easy change). And it may change again if that's still not working as intended and we need to do something more complicated. But, ultimately, Daredevil is meant to be the "I get sneak attack because I'm doing crazy things to attack my opponents' weak spots at great risk to myself" feat, not the archery feat. I just want to reiterate that this is changing before people get their hearts set on always getting sneak attack with bows :) .

Oblivious and Drained won't stack their attack penalty (because they both hit Base Attack) but Drained and Bleeding will stack (because Drained reduces Base Defense and Bleeding reduces Fortitude Defense). Channel stacking is per trait modified (and the base and specific versions of attack and defense are separate traits for those purposes). I'm not sure the down chevrons make that clear, though, but checking on your character sheet should reflect it (when the character sheet isn't outputting its other stacking debuff display bugs :) ).

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Thanks, Sin. Nice counterpart to your martial guide.

Goblin Squad Member

Next up: Sin's Arcane Guide v1

4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4...

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Nice guide.

Similar to with the Daggers, a straight forward heavy damage option for Short Sword beginners is Feint-Basic Exploit. Because of the speed, you can get a number of Basic Exploits in before the condition wears off, and kill beginner mobs in 3 hits, often before they have a chance to hit you more than once if at all.

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:

Next up: Sin's Arcane Guide v1

4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4...

At this point it's more like:

5, 5, ~, 3, 3, 5, 3, 3, 5, 3, 3, 5

That is:

Killing Joke, Killing Joke, swap to Wand, Flare, Flare, Windrider, Flare, Flare, Windrider, etc.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:

Next up: Sin's Arcane Guide v1

4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4...

At this point it's more like:

5, 5, ~, 3, 3, 5, 3, 3, 5, 3, 3, 5

That is:

Killing Joke, Killing Joke, swap to Wand, Flare, Flare, Windrider, Flare, Flare, Windrider, etc.

Oh my gosh you need almost all of the vowels to write that Arcane guide!

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Daredevil is likely to change to "Targeted" instead of self Opportunity as soon as we get combat feature programming time (it's an easy change). And it may change again if that's still not working as intended and we need to do something more complicated. But, ultimately, Daredevil is meant to be the "I get sneak attack because I'm doing crazy things to attack my opponents' weak spots at great risk to myself" feat, not the archery feat. I just want to reiterate that this is changing before people get their hearts set on always getting sneak attack with bows :) .

I use Daredevil since it lets me get the Sneak Attack in while moving around opponents in melee and putting myself in danger. It allows for consistent Sneak Attack controlled more by my movement than by other factors. I hope it continues to work as such when altered.

Goblin Squad Member

Piecemeal Brigantine matches keywords with Scout. Is there a reason Quiet Iron is better?

(You might want to point out that the Scout feat is a harder one to level past 7 as it requires 11 Wis)

Goblin Squad Member

In that part I was repeating what's in the Combat Guide in a useful location since I haven't used any Light armor personally except Loose Warrior's Shirt for gathering, never heard of Piecemeal Brigandine before.

I'd be happy to leave it somewhere linkable and editable to keep information current, where would that place be? I've also been considering passing the time to EE with a gathering guide or a your first week in early enrollment guide.

Goblin Squad Member

Piecemeal Brigandine is an Uncommon T1 light armor crafted by Leatherworkers. It's not widely used yet but it's good armor and does match well with Scout.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

Great guide. Few nitpicks/clarifications:

Sneak Attack damage is implemented, just Sneak Attacks always triggering Flat-Footed effects is not implemented yet. Getting Sneak Attack does give you +10 base damage. But long term you shouldn't need to rely on Feint to qualify for Flat-Footed conditionals, if you can achieve your Sneak Attack trigger.

So sneak attack damage is supposed to happen when either the target is Flat-footed or meets the other feature condition, and you're saying that right now sneak attack damage is not triggering from the target being Flat-footed?

By the way, what if I wanted to use these features with, say, a hypothetical gigantic two-handed weapon with lots of 2.5 and 3.6 df feats? It's working as intended that I'd get the +10 base damage on those strikes too?

Goblinworks Game Designer

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:

Great guide. Few nitpicks/clarifications:

Sneak Attack damage is implemented, just Sneak Attacks always triggering Flat-Footed effects is not implemented yet. Getting Sneak Attack does give you +10 base damage. But long term you shouldn't need to rely on Feint to qualify for Flat-Footed conditionals, if you can achieve your Sneak Attack trigger.

So sneak attack damage is supposed to happen when either the target is Flat-footed or meets the other feature condition, and you're saying that right now sneak attack damage is not triggering from the target being Flat-footed?

No. I'm saying that the +10 damage from Sneak Attack is triggering both from the special conditional per feature and Flat-Footed (e.g., if you have Cut-Throat, you'll get +10 damage if you're untargeted and/or the target is Flat-Footed). However, what is not happening yet is if you meet the non-Flat-Footed conditional, you should also count it as meeting Flat-Footed (e.g., if you have Cut-Throat, if you are untargeted but the person you're attacking does not actually have Flat-Footed, you should still trigger all your "if target is Flat-Footed" conditionals for attacks and reactives).

Quote:
By the way, what if I wanted to use these features with, say, a hypothetical gigantic two-handed weapon with lots of 2.5 and 3.6 df feats? It's working as intended that I'd get the +10 base damage on those strikes too?

Yep. And you'll eventually treat the target as Flat-Footed as well. The thing is, bigger weapons are unlikely to have Flat-Footed conditionals on their attacks. So once the system is working correctly, Rogues should be triggering Flat-Footed conditionals all the time, and will want as many things that take advantage of that as possible, so it will be advantageous to stay with the weapons that have Flat-Footed conditionals.

Goblin Squad Member

As a rogue relying on short bow most of the time, should I take staggering/stunning critical to go along with one of the weakness one? I feel it is useful soloing with a bow, also with current group tactics, the AI being as it is.

Goblin Squad Member

With my Rogue, I solo a lot of mobs with my short bow. Often will use Evasion if they get to close. I currently have equipped Bleeding Attack and Stunning Critical for my Reactive Feats.

Often go Distant Shot twice before they get in range for my Quick Shot. Quick Shot has Bleeding 5 and I can usually get 4-5 shots off before I need to use Evasion. It works well for me.

Note: I'm not sure if Stunning Critical is working yet, but have it equipped anyway. 2 second Stun is just sweet.

Goblin Squad Member

iIRC Stun is one of those that only works in PvP .. Sorry!

Goblin Squad Member

I will go with staggering then, as the 2 I have at the moment are in the same channel.

Would staggering crit with multi-shot slow all of them?

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

I will go with staggering then, as the 2 I have at the moment are in the same channel.

Would staggering crit with multi-shot slow all of them?

It's supposed to proc on each crit, so in theory yes though I haven't had a multi-crit yet to confirm. See below for my post about an ongoing clarification of Daredevil, rogue reactives, and how that could affect your bow use.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
However, what is not happening yet is if you meet the non-Flat-Footed conditional, you should also count it as meeting Flat-Footed (e.g., if you have Cut-Throat, if you are untargeted but the person you're attacking does not actually have Flat-Footed, you should still trigger all your "if target is Flat-Footed" conditionals for attacks and reactives).

For Daredevil, the condition could (will?) someday be "on Targeted". In that situation when targeted do you get the feature bonus only on an entity that is targeting you causing it to be activated, or on anyone you attack so long as someone is targeting you?

Goblinworks Game Designer

Only on the person that's targeting you. (Just like, right now Cut-Throat should be proccing against anyone that's not targeting you, even if someone else is.)

Goblin Squad Member

So perhaps daredevil is for a puller rogue, while cut-throat is better for a support rogue.

Goblin Squad Member

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Getting around to putting this in a linkable/downloadable space and making sure this link to Sin's Subterfuge Guide actually works.


works for me

Goblin Squad Member

Thank you for sharing this guide!

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