Titan fighter + Titan mauler = dual wielding 2 large greatswords


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Am I reading it wrong that by combining Giant weapon wielder and Jotungrip class abilities of fighter and barbarian one could potentially wield 2 large two-handed weapons?


Jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

Emphasis mine. A large greatsword, or even a large longsword, is not properly sized for a medium character and nothing in the titan fighter's "giant weapon wielder" ability seems to make it so.


I don't know about the Giant Weapon Wielder Fighter class ability or what the Titan Fighter Archetype is(or if it is even one) but if they were worded like this 3.5 Feat I'd say yes but as I said I don't know about the fighter Archetype and class ability if you'd post them it'd be very helpful.


Titan Fighter wrote:

Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex)

At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an over-sized two-handed weapon.

This ability replaces the fighter's 1st level bonus feat.


Thanks for posting the description. I'd have to agree with Tonlim about due to the appropriately size part of the Jotungrip class feature this couldn't work.

Scarab Sages

Just think of the vital strike. Large greatsword does 3d6. Enlarge Person/Righteous Might ups it to 4d6. Lead Blades 6d6. If you have the final Vital Strike feat you are hitting for 24d6, although you may be better with a nodachi for 16d8 but a better crit range and brace.


Dosent look like it would work. But hitting things would be next to impossible even if it did.


TheTheos wrote:
Titan Fighter wrote:

Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex)

At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an over-sized two-handed weapon.

This ability replaces the fighter's 1st level bonus feat.

Still doesn't work - that ability doesn't actually make that weapon "appropriately-sized."


What book is the titan fighter in?


fel_horfrost wrote:
What book is the titan fighter in?

Pathfinder Player Companion: Giant Hunter's Handbook


Titan fighter treats a large weapon as a two hander that is appropriate for your size at the expense of to hit chance. Jotungrip allows you to weild two handers as one handers at the expense of to hit. Seems legal, but you are looking at -6/-6 to hit I think, which would make this combo unviable.

Edit: I think it's actually -8 to hit. I feel like the titan fighter ability should override the clause in the jotungrip write up, but I could see people denying the interaction due to the specific wording. Still, seems like a pretty silly point to get stuck on when the titan fighter treats large weapons as medium weapons at a penalty. Either way, every swing is more or less a hail Mary pass from space.


Trogdar wrote:
Titan fighter treats a large weapon as a two hander that is appropriate for your size at the expense of to hit chance. Jotungrip allows you to weild two handers as one handers at the expense of to hit. Seems legal, but you are looking at -6/-6 to hit I think, which would make this combo unviable.

Both archetypes reduce those penalties with higher lvls. So at higher lvls penalty will be insignificant. Also bonuses from rage help a lot.

Scarab Sages

Dual-wielding them would still have significant penalties from TWF with non-light weapons, would require more dex than you would otherwise need, a large feat investment, and would be losing on two handed str bonuses.

A single giant weapon with vital-strike/furious finish is going to be a stronger option.


TheTheos wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
Titan fighter treats a large weapon as a two hander that is appropriate for your size at the expense of to hit chance. Jotungrip allows you to weild two handers as one handers at the expense of to hit. Seems legal, but you are looking at -6/-6 to hit I think, which would make this combo unviable.
Both archetypes reduce those penalties with higher lvls. So at higher lvls penalty will be insignificant. Also bonuses from rage help a lot.

I guess if you could recoup half of those penalties through class features(excluding rage), then with rage you would be like a paladin without smite for the fairly meager benefit of a larger weapon die.


Oh, and I think an item just came out that can make weapons lighter.... Some kind of ribbon?


There's a trait that halves oversized weapon penalties in that book, as well as a slotless wondrous item that reduces them by another 2. You can get it down to normal TWF penalties, I'm pretty sure.

Grand Lodge

So, you might be able to wield this clumsy combination, but you will never do so effectively. This is one of those approaches that seems like it would work well, but doesn't. You'll be much more effective if you wield one big reach weapon with two hands. Your damage numbers will seem slightly smaller, but you will hit regularly. Considering all the AoOs you may get (depends on the cleverness of your tactics) you will probably inflict considerably more damage.


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It'll be as effective as usual TWF, with slightly higher base dmg die in exchange for more resources spent on it.

In fact, he could TWF with oversized reach weapons too, so a slight edge there as well.

Shadow Lodge

It looks cool but unfortunately its not as effective as other options. You can try to make this work but you will have a hard time doing it at max you can get them work at -4/-4 but thats quite a harsh penalty. You would need something which reduces penalties further. On the top of my head i really dont recall something such as that


That's not counting power attack penalties either


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Titan Fighter does not state that Large weapons are considered appropriately sized for you, thus the restriction in Jotungrip still holds.

You cannot combine Titan Fighter and Jotungrip.


The increased -2 penalty (for a total of -4) compared to normal TWF and the damage increase of 2d8->2d10 is exactly the same as PA's -2 to hit for +4 damage.


Hum some other thread (boy can not remember what one) someone mentioend some sort of ribben that made a weapon count as a size smaller or something?
I wonder if that woud help?

Edit found the post in question

Kalindlara wrote:
Y'all might want to pick up the Giant Hunter's Handbook when it comes out. There's an item called the Effortless Lace that can make any weapon count as light for Weapon Finesse and similar effects. 2,500 gp, if I recall correctly, although sundering or dispelling ruins it.

In this thread http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rrea?Weapon-Finesse-and-Reach#23

I can't see that item as I don't have that pdf/book. But maybe that will help. Sorta depends on how the item ends up being worded. Since it might allow for playing around with some sizes and how they count as one handed/light depending on size compared to user size. Bit weird to try but thought I'd still bring it up


LoneKnave wrote:
The increased -2 penalty (for a total of -4) compared to normal TWF and the damage increase of 2d8->2d10 is exactly the same as PA's -2 to hit for +4 damage.

How did you get that? To me it looks like -4 for +2


-2 compared to normal TWF, +4 for on average from 2d8->2d10.

EDIT: *facepalm* made a miscalculation, yeah, it's just +2. Still only a -2 penalty compared to normal TWF tho, if you got the right equipment/traits and are a high enough level.

EDIT2: Okay, serious math time.

With effortless lace, the best (exotic) medium one handed weapon to TWF with would have 1d8 (4,5) damage, 18-20/x2 crit mod (or possibly falcata with 19-20/x3).

Compared to that if you grab a (possibly exotic) medium two handed weapon with Titan Mauler, you are getting 1d10 (5,5) with same crit (and possibly reach/trip/etc).

So -2 compared to normal TWF (putting you at -4) for +1 avg damage. Bummer.

If the Titan Fighter's first level ability stacks with this (and I can see that by RAW it probably shouldn't but let the man math here), that 1d10 increases to 2d8(9).

Now, that's -2 for a 4,5. That's slightly better than PA.

If they both get enlarged, 1d8 becomes 2d6 (7), while 2d8 becomes 3d8 (13,5), so now the difference is 6,5, for -2, which is almost a good deal, considering all the effort you had to go through to get here.

I don't even know what happens if these get Impact/Lead blades on them.


Trogdar wrote:

Titan fighter treats a large weapon as a two hander that is appropriate for your size at the expense of to hit chance. Jotungrip allows you to weild two handers as one handers at the expense of to hit. Seems legal, but you are looking at -6/-6 to hit I think, which would make this combo unviable.

Edit: I think it's actually -8 to hit. I feel like the titan fighter ability should override the clause in the jotungrip write up, but I could see people denying the interaction due to the specific wording. Still, seems like a pretty silly point to get stuck on when the titan fighter treats large weapons as medium weapons at a penalty. Either way, every swing is more or less a hail Mary pass from space.

It wouldn't be legal. The fighter ability only lets you use two-handed weapons made for creatures one size category larger than you as if they were two-handed weapons.

Basically, if you are Medium size, a Large light weapon is One-Handed, a Large one-handed weapon is two-handed, a Large two-handed weapon is still two-handed (as opposed to being unwieldable) but at an additional -2 penalty (so -4 total?).

Shadow Lodge

Gauss wrote:

Titan Fighter does not state that Large weapons are considered appropriately sized for you, thus the restriction in Jotungrip still holds.

You cannot combine Titan Fighter and Jotungrip.

Two handed weapons are appropriately sized for you. Titan Fighter lets you treat large two handed weapons as two handed weapons.

Jotungrip lets you weild a two handed weapon in one hand, thus it works.

I dont really think its balance a problem, the whole idea is completely subpar anyway.

Lantern Lodge

Where is this titan fighter?

Nevermind. ("facepalms")

Scarab Sages

Actually, It would work with a large double weapon. 2d6 in each hand with only a -6/-6 penalty is better than 3d6 with -10/-10

Lantern Lodge

Just remember:

"A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."


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ElementalXX, not according to the rules section covering appropriately sized weapons.

If you are Medium size and use a Large 1-handed weapon it is counted as a 2-handed weapon for you. It is not appropriately sized for you because it is Large and you are Medium.

Titan Fighter's Giant Weapon Wielder ability allows a Medium creature to use a Large 2-handed weapon (at a -2 attack penalty) and still count it as a 2-handed weapon for you. That does not change the fact that it is not appropriately sized for you. Nowhere in the ability does it state that it changes it's effective size for you.

Jotungrip states that you can only use appropriately sized 2-handed weapons (ie: Medium 2-handed weapons).

If, Titan Fighter's Giant Weapon Wielder ability stated something like: "This allows you to count a Large 2-handed weapon as a Medium 2-handed weapon but with a -2 attack penalty." then, you could use it with Jotungrip.


Gauss wrote:

ElementalXX, not according to the rules section covering appropriately sized weapons.

If you are Medium size and use a Large 1-handed weapon it is counted as a 2-handed weapon for you. It is not appropriately sized for you because it is Large and you are Medium.

Titan Fighter's Giant Weapon Wielder ability allows a Medium creature to use a Large 2-handed weapon (at a -2 attack penalty) and still count it as a 2-handed weapon for you. That does not change the fact that it is not appropriately sized for you. Nowhere in the ability does it state that it changes it's effective size for you.

Jotungrip states that you can only use appropriately sized 2-handed weapons (ie: Medium 2-handed weapons).

If, Titan Fighter's Giant Weapon Wielder ability stated something like: "This allows you to count a Large 2-handed weapon as a Medium 2-handed weapon but with a -2 attack penalty." then, you could use it with Jotungrip.

Highlarious... Parsing rules grammar into oblivion since nineteen seventy two.

Grand Lodge

LoneKnave wrote:
The increased -2 penalty (for a total of -4) compared to normal TWF and the damage increase of 2d8->2d10 is exactly the same as PA's -2 to hit for +4 damage.

When you wield a weapon in two hands the Power Attack numbers are -2 to hit for +6 damage. Power attack works best for two handed fighting. These penalties are the same as (numerically inferior) TWF power attack.

This outsized TWF might possibly be made to work, but it's an inferior fighting style that won't be very effective.


Trogdar, yup...it is what you have to do in Rules Forums.

Note: How I respond is not how I would rule (houserule) in my own games. My position in a rules forum should never be taken as some kind of proof of the way I run games.


I am comparing it to TWF. We all already know 1 weapon in 2 hands>>>>> 2 weapons, there's nothing to discuss there.


So what is the point of the clause, "as if it was a two handed weapon"?


To clarify the penalties if someone were to houserule this combo into existence:
TWF one-handed weapons: -4
Jotungrip: -2
Inappropriately Sized Weapon: -2
Giant Weapon Wielder: -2
Total penalty for TWF this combo: -10attack
Damage dice (assuming Greatsword): 3d6 (average 10.5)

Compare to TWF with two Sawtooth Sabres (with exotic weapon proficiency):
TWF Sawtooth: -2
Damage dice: 1d8 (4.5 average)

So you have gained 6points of damage for a -8 attack penalty. Not good.

Shadow Lodge

Gauss your very suspicius reading would make the Titan Fighter ability not make sense at all. You are deliberately ruling an ability to make it non functional. Quoting SKR "dont read a rule as if you were retarded"

Its pretty clear its intended to "wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself" if thats not clear enough for you I doubt anything will be.

EDit: i just read your concern was for jotungrip, i apologize if it sounded agressive. Yes there is the apropiately sized rule but the ability but this is an exception to the rule. Its exactly the same as the general rule that moving is a move action, there are abilities that let you make an exception to that rule. In this case a large two handed weapon is for all purposes and intents a Two Handed weapon in your hands. This means it is apropiately sized for you. It does not explicitly say its medium but its easy to infere it meant meadium. Else it can be anything, it could be a considered a gargantuan two handed weapon for the matter. If abilities are to work then this weapon needs to be considered two handed medium


Gauss wrote:

To clarify the penalties if someone were to houserule this combo into existence:

TWF one-handed weapons: -4
Jotungrip: -2
Inappropriately Sized Weapon: -2
Giant Weapon Wielder: -2
Total penalty for TWF this combo: -10attack
Damage dice (assuming Greatsword): 3d6 (average 10.5)

Compare to TWF with two Sawtooth Sabres (with exotic weapon proficiency):
TWF Sawtooth: -2
Damage dice: 1d8 (4.5 average)

So you have gained 6points of damage for a -8 attack penalty. Not good.

You are not taking into account Effortless Lace (which is why I made the calculations with a 1d8 one handed weapon) and Titan Mauler's ability to reduce the penalties, and that trait (name I can't remember) that cuts them in half. The final penalty after all that will be -4/-4 (normal TWF penalty+Jotungrip; as far as I know there's no way to get that reduced), compared to "normal" TWF -2/-2.

Just to reiterate the calculations above, it comes down to about +4.5 dmg normally, +6,5 enlarged.


Trogdar, because the appropriately sized weapon rules reclassify weapons based on the effort required. Prior to this ability there was no way to reclassify a Large Two-Handed weapon as an inappropriately sized Two-handed weapon for a Medium wielder.

CRB p144 wrote:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

Just because the measure of effort has been stretched to allow Large two-handed weapons to count as a Two-handed weapon for a medium creature does NOT change that it is still inappropriately sized for the medium creature.

For that to have happened they would have had to insert specific wording for that.
Note: if they had then the penalty would drop from -2(inappropriate size) + -2(Giant Weapon Wielder) = -4 to -2(Giant Weapon Wielder).
However, they actually wrote in that it is an additional -2 penalty to attack thus stacking with the original -2 penalty for inappropriate size.


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ElementalXX, I was not the first person to state that it doesn't work for the exact reasons I provided.

Giant Weapon Wielder makes perfect sense. For a Medium creature, it takes an inappropriately sized weapon that cannot be used (Large 2-handed weapon) and makes it an inappropriately sized weapon that CAN be used (Large 2-handed weapon that counts as Medium 2-handed weapon due to the "effort" section of the rules.)

This is all covered in the inappropriately sized rules section in the paragraph on the "effort" required. I have quoted the relevant paragraph above.

You will note that changing the "effort" required has no bearing on whether or not the weapon is an inappropriately sized weapon.


LoneKnave, could you quote the relevant rules you are using to reduce the attack penalties? I know someone who would probably love such a build in his home game.


Man, I really need to stop reading rules forums. So, the short answer is basically; jotungrip is completely useless for anything you actually want to use it for because it includes a clause that says so.

Shadow Lodge

Gauss i just edited my post, TLDR: weapon needs to be considered two handed medium or else the ability does not work as intended.


ElementalXX, again, the inappropriately sized rules have two sections. The first states that any weapon that is not correctly sized is inappropriately sized. The second classifies the effort involved.

Giant Weapon Wielder is clearly altering the second paragraph by reclassifying the effort involved. It is not actually changing the weapon size and is not altering the inappropriate size rules.

The ability works fine as written. It simply does not work in conjunction with Jotungrip (which is an ability from an entirely different class anyhow).


Trogdar, the Devs specifically errata'd the clause into Jotungrip to prevent things like TWF + Large Bastard Sword. There was once a time where that was a build until the errata.

Jotungrip is specifically intended (as shown by the Errata FAQ) to allow a (Medium) creature to TWF things like a Medium sized Two-handed weapon. Not incorrectly sized weapons.

Yes, this does not mesh (at all) with the Massive Weapons ability of Titan Mauler and because of it many people houserule it.

Edit: Fixed faulty memory. It may have been that the original author posted his original version before the Paizo editors got it and that was what I remembered.


Gauss wrote:
LoneKnave, could you quote the relevant rules you are using to reduce the attack penalties? I know someone who would probably love such a build in his home game.

The titan mauler has Massive Weapons.

With nothing else, this alone will reduce the penalty by 4 at lvl 12 (well, lvl13 because you need a fighter level).

Effortless Lace and the trait are in the Giant Hunter's handbook, so I can't quote those, not online yet. Effortless lace is a 2500GP wondrous item that reduces oversized penalties by 2, or TWF penalties by 2 when using one handed weapons. The trait halves the penalty for using oversized weapons.

There's also a Tiefling trait that just goes

Quote:
You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.

also Superior Clutch


I... They errata'd that in? What kind of... This is like being told that using big weapons is badwrongfun by a dev. What a waste of resources.


Massive Weapons will reduce your penalty to attack due to inappropriately sized weapons (which is only -2 in this case).
It will not (by RAW) apply to Giant Weapon Wielder although I could see a GM houseruling it. (Houserule rationale: It is not a stretch to think of the Giant Weapon Wielder penalty as being an element of the inappropriately sized weapon rules.)

The Tiefling trait is not a trait, it is a variant ability that requires GM approval. It would make this entire thread moot.

Scarab Sages

The Titan Fighter itself has a class ability to reduce penalties as well.

Titan Fighter wrote:

Incredible Heft (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan fighter becomes

more skilled at wielding weapons intended for creatures
one size category larger than himself. The penalty on
attack rolls for using such weapons is reduced by 1,
including when using oversized two-handed weapons.
At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter, this penalty is
reduced by another 1 (minimum 0). This ability replaces
armor training.

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