This ring, how does it work?


Rules Questions

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According to the general rules for activation of a magical item, mental activation is an option for magic items.

However if you look at the magic item rules, specifically for rings, the rules list certain ways to use them.
One is "command word" to activate it, its effects work continually, and the last method is unusual activation which much be specified in the ring's description.

So is mental activation an option for a ring or must you use a command word unless mental activation is called out? If mental activation is an option how do you know which rings use it?

Liberty's Edge

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It's questions like these that turn members of the PDT into alcoholics. Though, I did hit the FAQ just so I can have the opportunity to say "FIRST"! That, and to be able to drink the tears of sorrow from those who are wrong.


For reference, the actual rules text in question:

Rings wrote:
Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description.

Also, without taking a stance on the question, another section that's been brought up since it discusses both rings and activation:

Use Activated wrote:

This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. a character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.


HangarFlying wrote:
It's questions like these that turn members of the PDT into alcoholics. Though, I did hit the FAQ just so I can have the opportunity to say "FIRST"! That, and to be able to drink the tears of sorrow from those who are wrong.

I honestly don't know what you mean by your post.

@Wraithstrike: I think that is an excellent question and I would definitely like a clarification of some kind.
I suspect that the answer will be that any ring that specifically mention that it is activated by mental command (which to my knowledge is none of the pregenerated ones) is activated as such, while the others (all of them) are activated using command word.

Sovereign Court

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Certain items become less useful if you need a command word to activate them, thanks to wanting to maintain stealth, operating while in a silence, and a few other conditions.


Lifat wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
It's questions like these that turn members of the PDT into alcoholics. Though, I did hit the FAQ just so I can have the opportunity to say "FIRST"! That, and to be able to drink the tears of sorrow from those who are wrong.

I honestly don't know what you mean by your post.

@Wraithstrike: I think that is an excellent question and I would definitely like a clarification of some kind.
I suspect that the answer will be that any ring that specifically mention that it is activated by mental command (which to my knowledge is none of the pregenerated ones) is activated as such, while the others (all of them) are activated using command word.

Lifat the rings are either command word activated or always on. Any exception to that is written into the ring's description. I am asking for an FAQ because of a debate in another thread.

Not one ring in the CRB uses the term "command word" in its description because it is always the default method. Items such as the ring of protection which don't say anything about activating special powers are always on.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I looked at the rings in the PRD

Almost none of them specify the activation method, but some do call out a standard action

Example of a ring that functions continuously: Ring of Protection +N, Ring of Jumping

Example of a ring that does not require activation but functions only when necessary: Ring of Feather Fall

Example of a ring that requires a standard action, but does not specify that a command word is involved ('simply' implies that a command word is not involved): Ring of Arcane Signets


SlimGauge wrote:

I looked at the rings in the PRD

Almost none of them specify the activation method, but some do call out a standard action

Example of a ring that functions continuously: Ring of Protection +N, Ring of Jumping

Example of a ring that does not require activation but functions only when necessary: Ring of Feather Fall

Example of a ring that requires a standard action, but does not specify that a command word is involved ('simply' implies that a command word is not involved): Ring of Arcane Signets

The rings will not call out standard action or command words normally.

If the ring requires activation then the command word is the default, and they take standard actions.

The ring of arcane signets falls under unusual activation because it says "The wearer can, as a standard action, embed this image on any object (as if using arcane mark) simply by pressing the ring against it."

It's magic is embedding the image by pressing it against something. Stating it is standard action is letting the player know it what action must be used to make it work.


wraithstrike wrote:
Lifat wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
It's questions like these that turn members of the PDT into alcoholics. Though, I did hit the FAQ just so I can have the opportunity to say "FIRST"! That, and to be able to drink the tears of sorrow from those who are wrong.

I honestly don't know what you mean by your post.

@Wraithstrike: I think that is an excellent question and I would definitely like a clarification of some kind.
I suspect that the answer will be that any ring that specifically mention that it is activated by mental command (which to my knowledge is none of the pregenerated ones) is activated as such, while the others (all of them) are activated using command word.

Lifat the rings are either command word activated or always on. Any exception to that is written into the ring's description. I am asking for an FAQ because of a debate in another thread.

Not one ring in the CRB uses the term "command word" in its description because it is always the default method. Items such as the ring of protection which don't say anything about activating special powers are always on.

The "I honestly don't know what you mean by your post" was directed at hangarfly because I didn't understand him (she?).

The rest of my post was me saying that I thought your specific post had merrit, and then it was about what I would guess the devs would answer.
And I understand that the rings don't call out command word specifically (because as you say, they don't need to), but what I meant was that even though I do believe that you could make a ring with mental command I haven't seen it done yet.


It's really going to vary depending on the nature of the ring. Obviously, you aren't always invisible when you're wearing a Ring of Invisibility. You're going to need to do something to activate/deactivate the ring, and a command word seems the easiest way to do this. I would say that, just like activating a magic item, speaking this command word is a Standard Action.

Conversely, a Ring of Regeneration is just always working. It's activated by wearing it.

Other things require specific things to be done: a Ring of Three Wishes requires you to speak your desires, as per the Wish spell, and one of the Wish spells stored in the ring then activates.

A Ring of Djinn Summoning requires you to do something to summon the djinn.

A Ring of Fire Resistance is just always active.

In short, there's no "one rule to rule them all" when it comes to magic rings. Common sense should rule on this.


There are some rings that can be activated as immediate actions. Do those require Command Words, which are standard actions, or something else?

I would say the Ring of 3 Wishes also requires a command word, to avoid the "accidentally saying 'I wish'" trope. Unless you want to screw your players over with that, I suppose.

Sovereign Court

The combat section mentions that command word activation is standard unless otherwise noted. So it's possible to have command as a free action perhaps. The fun thing would be to find examples. None of the core rings specifically mention mental activation but we have a blanket rule that wearable use activated are usually activated mentally.

Yep. It's a funny one. Ring section further complicates by saying the default is command word.

I would thus make them all mental activation unless command is specified. But I'm a softer GM :)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

The combat section mentions that command word activation is standard unless otherwise noted. So it's possible to have command as a free action perhaps. The fun thing would be to find examples. None of the core rings specifically mention mental activation but we have a blanket rule that wearable use activated are usually activated mentally.

Yep. It's a funny one. Ring section further complicates by saying the default is command word.

I would thus make them all mental activation unless command is specified. But I'm a softer GM :)

The ring entry is the more specific entry. So it overrides the otherwise general presumption. The ring section doesn't further complicate things; it provides a more specific rule for a more specific situation.

Sovereign Court

I don't think that section of the rules has ever been addressed though: why would they ever write that use activated items that require activation are usually activated mentally?


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I don't think that section of the rules has ever been addressed though: why would they ever write that use activated items that require activation are usually activated mentally?

Applies to items other than rings, which don't default to command words?

To go back to the previous discussion, is there any similar evidence that the Hat of Disguise or the Boots of Levitation use command words?

It all seems to fall in the same category. Everything, including worn items that needs to be activated, is activated by command word by default.

But under use activated, anything worn that needs activation is activated by mentally willing it by default.

I hesitate to suggest it's just a matter of which cost category the items were designed under, since so many items break the design guidelines that you can't really tell without an explicit note.
But that's my best guess: If it's a command word item, it defaults to command word.
If it's a Use-Activated item it defaults to mentally, if it needs to be commanded at all.
How you tell which are which in cases that don't follow the cost guidelines, I have no idea.

Design:

Personally, I think the "Use Activated, needs mental activation" category is unneeded. Use-Activated should be just for those items that you activate by actually doing something with. That doesn't include putting them on, that's continuous.
If you need to command a thing to activate, then it's command word.
(Maybe explicitly allow a price bump for mental command?)

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
How you tell which are which in cases that don't follow the cost guidelines, I have no idea.

You make a good point: reverse engineering the cost seems to be the only way to find out is something is use activated vs. command word activated. Doing so for ring of invisibility yields something closer to use activated category, while doing so for ring of chameleon power yields command word category type of pricing.

Therefore,

ring of invisibility --> use activated, mental
ring of chameleon power --> command word (with both free action and standard action powers requiring a different command word)

I know you said "applies to items other than rings" but use activated includes rings as an example..

Also, carpet of flying: I calculate this to 90000 with command word activation category... yet we have three versions all costing cheaper... ?


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
How you tell which are which in cases that don't follow the cost guidelines, I have no idea.

You make a good point: reverse engineering the cost seems to be the only way to find out is something is use activated vs. command word activated. Doing so for ring of invisibility yields something closer to use activated category, while doing so for ring of chameleon power yields command word category type of pricing.

Therefore,

ring of invisibility --> use activated, mental
ring of chameleon power --> command word (with both free action and standard action powers requiring a different command word)

I know you said "applies to items other than rings" but use activated includes rings as an example..

Also, carpet of flying: I calculate this to 90000 with command word activation category... yet we have three versions all costing cheaper... ?

As I said, you really can't do it because so many cases don't follow the cost guidelines.

In the ring's case, we've been explicitly told what the calculated price was and that it was bumped up, so you can't use the final price as a guide. The calculated price was based on command word.


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Use Activated I think in most contexts of worn items is simply a continuously functioning item. Use Activated (Mental) probably really is a rare corner case.

Ultimately, I think what determines whether a thing is "use activated" or "command word" is determined by how much it makes sense for the item to fall into one category or the other, based upon its function and the descriptions in its entry.

The Ring of Invisibility requires activation. It does not work by simply putting it on (which is what the language in Use Activated is referring to). A Ring of Protection is Use Activated because it works as soon as you putting it on, providing a constant bonus. A Ring of Invisibility does not, which we know because the entry explicitly states it must be activated. Certainly, this could fall under the rare Use Activated (Mental) category. Thematically it makes sense and I honestly wouldn't really have a problem with it being Use Activated (Mental).

The problem, however, is that the specific entry for Rings pretty explicitly states that Rings are activated in one of two ways: 1. Command Word. 2. Continuous functioning by wearing. Only in the rare case where we are explicitly told how the ring functions differently is it activated in some other way. The Ring of Invisibility states it must be activated, so we know they're not talking about continuous functioning. And it does not explicitly tell us the method of activation. Thus, like it or not, the Ring of Invisibility defaults to being a command word item. Whether you think that should be errataed to something else is a different discussion entirely.

Boots of Levitation say "on command". It makes the most sense to assume that these are command word items.

For reasons similar to the Ring of Invisibility, I could also argue that the Hat of Disguise is perhaps a command word item, as well. Again, it does not appear to be the sort of thing (to me, anyway) that automatically applies its bonus when you put it on. It certainly makes sense that a character might want to wear his or her hat without necessarily being disguised all the time. Otherwise, simply donning the cap would be a huge indicator of intent. I could see this one easily being Use Activated (Mental), though. And the default presumption, it can be argued, is flipped for wondrous items as opposed to rings (where command word will be indicated in its entry if that is the intent - as it appears to be with the Boots of Levitation). My position at this point then is that the Hat of Disguise is Use Activated (Mental).

Most of the time it should probably be obvious or inconsequential what type of activation is required for a magic item. There are a few of these corner cases though where a person might have to ponder a bit.


fretgod99 wrote:

Use Activated I think in most contexts of worn items is simply a continuously functioning item. Use Activated (Mental) probably really is a rare corner case.

Ultimately, I think what determines whether a thing is "use activated" or "command word" is determined by how much it makes sense for the item to fall into one category or the other, based upon its function and the descriptions in its entry.

The Ring of Invisibility requires activation. It does not work by simply putting it on (which is what the language in Use Activated is referring to). A Ring of Protection is Use Activated because it works as soon as you putting it on, providing a constant bonus. A Ring of Invisibility does not, which we know because the entry explicitly states it must be activated. Certainly, this could fall under the rare Use Activated (Mental) category. Thematically it makes sense and I honestly wouldn't really have a problem with it being Use Activated (Mental).

The problem, however, is that the specific entry for Rings pretty explicitly states that Rings are activated in one of two ways: 1. Command Word. 2. Continuous functioning by wearing. Only in the rare case where we are explicitly told how the ring functions differently is it activated in some other way. The Ring of Invisibility states it must be activated, so we know they're not talking about continuous functioning. And it does not explicitly tell us the method of activation. Thus, like it or not, the Ring of Invisibility defaults to being a command word item. Whether you think that should be errataed to something else is a different discussion entirely.

Boots of Levitation say "on command". It makes the most sense to assume that these are command word items.

For reasons similar to the Ring of Invisibility, I could also argue that the Hat of Disguise is perhaps a command word item, as well. Again, it does not appear to be the sort of thing (to me, anyway) that automatically applies its bonus when you put it on. It certainly makes sense that a character might...

According to the PRD, wondrous items also default to command words if they need activation.

The language is essentially the same as for rings.

I thought the assumption might be flipped, but I don't see any evidence for it.

The hat also follows the pricing for command word.

Sovereign Court

Thank you, fretgod99! very concise and informative.

Let's forget ring of invisibility as it stands: if one would like to craft the same ring with use activated / continuous use, with mental activation - would the price simply jump to 24K? (I ask for home campaign purposes, as I am aware the ring "default to command word" will probably stand in the way to mental activation for PFS play... unless Paizo devs make a bold declaration of intent that the ring is meant for stealth...)

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:

According to the PRD, wondrous items also default to command words if they need activation.

The language is essentially the same as for rings.
I thought the assumption might be flipped, but I don't see any evidence for it.

The hat also follows the pricing for command word.

thejeff: look carefully under magic item section, then click on wondrous item (instead of going straight to wondrous item from a google search)

You then get this:

Wondrous Items
This is a catch all category for anything that doesn't fall into the other groups. Anyone can use a wondrous item (unless specified otherwise in the description).

Physical Description: Varies.

Activation: Usually use-activated or command word, but details vary from item to item.

Special Qualities: Roll d%. A 01 result indicates the wondrous item is intelligent, 02–31 indicates that something (a design, inscription, or the like) provides a clue to its function, and 32–100 indicates no special qualities. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes (see Intelligent Items).

Wondrous items with charges can never be intelligent.

Sovereign Court

oh oh oh! can an intelligent ring of invisibility self-activate as a mental act of will, or does it have to shout out it's becoming invisible?


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:

According to the PRD, wondrous items also default to command words if they need activation.

The language is essentially the same as for rings.
I thought the assumption might be flipped, but I don't see any evidence for it.

The hat also follows the pricing for command word.

thejeff: look carefully under magic item section, then click on wondrous item (instead of going straight to wondrous item from a google search)

You then get this:

Wondrous Items
This is a catch all category for anything that doesn't fall into the other groups. Anyone can use a wondrous item (unless specified otherwise in the description).

Physical Description: Varies.

Activation: Usually use-activated or command word, but details vary from item to item.

Special Qualities: Roll d%. A 01 result indicates the wondrous item is intelligent, 02–31 indicates that something (a design, inscription, or the like) provides a clue to its function, and 32–100 indicates no special qualities. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes (see Intelligent Items).

Wondrous items with charges can never be intelligent.

Yeah, I think found that the first time. It doesn't really change anything though:

"Usually use-activated or command word" is the key point there.
Anything else would need to be specified.

Sovereign Court

from PRD:

"Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner's turn in the initiative order."

and

"Activating a power or concentrating on an active one is a standard action the item takes. The caster level for these effects is equal to the item's caster level. Save DCs are based off the item's highest mental ability score."

Please note that not all magical items can talk, thus this would imply an intelligent magic ring can activate itself mentally...

Edit: I'm totally crafting a 10800 magic ring of invisibility WITH intelligence and a few side powers now... I'll try to fit it all under 20K! LOL

Initiative:
Player A - 22
Intelligent Ring - 18
Bad Guy X - 12
Player B - irrelevant

Player A: attacks while invisible, applies sneak damage, reappears, then winks out again
Bad Guy X: oh s%$@
Player B: WTF? How did he turn invisible??? he didn't use a command word! it wasn't even his turn!!! LOL

Sovereign Court

this also brings a new question: how can an oracle with the tongues curse activate a command word item in combat?

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:


"Usually use-activated or command word" is the key point there.
Anything else would need to be specified.

yeah but it at least settles the question for wondrous items that are not specified: for those you pick use-activated or command word, as you see fit.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Thank you, fretgod99! very concise and informative.

Let's forget ring of invisibility as it stands: if one would like to craft the same ring with use activated / continuous use, with mental activation - would the price simply jump to 24K? (I ask for home campaign purposes, as I am aware the ring "default to command word" will probably stand in the way to mental activation for PFS play... unless Paizo devs make a bold declaration of intent that the ring is meant for stealth...)

For home campaign purposes, price it as you see fit. I would jump to 24K as you suggest. I think, as I said more than once on the other thread, that unlimited use command word buff items are very close in value to continuous items and should be priced roughly the same.

James Risner suggested bumping it by 60% to keep it in line with bump the Ring already has.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

from PRD:

"Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner's turn in the initiative order."

and

"Activating a power or concentrating on an active one is a standard action the item takes. The caster level for these effects is equal to the item's caster level. Save DCs are based off the item's highest mental ability score."

Please note that not all magical items can talk, thus this would imply an intelligent magic ring can activate itself mentally...

Edit: I'm totally crafting a 10800 magic ring of invisibility WITH intelligence and a few side powers now... I'll try to fit it all under 20K! LOL

By the guidelines, you should base the cost on the current price of the ring, not the calculated value. 20,000gp + whatever for Intelligence and side powers.

Sovereign Court

which guidelines? don't be a bummer man! LOL

Edit: I'll call it - ring of sudden disappearance... it's a custom item... it will use vanish at caster level 1 instead... base price: 1800 :)

UNLIMITED USE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)


The language off of Paizo's site for Wondrous items is:

Wondrous Items wrote:
Activation: Usually use-activated or command word, but details vary from item to item.

The language I'm keying on in the general sections is bolded:

Magic Items wrote:

Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

Obviously, I'm open to interpretations on this one. But I take that to mean that Wondrous Items are telling us activation is one of the two, but there's no general guideline really because it's a catch-all category for magic items that don't fit elsewhere. So analyze the item and check out the general guidelines which it could be argued (maybe) to suggest Use Activated (Mental).

To be fair though, Command Word also has a blanket statement that could apply:

Magic Items wrote:
If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it.

I did make a post in the other thread that is relevant, but it got deleted. The unclear thing here is whether "nature of the item" means "What general category it fits into (e.g., Ring, Wand, etc.)" or "What the specific function of this particular item is (e.g., turn the wearer invisible, allow the bearer to cast X spell, etc.)". I could see that going either way, to be honest.

In the end you're probably right; if it follows the pricing guidelines for command word, I'd probably go with that. As I mentioned above, most of the time I do think it should be pretty obvious. After all, most wondrous items that are command word items in the CRB do a pretty good job of indicating that ("On command", "When the command word is spoken", etc.). They also do a good job of showing odd activation ("Playing this harp", etc.) or the item is obviously continuous. The cases where it's not clear I think are relatively limited, though it's frustrating when it isn't. And the cases where it really matters if it's one or the other are fewer still. ultimately, I think it's safe to assume that Use Activated (Mental) is virtually never the method unless it explicitly states it or the default for that type is undoubtedly not Command Word, and simply wearing the item doesn't make a sensible case for activating it. Obviously, that's not going to solve everything, though. There's always going to be an item or two that don't fit, I think.

*shrug*


thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Thank you, fretgod99! very concise and informative.

Let's forget ring of invisibility as it stands: if one would like to craft the same ring with use activated / continuous use, with mental activation - would the price simply jump to 24K? (I ask for home campaign purposes, as I am aware the ring "default to command word" will probably stand in the way to mental activation for PFS play... unless Paizo devs make a bold declaration of intent that the ring is meant for stealth...)

For home campaign purposes, price it as you see fit. I would jump to 24K as you suggest. I think, as I said more than once on the other thread, that unlimited use command word buff items are very close in value to continuous items and should be priced roughly the same.

James Risner suggested bumping it by 60% to keep it in line with bump the Ring already has.

I wouldn't jump up that much, but I might set it in the 28-32K range. A bit more than the continuous pricing, but not nearly the same increase as the standard ring because, as you've noted, diminishing returns and all that.


thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

from PRD:

"Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner's turn in the initiative order."

and

"Activating a power or concentrating on an active one is a standard action the item takes. The caster level for these effects is equal to the item's caster level. Save DCs are based off the item's highest mental ability score."

Please note that not all magical items can talk, thus this would imply an intelligent magic ring can activate itself mentally...

Edit: I'm totally crafting a 10800 magic ring of invisibility WITH intelligence and a few side powers now... I'll try to fit it all under 20K! LOL

By the guidelines, you should base the cost on the current price of the ring, not the calculated value. 20,000gp + whatever for Intelligence and side powers.

This. If there's an item that isn't priced pursuant to the guidelines, you can't circumvent the increased value by creating essentially the same item, but pricing it according to guidelines.

Intelligent items can be and are quite interesting. But that's totally a Talk to Your GM Scenario! ;)

EDIT: Also, holy posting frenzy, Batman! A bunch of posts popped when when I was writing that last one.

Sovereign Court

custom item
ring of sudden disappearance, vanish at caster level 1
yay? :)


fretgod99 wrote:

The language off of Paizo's site for Wondrous items is:

Wondrous Items wrote:
Activation: Usually use-activated or command word, but details vary from item to item.

The language I'm keying on in the general sections is bolded:

Magic Items wrote:

Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

Obviously, I'm open to interpretations on this one. But I take that to mean that Wondrous Items are telling us activation is one of the two, but there's no general guideline really because it's a catch-all category for magic items that don't fit elsewhere. So analyze the item and check out the general guidelines which it could be argued (maybe) to suggest Use Activated (Mental).

That's the same Use-Activated language everyone was using to suggest the ring could be by mental command. The quote even mentions "wear a ring".

And then it was claimed that the specific language for Rings overrode it, as the "Usually use-activated or command word" does for Wondrous Items.
I don't see the difference.

I think Use-Activated is almost always more the actually using an item version and almost never the mental command version. Possibly those whose activation is specified as not being compatible with the usual command word, by being free or immediate actions, for example.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

custom item

ring of sudden disappearance, vanish at caster level 1
yay? :)

You might want to go with Caster Level 2. Otherwise the duration expires at the beginning of your turn and you become visible. The intelligent ring can make you vanish again that turn, but you will be flashing in and out.

That said, I'd slap it down as a GM. I might allow the Caster level 1 version, with a price bump, but if you want permanent invisibility, there's an item for that.

Sovereign Court

excellent... caster level 2 makes sense... but what if one makes it continuous use? I'll specify mental activation AND continuous use just for s#!%s and giggles...

Ring of Occasional Appearance: unless the wearer notifies the ring that he wishes to be visible, the wearer of this ring is continually under a vanish effect, as per the spell; upon performing an hostile act he becomes visible as per the spell, but on the ring's turn or his turn, the vanish effect can be reactivated mentally as a standard action

base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

excellent... caster level 2 makes sense... but what if one makes it continuous use? I'll specify mental activation AND continuous use just for s~%%s and giggles...

Ring of Occasional Appearance: unless the wearer notifies the ring that he wishes to be visible, the wearer of this ring is continually under a vanish effect, as per the spell; upon performing an hostile act he becomes visible as per the spell, but on the ring's turn or his turn, the vanish effect can be reactivated mentally as a standard action

base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000

Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.

And that version definitely gets slapped down. Even without the Intelligence. Better than Invisibility Ring and cheaper? No.

I also would need to look closer at the Intelligence rules. It's not clear how they interact with existing item abilities.


thejeff wrote:

That's the same Use-Activated language everyone was using to suggest the ring could be by mental command. The quote even mentions "wear a ring".

And then it was claimed that the specific language for Rings overrode it, as the "Usually use-activated or command word" does for Wondrous Items.
I don't see the difference.
I think Use-Activated is almost always more the actually using an item version and almost never the mental command version. Possibly those whose activation is specified as not being compatible with the usual command word, by being free or immediate actions, for example.

The Ring language specifically overrides the general rules language because it says Rings function on command or are continuous. Continuous is use activated, but not Use Activated (Mental).

Wondrous Items simply say, they're either use activated or command. Which, to be honest, doesn't actually tell us anything because all magic items are either use activated or command, unless we're specifically told otherwise. The difference is that "Use Activated" encompasses "Use Activated (Mental)" where "Continuous" does not. Wondrous Items leaves the door open, unlike Rings.

As for the wearing a Ring bit, I believe the intent there is to reference the acting of putting on the ring (and specifically with respect to a continuous ring). In regards to activation, "wear" only really makes sense if it means to put it on. You've obviously got to be wearing it for it function. But if a ring doesn't require command or mental activation, the thing that provides the benefit to the wearer is the act of putting the ring on one's finger. Obviously, this feels a bit nuanced, but I'm taking my cue from "don a hat". "Wear" could mean "put on" or it could mean "having the item on one's body" (i.e., it previous was put on and hasn't been taken off). The general connotation (and denotation) of "don" though is to put on. All the rest of the methods mentioned in that line are active verbs. So I'm assuming a similar reading for "wear a ring". Could be a stretch. *shrug*

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.

so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

PS: I joke about the one ring, because I definitely think the one ring uses Ethereal Jaunt instead of Invisibility! :)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.
so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

If you're the GM, just house rule the Ring of Invisibility works the way you want it too and costs however much you want.

Hacks around the magic item rules to avoid house ruling things aren't a good idea.

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.
so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

If you're the GM, just house rule the Ring of Invisibility works the way you want it too and costs however much you want.

Hacks around the magic item rules to avoid house ruling things aren't a good idea.

I disagree. Those with the magic item crafting feats need consistency of costing application throughout various magic items. Not random unexplained doubling of prices because "they said so"


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.
so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

If you're the GM, just house rule the Ring of Invisibility works the way you want it too and costs however much you want.

Hacks around the magic item rules to avoid house ruling things aren't a good idea.

I disagree. Those with the magic item crafting feats need consistency of costing application throughout various magic items. Not random unexplained doubling of prices because "they said so"

No they don't. They have existing price lists and can generally work from those with variations. Getting essentially the same item for much cheaper because you thought of a clever way to combine abilities is not a good plan. That way lies Use-Activated True Strike. +20 whenever I swing my sword. For 2000gp.

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Considering how hard the disputes have been i think this is complicated enough to be worth a faq. No player should need a PHD on rules mastery to be able to understand how his/her magic ring works


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.
so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

If you're the GM, just house rule the Ring of Invisibility works the way you want it too and costs however much you want.

Hacks around the magic item rules to avoid house ruling things aren't a good idea.

I disagree. Those with the magic item crafting feats need consistency of costing application throughout various magic items. Not random unexplained doubling of prices because "they said so"

The magic item creation section directly says that not all magic items power will conform to the price so a GM should feel free to ad-hoc the price. It is really more of an art, than a science.


wraithstrike wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.
so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

If you're the GM, just house rule the Ring of Invisibility works the way you want it too and costs however much you want.

Hacks around the magic item rules to avoid house ruling things aren't a good idea.

I disagree. Those with the magic item crafting feats need consistency of costing application throughout various magic items. Not random unexplained doubling of prices because "they said so"
The magic item creation section directly says that not all magic items power will conform to the price so a GM should feel free to ad-hoc the price. It is really more of an art, than a science.
To be specific
Quote:

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item, the GM should require using the price of the item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from the "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" lines of Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

Officially, you compare to existing similar items and only if that doesn't work, use the formulas.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.

so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

PS: I joke about the one ring, because I definitely think the one ring uses Ethereal Jaunt instead of Invisibility! :)

It's at least Greater Invisibility, but continuous, not command. You're looking at a base price of 224,000. And it should probably be upped from there. A reasonable price might be in the range of 250-300K, and that's just for the invisibility power. We're already in "probably should make it an artifact" territory. Also, make it intelligent with a whopping ego score.

And if you want Ethereal Jaunt, its base price for a continuous item is 728,000. So yeah, artifact.

I know you were joking, but I thought I'd put some numbers to it (mainly because I was curious what a Greater Invisibility Ring would look like). Command Word base price is like 50,400. So maybe 80-90K.

*shrug*

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.
so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

If you're the GM, just house rule the Ring of Invisibility works the way you want it too and costs however much you want.

Hacks around the magic item rules to avoid house ruling things aren't a good idea.

I disagree. Those with the magic item crafting feats need consistency of costing application throughout various magic items. Not random unexplained doubling of prices because "they said so"
No they don't. They have existing price lists and can generally work from those with variations. Getting essentially the same item for much cheaper because you thought of a clever way to combine abilities is not a good plan. That way lies Use-Activated True Strike. +20 whenever I swing my sword. For 2000gp.

you can't do that: true strike has a target of "you"

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
base cost before intelligence thingies: SL 1 x CL 1 x 2000 = 2000
Don't forget the duration cost multiplier for continuous: x4 for round/level abilities.
so 8000? I could live with that. Thank you kind Sir! (I'm the DM right now, I'll do the intelligence math later and report... I'll make two versions: the lesser and the greater, sauron-like version! :) )

If you're the GM, just house rule the Ring of Invisibility works the way you want it too and costs however much you want.

Hacks around the magic item rules to avoid house ruling things aren't a good idea.

I disagree. Those with the magic item crafting feats need consistency of costing application throughout various magic items. Not random unexplained doubling of prices because "they said so"
The magic item creation section directly says that not all magic items power will conform to the price so a GM should feel free to ad-hoc the price. It is really more of an art, than a science.

I agree. Again, my obstinate refusal of the 20K price is mainly due to the fact that NO ONE EVER PURCHASE THIS RING! I want to see it in use! and I think the only way I'll ever see that, with my players, is to design another item to provide a similar function at a fraction of the price (or should I say, one that is priced in accordance to the costing guidelines)

Similarly, I'm a bit guarded about making flying carpets available... not a module breaker, but very cheap (perhaps discounted to match pricing with lower level fly spell? who knows)

Sovereign Court

fretgod99 wrote:
And if you want Ethereal Jaunt, its base price for a continuous item is 728,000. So yeah, artifact.

Sounds appropriate for the one ring... add a few thous worth of intelligence features, remove a few thous worth due to the horrible drawback of becoming a Gollum from repeated use (i.e. if you're not evil aligned, Cha drain unless you fail a daily Fort save even when not activating it; Cha drain if you fail a Fort save every time you activate it; when Cha reaches 0 you transform into a ghoul / gain somekind of ghoul template but you keep your class levels?)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Some might feel becoming a Gollum is a boon. Why reduce the cost? Long life and more!

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