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Really? I'm confused there, why doesn't a polymorph spell change your type?
Forgive my misunderstanding, but from what I read in the polymorph section, you assume the form, and some abilities, but also that you change into a creature of X type ("When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body."). I always assumed you inherited the type, but without the character rebuilding (like the FAQ on awaken). Did I miss something there? Perhaps I've been DMing this wrong .
@Calth:
You mention the very thing he seemed to argue against. He claims, and I'm with him on this, that you can cast a polymorph spell on yourself, and then when the casting is complete decide which effect to keep. It would be similar to casting fear on a fear immune creature, the spell succeeds, and then the player finds out that it had no effect. The question then would be what happens to a spell that you no longer qualify for (kinda, paragon surge has wording which seems to suggest that you would stay a half elf).
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You absolutely never change type.
I would be more sated if there was a little explanation behind that O.o, not that I'm going to be hard to convince, but I try to hold to RAW or clear RAI so I can give my players a little more than a "it's this way in this world!"
I used magic missle in a 3.5 game recently. My DM thought that DR applied to force effect damage, but after doing research (such as looking at the force range weapon enchantment)we cameto conclude that force effects bypass DR. I was glad that my DM was willing to change, I like to offer my players the same courtesy.
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You are only affected how the individual spell says you are or that generally apply due to the polymorph text in the magic chapter. Type is never mentioned in either place. Form is not type. Form is your physical appearance, number of limbs, and so on. If form were type then that would need mentioned as a creature's type and subtype have wide ranging affects on the creature.
I understand that form isn't a type, but I would assume that "changing into a creature of X type" literally meant you became a creature of X type. Now, the other parts of the polymorph section limit the exact changes, but it doesn't limit type change.
EDIT: it doesn't -mention- any type change restrictions.
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Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
Note, there is no mention of type change.
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Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
The bolded part is the source of my confusion. How do you change into a creature of X type without changing your type?
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If what you are is saying is true, then the sentence should read:
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes your form into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body."
I'm going to search around to see what others have said, and check the individual polymorph spells for any traces of RAI.
I agree, you dont change type. Just let Your player use Paragon surge as whatever creature he is, if you want.
It would be more than a little odd if you only gained the type of a limited number of forms and not all of them.
That specific sentence is about when you change into a creature of that type certain things happen, as opposed to if you change into a humanoid or outsider type for example. It does not indicate that you gain that type.
It would have to say something like "when you change into a creature of [x] type you gain that creatures type" to have the effect you are indicating.
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Apon further examination, it's still... questionable?
From a balance perspective, not changing type is spot on.
From a RAW look, I'm still iffy.
@BBT
I'm currently experiencing it. Lots of book-keeping, thats for sure.
@Dragonhunterq The sentence I bolded serves, in my mind, as a "yes, your type changes" example, and as an example, is not limited to only those types. It wouldn't need to say what's included in your quotes, it already seem to imply that your type does change (Hence the question that I presented that seemed to be ignored, "How do you change into a creature of X type without changing to X type?"). It seems to me, by a standard english intrepetation, that your type changes.
@Uwotm8 I don't believe the change would be that drastic. There are several examples of type changes in pathfinder that don't actually change skills per level, BaB, etc.. (such as awaken, which an FAQ states "Only the animal's type changes to "magical beast"--it doesn't gain all the mathematical benefits for this type change (think of it as a "quick rules" version of adding a template to a creature))"
@Everyone
From searching around, and reading a lot of polymorph school spells, I have found the following:
Baleful Polymorph has an oddity, which states "If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save." Though, changing something to an aquatic animal wouldn't change it's type, and therefore said animal is not in any danger of not being in water. The example is made with the assumption that type changes.
Undead Anatomy: You gain certain characteristics of being undead, but not all, such as not being a proper undead target for spells. Though this could be a specific rule trumping general.
The spells in general: Form of the Dragon has odd wording compared to the others ("you become"), but other than that, every polymorph spell I've read goes through the specific abilities you gain, as per instructions from the polymorph rules. No leaning either way from reading those.
On the forums: There's not really been any solid RAW or RAI that type doesn't change, though it is the general consensus.
Finally: In my games, I'll rule type doesn't change. It's probably intended to be that way. But there's certainly some room for confusion on the matter, as I hope some people can see.
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Baleful Polymorph has an oddity, which states "If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save." Though, changing something to an aquatic animal wouldn't change it's type, and therefore said animal is not in any danger of not being in water. The example is made with the assumption that type changes.
If you get changed to a fish you acquire the Amphibious special quality:
Amphibious (Ex) Creatures with this special quality have the aquatic subtype, but they can survive indefinitely on land.
so you can breathe air forever.
But try moving around on land as a fish. Dying of starvation is still dying.|
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Baleful Polymorph has an oddity, which states "If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save." Though, changing something to an aquatic animal wouldn't change it's type, and therefore said animal is not in any danger of not being in water. The example is made with the assumption that type changes.If you get changed to a fish you acquire the Amphibious special quality:
Amphibious (Ex) Creatures with this special quality have the aquatic subtype, but they can survive indefinitely on land.so you can breathe air forever.
But try moving around on land as a fish. Dying of starvation is still dying.
... What? Now that sure isn't anywhere. Since when do you acquire the amphibious quality when the base creature doesn't have it?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You absolutely never change type."it's this way in this world!"
I used magic missle in a 3.5 game recently. My DM thought that DR applied to force effect damage
No where in the Polymorph section does it say it changes type. It explicitly doesn't change type, because that opens loop holes and grants significantly more power for some things than for other things.
DR only applies to damage tagged with DR types. Like bludgeoning damage in spells. If it isn't a DR type it isn't applied to DR.
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Kinda odd quoting there James... You missed the entire reason why I said what I said :P
It never explicitly says it changes type, but at the bolded area it seemed to imply that the target does change type. Hence the confusion on my part.
However, it seems that the community is overwhelmingly in favor of no type changes. So that'll be the way I rule.
But, there is still some ambiguity on both the RAI and RAW when considering only pathfinder. First, you change into a creature of that type, with limitations. Second, Baleful Polymorph's example seems to rely on the idea that a type change does in fact occur.
Now, IF we are allowed to compare to dnd 3.5 (which I've seen many posters get mad at, since this is pathfinder, and should be completely stand alone from 3.5) then we can see that the developers tried to remove type changing, but didn't get every single reference or hint to it. With that mind, RAI would be clear to point towards no type changing. But once again, some poster get mad when we use 3.5 as a resource to help define RAW or RAI.
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... What? Now that sure isn't anywhere. Since when do you acquire the amphibious quality when the base creature doesn't have it?Baleful Polymorph has an oddity, which states "If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save." Though, changing something to an aquatic animal wouldn't change it's type, and therefore said animal is not in any danger of not being in water. The example is made with the assumption that type changes.If you get changed to a fish you acquire the Amphibious special quality:
Amphibious (Ex) Creatures with this special quality have the aquatic subtype, but they can survive indefinitely on land.so you can breathe air forever.
But try moving around on land as a fish. Dying of starvation is still dying.
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.
It don't say anywhere that you lose the ability to breathe air.
I am fairly sure to have read that you function as if you had the amphibious ability, but until I found where I have read that, we can assume that referring it is a brain fart.
Here it is, it is true only for some polymorph spell:
Monstrous Physique
...If the form you assume has the aquatic subtype, you gain the aquatic and amphibious subtypes.