http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#take-5-foot-step
So, I've been arguing with someone for awhile now on this topic, and some pretty crazy and ridiculous things have come up depending on how one reads the rules. I would like others to help me figure out as best as possible when you can use a 5ft step, and most specifically, can you initiate a standard action (attack), and during it take a 5ft step, and then finish your action (attack)?
Someone might ask why does this matter, and I say a lot of unusual situations can come up, and you can answer other people's tactics possibly with it as well. I won't go into the crazy world, but here is a relevant use of performing such a thing:
Someone readies an action for when you attack, that they'll attack, and then they'll use their unused 5ft to get out of a threatened square (this is a legal maneuver, and can be found in the readied action rules) so you'll wiff your action.
Wouldn't it be great to DURING your standard action to move forward with your unused 5ft that is available in order to not waste your attack? Sounds good to me, but is it legal?
A big part of this is that it's argued the 5ft step rules seem to be written as a general explanation of whats possible, rather than literally allowing you to use one anytime in a round.
For clarification, can I initiate a standard action, and during it take a 5ft step, then resolve the standard action?
Since you can explicitly use a 5'step in the middle of a full attack full round action I cannot see why you could not do so with a standard action. On the other hand I cannot see where it would be needed with a standard action.
Full attack is between actually, and not during. The specific actions have their rules on the matter, which is why I mention the argument that the 5ft rules are just general.
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Can I take a 5ft step whenever I make an immediate action?
Could I start a spell like burning hands, and begin to cast it away, then step, then fire? Does the fist square only provoke, or do all the squared provoke?
Same situation as above, but it's an acid splash. Do I take the casting provoke in the first square, and the ranged provoke in the second square, or do I provoke twice in each square?
Last I knew, you could only hold the charge on specific spells, and I think it's exclusive to only melee touch spells. I could be wrong, since I'm a human fighter and all.
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Yes, you can ready an action to move back right before they attack, but they don't "whiff"—they can just change their action accordingly. You can't move back "as" they attack to make them waste the strike on air—either you move before they swing or you move as they swing and hope they miss.
Yes, you can ready an action to move back right before they attack, but they don't "whiff"—they can just change their action accordingly. You can't move back "as" they attack to make them waste the strike on air—either you move before they swing or you move as they swing and hope they miss.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Here are some interesting things. Like I mentioned, the 5 ft step rules could be interpreted to be a general explanation of what is capable of the 5 ft step in order to define what it does, just like all the other actions.
This is in order of how things are listed in the combat section.
Standard action= Doesn't include any mention of doing a five foot step, and is the first action mentioned.
Move action= seems extremely redundant, but it mentions that you can take a 5 ft step before, during or after this action (given you don't take any movement, and all that other jazz). Strange to not include the redundant information in the standard action I think.
Full round= more of the redundant before, during, and after, but there is a caveat soon to come. One of these caveats is that not all full round actions allow you to take a 5 ft step.
Free action= no mention of it, but why not just speak whenever you want, and do a 5 ft step when it's not your turn?
Swift action= No mention here either...
Immediate action= No mention, but I know step up feat exists, a swashbuckler level 1 ability exist, but what about I figure out a way to get an immediate action to take my unused 5 ft step when it's not my turn?
Not an action= nothing mentioned, but let's say I have snap shot feat, can I 5 ft step when I make my attack of opportunity with an arrow that I'm knocking in my bow?
Restricted Activity= nothing mentioned...
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More interesting thoughts. If the entry for 5 foot step isn't a general explanation of what it's capable of, and is literally the rules, why can't I just 5 ft whenever I want? On my turn I believe I'll use some actions, or even after my turn because I figure I would have used actions that round. The rules say that I can before, during or after in the entire round. Seems if you have it, you can spend it?
Interesting about the Readied Action thing. That opens up many doors...
Yes, and people aren't aware of a lot of these options within the rules, and get very upset with what you can come up with.
If you can 5ft step during a standard action, the crazy train will open up I feel, and super head scratches will happen.
I would really like input on how people read the 5 ft step rules in terms of a general explanation how they work, and you go based on how the actions dictate them, or if the 5 ft step rules are exactly how they say they work, please.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
Not quite. Note the big line there:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You cannot attack someone outside your reach.
Yes, and since they're not, they waste their standard action because it's already spent. Understand?
Any insight on the meat and potatoes of the thread though?
kestral, there are plenty of threads about this tactic already. I would rather talk about 5 ft steps during a standard action.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.Not quite. Note the big line there:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.You cannot attack someone outside your reach.
If the attacking character hasn't taken their own 5' step, they can just follow the person who readied their action to step away.
If they have already moved or used their step, they will have to find some other way of making their intended attacks. Thrown weapons that are able to be drawn as free actions (like darts) are a good way to not end up with wasted attacks.
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Yes, and since they're not, they waste their standard action because it's already spent. Understand?
Again, note the "assuming he is capable of doing so" clause. Because of that, he is free to choose a different action. Otherwise, the text would say he loses his action.
Yes, and since they're not, they waste their standard action because it's already spent. Understand?Again, note the "assuming he is capable of doing so" clause. Because of that, he is free to choose a different action. Otherwise, the text would say he loses his action.
This.
Ready action is a powerfull option but it is reactive and easy to mess with.
@Kobold, it doesn't say you get to chose another option. The action was chosen, can't be preformed, and then spent. Attacks of Opporunity work in a similar way.
@Doomed Hero, I'm trying to get to the root of if a standard action can allow a 5 foot step to be done during it. In the situation, the other player goes right back into their standard action, and would have to preform their 5 foot step DURING.
So, immediate actions... can I take a 5ft step DURING THEM on other peoples turns?
@Kobold, it doesn't say you get to chose another option. The action was chosen, can't be preformed, and then spent. Attacks of Opporunity work in a similar way.
@Doomed Hero, I'm trying to get to the root of if a standard action can allow a 5 foot step to be done during it. In the situation, the other player goes right back into their standard action, and would have to preform their 5 foot step DURING.
So, immediate actions... can I take a 5ft step DURING THEM on other peoples turns?
It's a moot point. If the attacker isn't in range at the start of the turn then he cannot take a 5' step after moving to get back in range to attack.
If he is already in range he simply declares he is making a full attack, allowing him to 5' step before, during, or after any part of his full round attack.
If he doesn't end up 5' stepping he could then change his mind after making a single attack and convert his full round to a standard, with a move action remaining.
Technically there is still the case of using a move action for something else, then attacking and wondering if you get a 5' step or not, but really that is just nit picking the rules at that point. It's pretty clear IMO that a 5' step can be taken on your turn as PART OF another action. This is the same thing where many free actions and non-actions are done as part of another action (acrobatics/stealth while moving, nocking an arrow to use a bow, etc). But all still limited to only on your turn except where explicitly allowed outside of your turn.
Note that without an ability that says otherwise you can only take a 5' step on your turn. The rules don't explicitly call this out, but EVERYTHING else in the rules that can be done outside of your turn very explicitly is called out as being allowed outside of your turn. Note numerous faq's that change the errata of things like free actions to allow them outside of your turn in special cases - or change free actions to non-actions.
As to those arguing you can choose a different action after someone's readied action goes off: RAW, you can make a weak argument this is allowed, but RAI almost certainly you cannot. If you didn't start to take the triggering action in the first place how did the readied action go off? Can a caster choose not to cast a spell after being attacked from casting a spell, or better yet having it counterspelled and make only your opponent waste a spell to counter a spell you did not actually try to cast? The readied action trigger doesn't trigger till the other guy is committed to the action.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.Not quite. Note the big line there:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.You cannot attack someone outside your reach.
To elaborate further, Kobold Cleaver is saying that he doesn't continue to attack you because he can't anymore. Because he was never able to attack he never took the time to attack and thus never spent his standard. I know it sounds stupid but you only "do" something when you actually "do" it.
I can say I'm going to write or draw or do something, but until I have actually done that thing I haven't expended any time or effort on that action. The same goes for an attack. If you move on an attack your movement happens before I attack. There is no text saying that I am mid swing, or have already gone so far into my action that I can't change my course. I am literally unable to spend that action attacking you because you are too far away and there isn't anything that implies that I just sit there. I may have told the DM that I wanted to attack you, but since you moved out of the way and I can't anymore (since you moved right after I ended my little jaunt over to where you are standing) I choose to do something else with that allotted time.
All this being said, using a standard to avoid a melee attack from one individual seems like a waste of an action in just about any case other than when you're fighting a single enemy.
It says they can continue their actions, not "they must continue the same exact action no matter what"
IE, if you ready an action to disintegrate a bridge right before they step on it, they do not have to run into open air and fall to their deaths.
AoO do not work in a similar way. If I choose to attack you and for some reason you get an AoO and hit, I can change that attack to casting a heal spell or backing up if I feel I am to hurt to continue.
The only action actually stopped AND lost is casting a spell. This is because of the specific rules that state you can lose the spell. It is NOT a normal part of AoO. It is a part of getting hit while casting. It just so happens that it is often from AoOs.
Many people see it as Human Fighter does though.
As to moving in the middle of a Standard Action, is there any reason why one would want to that doesn't have the same outcome as taking the 5' step before or after?
In effect, I imagine it is legal. You can cast a spell, take a 5' step, deliver a touch/touch attack and then take your non-move move action. Delivering the touch/touch attack is still part of the Standard Action: Cast a spell, right?
I do not believe you can take a 5' step outside of your turn without feats/spells/traits/etc. such as step up.
Can a caster choose not to cast a spell after being attacked from casting a spell, or better yet having it counterspelled and make only your opponent waste a spell to counter a spell you did not actually try to cast? The readied action trigger doesn't trigger till the other guy is committed to the action.
This is a specific rule about spell casting being interrupted, not a general rule about readied actions or AoOs. I believe this is a misconception.
As to those arguing you can choose a different action after someone's readied action goes off: RAW, you can make a weak argument this is allowed, but RAI almost certainly you cannot. If you didn't start to take the triggering action in the first place how did the readied action go off? Can a caster choose not to cast a spell after being attacked from casting a spell, or better yet having it counterspelled and make only your opponent waste a spell to counter a spell you did not actually try to cast? The readied action trigger doesn't trigger till the other guy is committed to the action.
It isn't specified how you react to the trigger but it doesn't matter. A readied action happens before the triggering action happens. Full Stop. Thats the point of a readied action, its basically your character saying "if this thing is gonna happen, I want to do something before it happens" and the rules allow you to do this with 100% accuracy (which I agree, isn't the most realistic).
The other examples either aren't readied actions or have specific text preventing those problems. An attack during a spell casting happens after the spell is started, either because of an AAO or because the spell was a full round. In the AAO case, an AAO happens when "a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free." In that case casting causes you to let your guard down, so it has to already be in progress.
A counterspell can't be used as an example either because its wording specifically says that the act of counterspelling will "automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell" so a character can't choose to stop casting, because he already has, because his spell is ruined.
AoOs happen before the action that trigger them, not after the start but before the finish. If character 1 starts a trip and provokes an AoO from character 2, character 2 can then trip character 1. If successful, character 1 can still try to trip (at a -4), cast a spell, take out a potion, make an attack that isn't a trip or whatever. The AoO does not stop it.
If the AoO above was replaced with a readied action, it does not change the actions that character 1 has available to him. The only thing that changes his options is that he is now on the ground.
As stated above, the explicit wording of interrupting a spell is what stops the spell.
The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting
if it comes between the time you started and the time you
complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full
round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting
the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by
the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
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It says they can continue their actions, not "they must continue the same exact action no matter what"
Meaning only that they get to continue the rest of their turn. Not that they get to abort their current action and choose to do something else.
IE, if you ready an action to disintegrate a bridge right before they step on it, they do not have to run into open air and fall to their deaths.
Of course. They get to finish their movement, but how they choose to move in finishing that movement is up to them - jump across the gap, move and fall, stop, move somewhere else, all those are valid.
AoO do not work in a similar way. If I choose to attack you and for some reason you get an AoO and hit, I can change that attack to casting a heal spell or backing up if I feel I am to hurt to continue.
Wrong, once you've committed to an action that provokes an AoO (or triggers a readied action) you are committed to using up that action with the type of action that triggered. e.g, I cannot try and trip someone, provoke an AoO (they do whatever), then instead of me continuing to try and trip them cast a spell instead free of fear from AoO's.
The only action actually stopped AND lost is casting a spell.
This isn't really a specific overrides general, but rather a reminder that the caster may lose the spell due to failed concentration check. A character may lose an action if due to the readied action or AoO their planned action is no longer valid. But if it is valid they get to carry it through.
It isn't specified how you react to the trigger but it doesn't matter. A readied action happens before the triggering action happens. Full Stop.
Jason Buhlman (I believe, may have been another developer) has posted that the reason for this is because the rules don't allow for a concept of 'in the middle of someone else's action', but that really is the intent. I may try to find the quote later.
In that case casting causes you to let your guard down, so it has to already be in progress.
This is a double standard. AoO's, like readied actions, go off before the triggering event. Nothing in AoO's against a cast spell says the caster must continue to try and cast the spell. Yet it is clear this is the intent based on the caster possibly losing the spell due to damage and a concentration failure.
I acknowledge that you COULD read the rules the way you are describing, but doing so fails the common sense test. So why read them that way when you can pass the common sense test when reading it to also match RAI.
E.g, I do X and trigger a readied action. After the readied action goes off I no longer do X and do something completely different. You've just created a paradox, cause if I don't do (or attempt to do) X then why did the readied action go off.
Or: A character has total cover. I ready an action to shoot it when I see it. It comes out of cover, but I shoot it before the triggering action when it still has total cover (based on the pedantic reading of the RAW, an impossible to do action). Clearly the RAI is that you shoot it in the MIDDLE of its action (not before its action). But as noted the rules have no game mechanical concept of 'middle of another players action'.
Does it make sense, for example, to ready an action to disarm someone when they attack you, they then attack you (standard action), you disarm them, they completely change their action to instead pick up their weapon (move action), then go ahead an attack you anyway (standard action). Do you really believe the RAW supports this? While this is the rules forum, and understanding RAW is important, RAW really has no value except to get to RAI. Do you really believe the RAI supports this?
Wrong, once you've committed to an action that provokes an AoO (or triggers a readied action) you are committed to using up that action with the type of action that triggered. e.g, I cannot try and trip someone, provoke an AoO (they do whatever), then instead of me continuing to try and trip them cast a spell instead free of fear from AoO's.
I do not agree with this statement at all. I have never seen anything stating that you are committed. It is impossible to state that you are committed, as with a trip, but are not committed, as in the case of movement, by following only one rule.
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Wrong, once you've committed to an action that provokes an AoO (or triggers a readied action) you are committed to using up that action with the type of action that triggered. e.g, I cannot try and trip someone, provoke an AoO (they do whatever), then instead of me continuing to try and trip them cast a spell instead free of fear from AoO's.I do not agree with this statement at all. I have never seen anything stating that you are committed. It is impossible to state that you are committed, as with a trip, but are not committed, as in the case of movement, by following only one rule.
You are committed to moving. You are not committed to where you are going to move to (including ending your movement where you currently stand as a valid option of your movement). There is no inconsistency here. You'll note there is no rule that states you are not committed either. A full attack calls out an exception that after the first attack you can change your mind and revert it to a standard action and still have a move action.
Do you believe the paradoxical situations I outlined above are valid and allowed by RAW? By RAI? By common sense?
Here is another example:
I am a spell caster, and am standing next to an enemy.
What I want to do on my turn is cast a spell and retrieve something from my handy haversack.
I fear I won't make a defensive casting concentration check for the spell I want to cast.
I fear if I cast the AoO will hit and disrupt my spell.
Given those conditions, can I get around the problem by doing the following?
Declare that I am moving away from the enemy (or attempting to trip him, or any other action that would provoke). He takes an AoO against me BEFORE my action.
I then change my mind completely and cast my spell without fear of AoO disrupting my spell since he already used it. Then proceed to retrieve the item from my haversack.
Or another example:
The enemy has combat reflexes.
I take a provoking action. After the AoO I change my mind and take a different provoking action. He gets another AoO because each provoking action still provokes. I change my mind again and take a third provoking action. Ad nasuem till the enemy has used all available AoO's and I still have not actually done any of my actions yet?
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You only provoke if you commit the action.
Yes. That's the point. Likewise a readied action only goes off if you commit the triggering action. I'm showing the fallacy of the belief that since a AoO or readied action is resolved BEFORE the triggering action, that the person who triggered can decide to do something completely different.
[C]an you initiate a standard action (attack), and during it take a 5ft step, and then finish your action (attack)?
No. "Initiating" your attack and attacking are inseparable parts of the same event; nothing can happen between them. Once you make your attack, you make you attack and if you haven't attacked, you haven't attacked.
This also means readied actions can't go off between initiating your attack and attacking, they either go off before the attack or after depending on the trigger.If the readied action goes off before the attack, you haven't attacked yet and can still 5-ft. step or even take free or swift actions before the attack. Your standard action is still locked in, but since you can take free actions or a 5-ft step at any time during your turn you can still take them before an attack.
Except both readied actions and AoO's clearly state they happen BEFORE the triggering action.
You can provoke many ways. You could say you are going to move 5' but not 5' step and provoke, then cast the spell. If they took an AoO, you baited them. I have moved around NPCs to provoke so that I could attempt a grapple without provoking. It was a valid tactic. It mattered more in 3.5 when getting hit while attempting a grapple stopped the grapple.
If someone tried exactly what you said, I would call them out on it. By RAW, yeah, I guess it would be legal.
But your way works to harm the other side. Let's say I have 10 hit points. I attack you in a way that provokes. You hit me for 8 dmg. I know you have an effect on you that does 3 damage every time I hit you. Based on your rules, I must attack you anyway, even though I know it will kill me.
The rules clearly work in step by step. Readied actions and AoO happen BEFORE the triggering action.
It is exactly the same as initiative. If I say, I attack, and that starts the fight, I could still end up being the last person to act in the first round because everyone else beat my initiative. Even though I claimed first action, I still end up going last, and can do something different.
In a AoO chain where each side gets 3 AoO attacks (6 total provocations) if the first hit kills, does the living person lose their other two AoOs for the round? Must they follow through with whatever they said they were going to do? What if it uses charges, are they lost?
Clearly it can be abused either way. To me, the logic is since it happens BEFORE, it is as the triggering action never happened. You can change your action. But I know this is hotly contested across these forums for a long time now.
YMMV, but we clearly are not going to agree. :)
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Except both readied actions and AoO's clearly state they happen BEFORE the triggering action.
You can provoke many ways. You could say you are going to move 5' but not 5' step and provoke, then cast the spell. If they took an AoO, you baited them. I have moved around NPCs to provoke so that I could attempt a grapple without provoking. It was a valid tactic. It mattered more in 3.5 when getting hit while attempting a grapple stopped the grapple.
If someone tried exactly what you said, I would call them out on it. By RAW, yeah, I guess it would be legal.
Yes it is a valid tactic. But it comes with the cost of using one of your own actions to bait their AoO.
But your way works to harm the other side. Let's say I have 10 hit points. I attack you in a way that provokes. You hit me for 8 dmg. I know you have an effect on you that does 3 damage every time I hit you. Based on your rules, I must attack you anyway, even though I know it will kill me.
Then you made a tactical mistake. That is a choice you made to provoke, knowing that attacking them would also hurt you.
The rules clearly work in step by step. Readied actions and AoO happen BEFORE the triggering action.
See the paradox of moving out of total concealment. See comments from JB.
It is exactly the same as initiative. If I say, I attack, and that starts the fight, I could still end up being the last person to act in the first round because everyone else beat my initiative. Even though I claimed first action, I still end up going last, and can do something different.
Most likely in this situation you would get to act in a surprise round when no one else does. And no, it's not really like init at all.
In a AoO chain where each side gets 3 AoO attacks (6 total provocations) if the first hit kills, does the living person lose their other two AoOs for the round? Must they follow through with whatever they said they were going to do? What if it uses charges, are they lost?
Again a choice you made. You chose to use up limited resources when you committed to taking the AoO's. That isn't abuse of the rules, that was a conscious choice you and your opponent were making to exchange blows. Not a complete change from what you actually committed to.
YMMV, but we clearly are not going to agree. :)
Yes :)
But your way works to harm the other side. Let's say I have 10 hit points. I attack you in a way that provokes. You hit me for 8 dmg. I know you have an effect on you that does 3 damage every time I hit you. Based on your rules, I must attack you anyway, even though I know it will kill me.
One additional comment on this. As a GM I might allow you to choose not to take the attack, but I certainly would not let you take a completely different action in its place.
Thanks for this thread. It's interesting, and at it's most basic form it seems rules legal (both RAI and RAW) and will help make combat a bit more dynamic. I'll be sure to alert my DMs to this rule along with the appropriate pages should they not be familiar with it.
Is this different from 3.5e? Because after playing Pathfinder since 2009 I've never seen someone make use of the 5ft step in this manner and it seems like something my group would have made excellent use of.
I would really like input on how people read the 5 ft step rules in terms of a general explanation how they work, and you go based on how the actions dictate them, or if the 5 ft step rules are exactly how they say they work, please.
Having read the quoted sections:
On your turn you may take a 5-ft step either before an action, during an action (so for full attacks this would be after the first attack but before the last attack), or as the last thing you do on your turn.
If you ready an action you can 5-ft step as part of the readied action (either before the action or after the action). If you setup your readied condition to be when someone starts attacking you (not when they hit, but when they attack) then you may take the 5 ft step and if that would place you out of their reach then the attack misses.
An example of a valid readied action to avoid being hit: I ready to 5 ft step out of someone's reach and cast hold person on them when they attack me.
So, immediate actions... can I take a 5ft step DURING THEM on other peoples turns?
That's a very grey area. Due to the continued use of "round" in the 5-ft step write up instead of "turn" then I would say yes. But IMO that's worthy of a FAQ and as a player I would completely understand if a DM ruled otherwise. I don't know if allowing 5 ft steps in immediate actions is RAI.
If the entry for 5 foot step isn't a general explanation of what it's capable of, and is literally the rules, why can't I just 5 ft whenever I want? On my turn I believe I'll use some actions, or even after my turn because I figure I would have used actions that round. The rules say that I can before, during or after in the entire round. Seems if you have it, you can spend it?
Taking a 5 ft step in someones turn feels like it should be a readied action. You might be able to argue RAW it's not (maybe, given 5 ft steps are called out in the readied action section), but RAI it seems to be.
Free action= no mention of it, but why not just speak whenever you want, and do a 5 ft step when it's not your turn?
Definitely doesn't seem RAI and isn't something I would allow and while RAW yes you could, I'd say you should definitely expect DM variance on this.
Yes, and people aren't aware of a lot of these options within the rules, and get very upset with what you can come up with.
People generally get upset when they feel like you're trying to break the rules. Coming up with this without warning in the middle of a battle, mid-game and halfway through a campaign? That's going to upset people. Telling the DM that you're intending to use this rule that many people have seemingly overlooked, giving them the relevant page numbers and the opportunity to think about what ramifications it will have on the game before saying yay or nay? Most likely going to get a significantly less upset DM. They might say no, but it's less likely to be a knee jerk reaction.
In this case, the second and third AoOs would never be triggered in the first place. Say you have Combat Reflexes and your opponent has 3 attacks per round. Your opponent wants to attempt to sunder your shield, disarm your sword and then trip you (again, assuming none of the Improved feats for these maneuvers). He takes his first attack to sunder your shield, triggering an AoO. Your AoO hits and does enough damage to reduce him below 0hp. He immediately falls unconscious and gets no chance to perform his other attacks. If you don't take the opportunity to use your AoO before he attempts to disarm you, then you have lost your chance to use it in response to the sunder.
You misunderstood Komoda's scenario.
A provokes an AoO.
B uses the AoO to make an attack that also provokes an AoO.
A uses his AoO to make an attack that provokes another AoO.
B uses this second AoO to make another attack provoking AoO.
repeat till one or both players are out of AoO's from combat reflexes.
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Wrong, once you've committed to an action that provokes an AoO (or triggers a readied action) you are committed to using up that action with the type of action that triggered. e.g, I cannot try and trip someone, provoke an AoO (they do whatever), then instead of me continuing to try and trip them cast a spell instead free of fear from AoO's.I do not agree with this statement at all. I have never seen anything stating that you are committed. It is impossible to state that you are committed, as with a trip, but are not committed, as in the case of movement, by following only one rule.
Check how trying to trip someone work.
Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
So you don't say "I want to attempt a trip" and get AoO from all the people in range.
You initiate a trip against target X and target x and only him, get to make an AoO against you.So you are committed to make a trip attempt against X because you have initiated the trip and you have selected X as the target of your trip attempt.
Same thing for casting a spell. It is not "I cast a spell". It is "I cast spell X and don't want to try a concentration check" because the spell set the concentration check DC and only not trying it provoke (barring some special ability). So you have already done some of the steps needed to cast the spell. You have selected the spell and passed the "concentration check" phase.
You chose the targets for your spell after that phase, so you are free to select any valid target after the AoO.
You misunderstood Komoda's scenario.Apologies. In this fairly unlikely scenario, I would say that yes, the extra AoOs are lost. You had to use one in order that the next one would be triggered.
I'm trying to imagine how a series of events like that would best be described. I'm picturing two people trying to sweep each others' feet out from under them until someone finally gets frustrated and just stabs the other guy.
I dont allow Folks to do stuff that provoke AOOs with a AOOs.
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So, Guy1 use the following readies action:
When Guy2 attacks me, i will attack him and then take a 5' step back.So every time Guy2 steps up to attack Guy1, Guy1 attacks and then backs up, and Guy2's turn ends, because he can't reach Guy1 and was committed to the attack? That's what you're saying, HumanFighter?
If that's true, then a Level 1 commoner (Guy1) can win a sword fight against a Level 20 Fighter (Guy2), so long as the Level 20 fighter is the aggressor. He would be untouchable to the Fighter's melee attacks, and eventually he'll roll enough 20s to kill the guy. That can't possibly be the proper interpretation of the 5' step rules.
This is only a problem if the 20th level guy isn't smart enough to change tactics.
One thing he could do, after realizing the level 1's tactic, is take a 5' step next to the level 1. Ready an action to attack him if he does anything but stand there glaring at him.
Level 1 guy now either takes some kind of action and gets one-shot by level 20, or he readies again with the same tactic. If he readies again level 20 now full attacks level 1, level attacks and 5' steps. Level 20 can take a 5' as part of his full attack, does so, then proceeds to dish out 200 damage on level 1.