0-3D Going Under


Pathfinder Adventure Card Society


I would definitely like to say I appreciate that we finally get a connection between PFS and the card game.

Just wish it would have been something more unique.

Sovereign Court

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They have to be careful, though. The benefit can't be too powerful, and thematically it fits.

However, more importantly -- Dude, where's my role card?

I really like that the scenario is harder if you have characters playing that skipped earlier scenarios of the adventure.


It is interesting to finally see a PFS RPG reward. However, since this thread is already made, I thought I'd ask a couple questions I had about the scenario.

First, this:

"When setting up the scenario, set aside all loot cards with an adventure deck number of 2 or lower that characters haven’t chosen. Choose the same number of characters to each temporarily add 1 of those loot cards to his deck, replacing a card of the same type. Return the loot cards to the box at the end of the scenario."

I'm not exactly sure what this means. What is the "same number of characters" in this case? So if there are four loot cards left over, that means choose four characters? What if it's only a three character game? Should it be "Choose up to that number of characters"? And "may" is nowhere in this line, so do these characters have to replace a card from their decks with Loot, even if they don't want to?

Second question:

Still no specifics on the gaining of our character's Roles? I thought that the Power Feat gained for finishing Adventure 3 was the fourth Power Feat that you would get after taking your Role, but this is actually just the third power feat. Seems kind of weird. Maybe we'll be finding out some answers when the first Adventure 4 Scenario comes out?

Aside from those things, I think the other mechanics are pretty interesting. Makes it seem like you're trying to make the scenario really hard from PFS RPG players who might try to just jump right into this scenario for the reward.

Sovereign Court

I think both your assumptions regarding the "may" and "up to" are correct.

Grand Lodge 5/5 *

The problem is that the character sheet PDFs say that roles will be earned after completing Adventure 3, so...

Grand Lodge

ThreeEyedSloth is correct. The scenarios/Adventures don't tell you that you've earned the Role, the character/role card does ... after completing Adventure 3. (In fact, they've said that you need to have completed all the scenarios up through 3.)


Theryon Stormrune wrote:
ThreeEyedSloth is correct. The scenarios/Adventures don't tell you that you've earned the Role, the character/role card does ... after completing Adventure 3. (In fact, they've said that you need to have completed all the scenarios up through 3.)

Actually, Adventure 3 of Skull & Shackles, Tempest Rising, has a Reward of: "Each character chooses a role card and gains a power feat."

The character sheets tell you, "You may choose one of these roles after completing Adventure 3." This line is not on the actual character/role cards. The character sheets are not part of the standard rules and cannot give you a reward. The character sheet is just telling you that after Adventure 3 is around the time when you would most likely gain your Role (hence the line on the sheet having may and the line on Tempest Rising not).

Also, as I said, completing Adventure 3 of organized play only gives you your third power feat, so if you take your role at that time, organized play will be using a non-standard Power Feat progression.

And where is it actually said that you have to complete all of the scenarios up through 3 to get your Role? If you do use the line on the character sheet as guidance, it's telling you that you just need to finish Adventure 3, creating the potential for a VERY non-standard Power Feat progression since scenarios don't have to be done in order: run your character through all scenarios in Adventure 1 and 2, except for the ones that give Power Feats. Then play all of the Adventure 3 scenarios, get your Role, then go back and get the Power Feats from Adventure 1 and 2. You can now choose all of your Power Feats from your Role!

This is why it seems that an official rule is needed or maybe an extra, mid-AP scenario to gain your Role which requires that you have completed Adventures 1, 2, and 3 to play (although it's unlikely as the schedule has already been released). When we asked Tanis about Roles in the VO forums at the start Adventure 3, the only response was: *chuckles evilly*. So yeah, I think we have to just wait and see.

Grand Lodge

pluvia33, I think you're mixing up the AP and the OP adventures. I'm sure that Tempest Rising states that. (I don't have the cards in front of me.) The actual (OP) Adventure 3, Treacherous Waters doesn't state that.

Adventure 3: Treacherous Waters wrote:
REWARD Each character gains a power feat. For the rest of the Adventure Path, when setting up each scenario, choose 1 character to temporarily replace 1 item in her deck with the loot Letter of Marque and another character to replace 1 blessing with the loot Pirate’s Favor. Return both cards to the box at the end of each scenario.
0-1D: Going Under wrote:
REWARD Each character chooses a type of boon other than loot and gains a random card of the chosen type. Each player chooses one of her Pathfinder Society RPG characters. That character may purchase potions of water breathing as though their market price were 375 gp.

And that's what I was talking about. It isn't on the (end) scenario nor on the rewards for the Adventure sheet.

I'm pretty sure Tanis mentioned in a thread (that I can't find right now) that you were required to finish all the scenarios through 3 to earn the Role reward.

And again, I don't have my class deck cards in front of me but I play off the class deck sheet. And that states under each role that it may be chosen after completing Adventure 3. I didn't say it was a reward ... I said it was earned. That can be interpreted in many ways.

Grand Lodge

btw, not really thrilled about the boon we can purchase but thematically, it makes sense.

Sovereign Court

It was talked about in another thread Theryon, but no one ever actually said what the requirement was. As pluvia said, we got an evil chuckle and nothing more. Yes, the character sheets say you get it after adventure 3, but that's not mentioned anywhere else. I find it really hard (read: impossible) to believe that they would require you to use the character sheet to know when to get your role.

They may have a template for the sheets they use, and so that text was left from the main game sheets. We don't know what happened, but we do know we haven't been told to take our role yet from anything that everyone is expected to have - which is the only place that would actually give the role card. If it were in the Guide or on the info card in the class decks I'd say take it now. Only on the character sheets, we are definitely not supposed to take it based solely on that.

Grand Lodge

I guess the best thing is to officially ask (again).


There's a few questions about the boon that I should clarify in the PFS forum. I'll go ahead and do that. I'm pretty sure the VO forums are already buzzing with talk about it.


Theryon Stormrune wrote:
pluvia33, I think you're mixing up the AP and the OP adventures. I'm sure that Tempest Rising states that. (I don't have the cards in front of me.) The actual (OP) Adventure 3, Treacherous Waters doesn't state that.

No, I wasn't "mixing them up" at all. I know very well what the OP Scenario rewards are. I was just stating, as a precedent, that in the base game AP you gain your Role as a reward. In OP, that has not happened yet and there is no reason for anyone to believe you gain it any other way.

You can't just assume that you automatically get your Role after completing all scenarios in Adventures 1 through 3. Again, where was it ever mentioned that this is how it works in OP? I've never seen it stated anywhere officially. If it was just stated randomly in the forums somewhere, I don't remember ever seeing it, and that would be a very sloppy way to distribute a very important rule.

Silver Crusade 3/5

I think the major assumption that the fact that you get a role card after adventure 3 comes from a few ideas. In Runelords and Shackles, both campaign modes of the game give you the role card after completing the third adventure. Also, if you look at the Pregens in the Organized Play handbook, it states that the high level pregens that are available for scenarios 4, 5, and 6 all have roll cards attached to them in their stats.

That's where the assumptions are coming from and I have my personal predictions on how we're going to see the roll card brought up, but since I haven't looked at the VO boards this morning, I'll keep my thoughts to myself, just in case it's been discussed there.


Yes, Josh, but both RotR and S&S don't assume you get your role card after adventure 3, it's explicitly stated in the Adventure that you do as said above.

Now I want to be a PFSACG VL so I can actually look at the VO forums. (I've actually started by running my first event here. 1 person played other than me, but I'm okay with this!)


Lookw like you don't get your role till end of adventure deck 4.


lostpike wrote:
Lookw like you don't get your role till end of adventure deck 4.

Do you say that as someone who has seen adventure 4? (As a store owner, I assume you have early access to it before it is for sale on the site.)

Grand Lodge 5/5 *

He is correct. You earn your role card and power feat at the end of Adventure 4.


This seems unfortunate. Some class deck characters are underpowered as it is because their deck doesn't support them particularly well (such as the ranged-attack rangers). Getting the role card at the end of 4 instead of 3 makes such characters even weaker.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

pluvia33 wrote:

It is interesting to finally see a PFS RPG reward. However, since this thread is already made, I thought I'd ask a couple questions I had about the scenario.

First, this:

"When setting up the scenario, set aside all loot cards with an adventure deck number of 2 or lower that characters haven’t chosen. Choose the same number of characters to each temporarily add 1 of those loot cards to his deck, replacing a card of the same type. Return the loot cards to the box at the end of the scenario."

I'm not exactly sure what this means. What is the "same number of characters" in this case? So if there are four loot cards left over, that means choose four characters? What if it's only a three character game? Should it be "Choose up to that number of characters"? And "may" is nowhere in this line, so do these characters have to replace a card from their decks with Loot, even if they don't want to?

The loot is optional. We'll make the sentence "The same number of characters may each temporarily add 1 of those loot cards to his deck, replacing a card of the same type."


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ThreeEyedSloth wrote:
He is correct. You earn your role card and power feat at the end of Adventure 4.

This seems like a gratuitously unfun way to balance things. Only getting to specialize with a role for half the campaign is a long enough wait as it is--having the coolest part of many characters be usable for less of OP than a regular path seems unnecessary, when there are so many other ways to ensure an appropriate difficulty-to-character-power ratio.

Why?


philosorapt0r wrote:
ThreeEyedSloth wrote:
He is correct. You earn your role card and power feat at the end of Adventure 4.

This seems like a gratuitously unfun way to balance things. Only getting to specialize with a role for half the campaign is a long enough wait as it is--having the coolest part of many characters be usable for less of OP than a regular path seems unnecessary, when there are so many other ways to ensure an appropriate difficulty-to-character-power ratio.

Why?

And the fact that the adventures are 4 scenarios a piece makes it even worse. That is a whole 8 scenarios with your role card.

Grand Lodge 5/5 *

Remember, this is a playtest season. Thisnis an opportunity to experiment and try new things within the game's framework that wouldn't really be possible with the base retail product.


ThreeEyedSloth wrote:
He is correct. You earn your role card and power feat at the end of Adventure 4.

That's disappointing - some of us chose our characters with the assumption we'd have the roles for at least half the campaign.

* Contributor

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Here's an unrelated question (although it's about 0-3D Going Under, so this seems the right place to put it):

The villain makes you summon and encounter the Blackwater Charda henchman. The Blackwater Charda henchman is one of the henchmen shuffled into a location during setup, so might not be available.

The best we can tell, the aboleth's power is ignored as impossible if the Blackwater Charda hasn't been defeated and sent to the box; otherwise, it forces you to summon the Blackwater Charda as normal.

(This initially seemed an error to us, but upon reflection makes some balancing sense: if you encounter the aboleth early, it's combat difficulty is so high that it's something of a kindness that it's not able to throw the charda at you, too; by the time it can throw the charda at you, its combat difficulty will be more manageable.)


So, no role card, despite the fact that the character sheet says we get it at the end of adventure 3, but it's ok, because as a reward we can have a bonus in some other game we don't play?

The loot is also much less use in OP - with a class deck, there's a definite lack of pirates to recharge the far glass, so it just becomes a spyglass...

Pathfinder ACG Designer

Ron Lundeen wrote:

The best we can tell, the aboleth's power is ignored as impossible if the Blackwater Charda hasn't been defeated and sent to the box; otherwise, it forces you to summon the Blackwater Charda as normal.

Exactly!

Silver Crusade

I hate to be critical, as I have been enjoying PACG for the most part, but this scenario really irked me. The main thing that I'm frustrated about was that I have missed one scenario this adventure due to work, scenario 3. This would normally be bad enough -- I can't take the adventure reward until I'm caught up, and I am missing a card feat, fine.

Instead, however, the scenario imposes a penalty on *the party* for me having had RL impose itself on me! How is this supposed to be a good idea? You already have one or more characters that are 'underlevelled' for the scenario, and you then punish them for having missed a game -- and punish the players that choose to play alongside them!

This 'fear of tanking the party' actually helped contribute to one of our players who missed scenarios 2 and 3 skipping out on 4 entirely, and then deciding to quit PACG altogether!


I've not seen this scenario, so could you elaborate? How does it punish you for not having completed an earlier scenario?

Silver Crusade

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I've not seen this scenario, so could you elaborate? How does it punish you for not having completed an earlier scenario?

In the During This Scenario section, it adds the following three punitive paragraphs:

Quote:

If any character has not successfully completed Scenario 0-3A: Wrecking Ball, Uthiggmaru gains this power: "Before you act, each character is dealt 2 Mental damage."

If any character has not successfully completed Scenario 0-3B: On Top of the World, Uthiggmaru gains this power: "Before you act, each charater recharges a card."

If any character has not successfully completed Scenario 0-3C: Jungle Boogie, Uthiggmaru gains this power: "Before you act, each character at your location summons and encounters the henchman Scurvy Zombie."

This means that if you are playing to win, you are technically better off excluding the character that has missed one or more scenarios, rather than allowing them in. Admittedly, the one I missed, Scenario 0-3C, is the weakest of the three penalties, but I don't think there should have been these penalties in the first place!

Sovereign Court

The penalties are there because this scenario reward includes benefits for the RPG. It's to discourage RPG players from hopping into a PACG game just to get the RPG award, and instead actually play through the adventure.

I personally don't see it as a problem. It shouldn't seem that weird that if someone plays a scenario their character hasn't reached, it might be more of a challenge.

Silver Crusade

Andrew L Klein wrote:

The penalties are there because this scenario reward includes benefits for the RPG. It's to discourage RPG players from hopping into a PACG game just to get the RPG award, and instead actually play through the adventure.

I personally don't see it as a problem. It shouldn't seem that weird that if someone plays a scenario their character hasn't reached, it might be more of a challenge.

Andrew: Then instead have it that the RPG boon is available on the Adventure, rather than the Scenario -- this accomplishes the needed goal, without throwing in penalties. As well, my biggest issue is the fact that this penalty applies to *everyone* at the table.

In short, you are being actively discouraged from letting a player who is behind play with you. If this is just to gate content for one player, who already would be behind on skill feats and/or card feats, why also punish the players who choose to play with them?

Sovereign Court

Again, when you play with someone who is behind, it's going to get harder. They just elected to do it this time in a way more than the usual, generic way of saying "well they have less feats and worse cards". I like that. I like when they mix up game mechanics based on what kind of characters show up. I'd like to see this even more, like a villain that has extra powers based on which classes are playing.

The reward isn't powerful enough to be an adventure reward, so it's placement as a scenario reward makes sense.

I'm sure this next part didn't have anything to do with the reasoning, but I know in D&D and I believe Pathfinder there certain enemies that also change based on your character level. For example, some monsters might have immunity from anyone below level 15. I like those kinds of mechanics, and I like that the card game has mechanics in place to keep people from just skipping through scenarios they don't like just because they don't care about those rewards.

You aren't being discouraged from letting players behind you join in. They're being encouraged to play through the scenarios. We all know some people can't make the time for every scenario, but that doesn't change the fact that the primary intent is for people to do so. You're going to see times where there is more downside to missing scenarios than the generic less feats and worse cards.

Silver Crusade

They're being encouraged to play through the scenarios by peer pressure -- play through these other scenarios first, or people will exclude and/or hate you for having missed a week. Not all of us are able to play multiple scenarios in a week just to get people caught up easily, and I honestly don't like seeing anything where *other* people get punished overtly for letting me join the table.

Sovereign Court

If people are excluding or acting negatively towards someone because they are behind, that's something to talk to those people about and they need to stop. It doesn't necessarily mean there is something wrong in the game mechanics. Again, if you miss scenarios and go into later scenarios, of course it's going to be harder, including for those other players.

Obviously there's going to be different opinions on this, and I'm just giving mine.

I just don't think that we should exclude mechanics from scenarios just because some people are going to be playing them at a lower power level than intended.

Grand Lodge 5/5 *

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It's an interesting idea, but one that I think ultimately doesn't work as-is in organized play. There should be rewards to incentivize players to play each scenario, not penalties.

I think it would've been a lot better if the overall scenario was tougher, and then completing all of the scenarios in the current adventure would make the villain easier. That way people don't feel punished for not being able to make a session.

The penalty for not making all scenarios is missing out on rewards. That already exists. There's no reason to compound even more on top of it.

Andrew: The "Immunity to Level" thing doesn't exist, at least in Pathfinder, so there's no thematic context for it to the RPG.

Sovereign Court

Thanks for the RPG info. I still like it though, my interest wasn't based on it being in the RPG, just giving an example.

I look at it was a benefit instead of a penalty though. If they put all the powers on the villain, and the scenario powers was to remove certain powers if the party had all completed a certain scenario, it would function exactly the same. However, it fits your description of the villain being easier, would you be fine with that? Is it just a wording issue that makes it seem worse?

Grand Lodge 5/5 *

Yeah. All of my local players are really annoyed/upset about it because, without any comments from my end, read the next scenario and immediately felt like it was a punishment. Not everyone has been able to make it for all of the Adventure 3 scenarios, so they feel it's cheap for the game to punish everyone.

I think a better solution would've been to apply those penalties to that specific character if they haven't played those earlier scenarios and encounter the villain, not the entire table.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

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Something to also keep in mind - Season 0 of the PACG is a playtest season - the folks at Paizo are trying out different things, seeing what works, seeing what doesn't work.

Threads like these (as long as they don't get loaded down with vitriol) are a good way for them to tell what things maybe didn't go over so well with people.

We played it and ran into similar problems - both of our local tables survived the encounters though (barely!).


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Some in our area have done everything through 3-B at this point; we also have new players just joining & some in between. So most of us have chosen at least a 2nd character with which to replay lower level scenarios. A few times we have replayed w/the same character & just not taken rewards (I had a few scenarios whose reward didn't benefit me the 1st time, so it's not like I was losing anything). Some people want to play 6 scenarios/month but not all of us do. I think the rules allow for that flexibility.

That being said, I myself have not chosen a 2nd character yet. And I'm glad this issue was pointed out on the forum before we got to the point of playing it. :)

Sovereign Court 1/5 *

Last night Flenta, Agna, Zarlova, and I went exploring under the sea! I wouldn't say it was better down where it's wetter, more like everywhere we went wore us down. It didn't help that our friends insisted on coming along and they brought so much stuff that we had to leave some of ours behind to make room on the ship.

Anyway...

So we spread out from where we anchored the ship and slowly picked away at the various places where we thought the Wheel could be. I found a powerful freezing spell that was very useful later on, though I never did remember how to cast it again.

After interrogating a couple of bad guys and finding out they didn't have the Wheel, we knew we had to go deeper. So we decided to group up and go through the deep. That's when we ran into Uthigmi...Uthigga...Uthi! Uthi is mean! Still, Agna and Flenta were able to drive it off, leaving two places where it could have gone. (I beat up a guy to cut off one place it could have gone.)

At this point we were starting to run out of water breathing potions, so we had to go for broke and spread out again. Lucky for us, Agna's animal friends found where Uthi ended up (right under our ship!) and we were able to ambush it and all of its underwater minions with the last of our potions.

Now we have a really stylish steering wheel for our ship and we all have awesome new powers! I'm learning to control chaos! :)

-=-=-=-=-

So yeah, we took all of the Loot cards. It ended up helping us, as people who normally don't take the anti-Aquatic weapons had them when they needed them, but the Allies weren't very helpful. Also, anchored ship which vastly reduces the value of the Hat of Power.

Also, when we ran into the Villain the first time, we used a picture of Blackwater Charda since it was still in a Location at the time. (The second time we had it.)

We only acquired one boon above B: the Freezing Sphere Spell 3 I found early on. Zarlova and I diced off for it. (Now I have Swipe! :) Getting our Roles made up for it, though.

I'm looking forward to continuing on in the Shackles!

-=-=-=-=-

I didn't see a thread for this in the Guild area, but here's my Amaryllis at the midpoint of SotS:

Role: Primalist

Skills:
Charisma +3

Powers:
Hand Size 7
If you fail...any check....
When you play Blessing of the Gods, add a d12....

Cards:
Spell 7
Blessing 4


I played this scenario last night, after powering through 03B and 03C in less than 8 explorations each (there were 3 of us).

Let's just say there's a reason it's called "Going Under." Both Radillo and Heggal died valiant deaths, and my Wrathack barely made it out alive. I did manage to roll a 25 on the dice themselves, but it wasn't enough, because Uthi escaped and then slaughtered Heggal. Poor, poor Heggal.

Radillo never asked for or let us know she needed help, so even though I had a blessing and my snow leopard, I couldn't help. And no one ever wanted to be at the same location as me so I could finally use my "recharge a 2-handed weapon to add 1d4 +1 to a combat check" power (I still haven't used that).

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