Mutated bloodline question


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Are the sorcerer's mutated bloodlines consider the same bloodline as their "unmutated" bloodline for effects that relate to specific bloodlines?

More specifically, Can a cross-blooded sorcerer have both the mutated version and the unmutated version of the same bloodline?

Like, to get both bloodline arcanas.

I suppose the question is, is a mutated bloodline actually a bloodline of its own, or is it just an archetype for an existing bloodline.


Per the FAQ, you can't have both the wildblooded and crossblooded archetypes on the same character.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rai wrote:

Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?

No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.

Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.

Scarab Sages

That quote really doesn't make much sense. I get that it's official, but wow, just never would have concluded that the above was the intention of the wild blooded "archetype" text. I use quotes because every time I read it, it seems clear that the intention is to modify existing bloodlines instead of having to reprint the entire thing, not to be an archetype of it's own. No wonder players are complaining about the lack of sorcerer options.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Let us assume it is intentional that they didn't stack, since if they intended them to stack they would have written one of the two in a way to say it doesn't need to follow the normal rules for archetypes that "alter" the same features.

Alter is a pretty inclusive word. It covers adding, removing, changing, negating, and pretty much every other things that could be imagined.

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:

Let us assume it is intentional that they didn't stack, since if they intended them to stack they would have written one of the two in a way to say it doesn't need to follow the normal rules for archetypes that "alter" the same features.

Alter is a pretty inclusive word. It covers adding, removing, changing, negating, and pretty much every other things that could be imagined.

Well, you say that, but the text of the wildblooded is unclear enough that they needed to FAQ it above with a long FAQ posting.

As I read it, the wildblooded modifies the bloodline, while the crossblooded modifies the selection of abilities within the bloodline. They don't seem to be in conflict.

I'm also not seeing anything particularly unbalancing about a PC with multiple wildblooded archetypes, the crossblooded archetype isn't unbalancing to begin with. This thought is further impressed on me by having the eldrich heritage feats, which allow a sorcerer of any archetype, to acquire a 2nd or third bloodline.

If anything, the crossblooded archetype could be argued broken, but I think it mostly just weakens the sorcerer too much. Knowing one less spell at each level means they must wait a level longer to cast spells at each level bracket (though they can metamagic at the normal levels). The -2 will is annoying, but negligible compared to knowing less spells.

Scarab Sages

Though back to the original question, this part still hasn't been answered:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Are the sorcerer's mutated bloodlines consider the same bloodline as their "unmutated" bloodline for effects that relate to specific bloodlines?

For example, some effects and abilities specifically work with bloodlines. Is a mutated bloodline considered a bloodline of it's own? Or is it synonymous with the unmutated bloodline?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I consider the mutated bloodline to be a modified version of the normal - changing the abilities of the bloodline is what the wildblooded archetype does. So you still pick a normal bloodline, say arcane, and then your archetype coverts that choice to sage.

Not everybody agrees with this interpretation. Expect table variation if PFS, ask your GM if not.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Anarchic Wildblooded:
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever ...
Bloodline Powers: Raw magical ...

Crossblooded:
Bloodline Arcana: A crossblooded ...
Bloodline Powers: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th ...

Notice they both alter Bloodline Arcana and Bloodline Powers.

Because they both alter the same things, you can never be Crossblooded and Wildblooded.

I appreciate that a lot of people don't see this as a conflict.

As for whether or not they are the same as untalented, I wouldn't rule them the same. Expect table variance. If you play this in PFS, plan to use your character without the features that depend on them being the same feature as the mutilated.

Liberty's Edge

Official stance: Wildblooded + Crossblooded cannot be combined. Mutated bloodlines ARE the base bloodlines for all purposes other than what the archetype changes. I base the second assertion off of the fact that the text indicates that you must select the base bloodline, then apply wildblooded over top of it. This means that whether you selected Arcane or Sage, you still selected "Arcane" first then chose an archetype to modify it (or chose not to, as the case may be).

When I DM: I keep the second assertion (base and wildblood are treated as the same bloodline), but reject the notion that wildblooded cannot stack with crossblooded. This means you can't select Infernal + Pit Touched as a crossblood, but could select Celestial + Pit Touched. If they pick Sage + Empyreal, then their "special power" is that they can choose whether to cast with int or wis at any given time (not that this grants them much).


James Risner wrote:
Notice they both alter Bloodline Arcana and Bloodline Powers.

This is true. The FAQ supports this. The FAQ also says that it O.K. to do with GM discretion, so it's essentially an optional rule officially.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

NikolaiJuno, all rules are optional. Rule 0 assets that.

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:

Anarchic Wildblooded:

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever ...
Bloodline Powers: Raw magical ...

Crossblooded:
Bloodline Arcana: A crossblooded ...
Bloodline Powers: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th ...

I do see your reasoning. I disagree, but with the FAQ in place, my opinion isn't one regarding rules, which is the section of the forum we're in.

James Risner wrote:
As for whether or not they are the same as untalented, I wouldn't rule them the same. Expect table variance. If you play this in PFS, plan to use your character without the features that depend on them being the same feature as the mutilated.

Mutilated?

Anyway, so no clear answer if they are the same or not. Got it.

On a side note, are the mutated bloodlines eligible for Eldrich heritage? Been very unclear on this point.

As I read it, if they are the same bloodline, just a class archetype that modifies them, then they'd be ineligible. If they are different bloodlines, then they'd be legal picks.


I do believe that it's RAW that they're not legal for Eldritch Heritage.

And yeah, while I'd allow Crossblooded + Wildblooded in a heartbeat, no taking the same one twice. Though I can't think of a single time when that'd be the optimal choice. Arcane/Sage is the closest and even then... a familiar is not worth -2 Will and screwing your spell list sideways.

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:
Though I can't think of a single time when that'd be the optimal choice. Arcane/Sage is the closest and even then... a familiar is not worth -2 Will and screwing your spell list sideways.

It probably isn't. Was more a "can I" question. Then again, the sorcerer isn't typically considered an optimal class to begin with.

Any clue where the RAW that says they can't be mutated bloodlines is found? The eldrich heritage just says bloodlines and the wildblooded doesn't seem to imply that they cease to be bloodlines, it even seems to imply that they are different bloodlines.

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