Perhaps the original intent was you could only do a MOVE action while nauseated - not a move-equivalent action? As in, all you can do is stagger around puking your guts out - you are too distracted to do any other sort of action.
From my youth, this seems the most realistic description of the condition anyway...
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Yeah, i drop things to draw stuff all the time? That doesn't seem like a super niche edge case, it seems like a common thing. I also played a character who fell prone every combat, because ranged attacks suck and you can cast spells perfectly fine from the ground
I'm laughing at the people saying this is how nauseated was meant to be, lol.
Maybe they should change the name so the condition is more grokkable.
How about Nauseated with an unbreakable iron grip you must use all your focus in order to open your hand.
Or maybe like Nauseated also you can no longer fall down out of your own power.
I'm not sure anyone actually reads that you can no longer open your hand easily while nauseated and thinks that is reasonable. Or you are so nauseated that you can no longer fall down under your own power, you must carefully lay down using all of your focus. It seems like they just want to agree with the pdt or something? Its like, so obviously silly that you can no longer fall down that it has to be something else behind defending the change.
"nauseated is supposed to be powerful" I dunno if you noticed this but nauseated is pretty f*%$ing powerful already. I consider it to be a save or die, because you have no more input on the fight while nauseated. Any criticisms of this ruling have 0 to do with power, and everything to do with having design that makes sense.
I've already showcased that all of those things can still be done.
You keep making ridiculous claims with zero backing in the rules. Every example you've given of why this is silly is untrue. That is your issue.
I've already showcased that all of those things can still be done.
.
At the cost of a move action. I can make a dash for the porcelain throne but I can't even shift my greatsword from a one handed grip to a two handed grip on the way?
Thats the kind of weird that a DM needs to look at and take on a case by case basis.
I've already showcased that all of those things can still be done.
.At the cost of a move action. I can make a dash for the porcelain throne but I can't even shift my greatsword from a one handed grip to a two handed grip on the way?
Thats the kind of weird that a DM needs to look at and take on a case by case basis.
The game is an abstraction.
The actions can still be taken but require more effort. You can still dash to the porcelain throne and play around with your great-sword. It just takes 12 seconds instead of 6 seconds.
Oh no my immersion is dead now.
I've already showcased that all of those things can still be done.
.At the cost of a move action. I can make a dash for the porcelain throne but I can't even shift my greatsword from a one handed grip to a two handed grip on the way?
Thats the kind of weird that a DM needs to look at and take on a case by case basis.
There is no way for the devs to word the faq that would not introduce some silly consequences. They want the Nauseated condition to prevent things like using Lay on Hands to yourself to remove the Nauseated condition (a swift action) or drinking with fast drinker to regain ki since you can't do anything else anyway (swift action), or maintaining bardic performance (free action), or reloading your crossbow with Crossbow Mastery (free action).
Either they have to enumerate each exception such as dropping prone, dropping a held object, speaking, etc... or they can just say Nauseated allows Move actions only and trust that the players are able to handle those fringe cases of silliness with common sense.
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or they can just say Nauseated allows Move actions only and trust that the players are able to handle those fringe cases of silliness with common sense.
We can't.
We just can't...
"Some free actions may be allowed at the GM's discretion" would solve most problems.
It's clear what they intend, but I doubt anyone will actually take issue if a GM is a little bit lenient.
or they can just say Nauseated allows Move actions only and trust that the players are able to handle those fringe cases of silliness with common sense.
Remember that those people in PFS don't have that option.
"Some free actions may be allowed at the GM's discretion" would solve most problems.
It's clear what they intend, but I doubt anyone will actually take issue if a GM is a little bit lenient.
We all know that those complaining aren't doing so because they ever really intend to drop prone while Nauseated, drop prone while Nauseated, etc... What they are trying to argue is that forbidding free and swift actions is in and of itself silly using those as examples because they want to be able to be able to use all of those nifty abilities, feats and features that are free and swift actions and aren't silly to prohibit while Nauseated.
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We all know that those complaining aren't doing so because they ever really intend to drop prone while Nauseated, drop prone while Nauseated, etc... What they are trying to argue is that forbidding free and swift actions is in and of itself silly using those as examples because they want to be able to be able to use all of those nifty abilities, feats and features that are free and swift actions and aren't silly to prohibit while Nauseated."Some free actions may be allowed at the GM's discretion" would solve most problems.
It's clear what they intend, but I doubt anyone will actually take issue if a GM is a little bit lenient.
We know that? KNOW it?
No, we don't. In fact, I know that's not what I'm doing. At all. Not even close.
I actually DON'T want to be able to do awesome class abilities and quickened spells and such while nauseated. I think that would be a bad idea and not what the RAW or RAI would suggest should be allowed. I reiterate, I DO NOT want that at all.
I'm only pointing out that the rule, and the FAQ, have made it clear that obviously simple things, natural things, that everybody can do all the time, become impossible while nauseated, even though it's still possible to do the same exact thing as part of a more difficult/intricate/higher-effort action.
To me that's silly and I won't run it that way.
Fred: Haha, Mike's Stinking Cloud nauseated that brigand and now he's puking all over the place. Nice one, Mike!
Bob: OK, let's end this. I don't want to kill him. Let's drag him back to town for trial.
Bob: OK, Brigand, drop your sword and we'll spare your life!
Brigand: *just stands there, puking.
Mike: Hey, guys, he can't drop it. He's puking.
Bob: I just want him to open his fingers. That's all.
Fred: Yeah, I think he's faking. He's waiting for the nausea to wear off so he can attack again.
Mike: Nope. He literally cannot open his fingers. He's way too nauseated for that.
Bob: Wow. How sick do you have to be before you can't even open your hand?
Brigand: *tosses up last week's lunch
Fred: Ewww, that looks like part of a cat. What does this guy eat, anyway?
Bob: I don't wanna know.
Fred: I got it. Hey, brigand, bend over and put your sword gently on the ground. I promise we won't hit you while you're bent over. Then open your fingers to let go of it. If you do that, we'll spare your life.
Bob: That's stupid, Fred. He's too nauseated to open his fingers.
Fred: Crap, you're right. I forgot.
Brigand: *bends down, puts his sword on the ground, then opens his fingers to let go of it.
Bob: Hey, wait. Mike said he couldn't open his fingers!
Mike: It's true, he couldn't just open his fingers.
Bob: You saw him, he just did!
Fred! Yeah! The nausea must be wearing off! Kill him before he eats another cat!
Makes no sense.
That's all I'm saying. It makes no sense. Saying that it makes no sense is not me masking some hidden agenda to ruin everybody's game by trying to sneak in a quickened Fireball. I promise.
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Remember that those people in PFS don't have that option.
or they can just say Nauseated allows Move actions only and trust that the players are able to handle those fringe cases of silliness with common sense.
That claim gets made a lot but it is not true
Be cautious about embracing a 100% RAW perspective, especially when adjudicating in-game effects that do not rely on character build.
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There is no way for the devs to word the faq that would not introduce some silly consequences. They want the Nauseated condition to prevent things like using Lay on Hands to yourself to remove the Nauseated condition (a swift action) or drinking with fast drinker to regain ki since you can't do anything else anyway (swift action), or maintaining bardic performance (free action), or reloading your crossbow with Crossbow Mastery (free action).
Agreed. Which is why I plan on using this one with a healthy stuffing of RAI.
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Now without the hyperbole.
Fred: Haha, Mike's Stinking Cloud nauseated that brigand and now he's puking all over the place. Nice one, Mike!
Bob: OK, let's end this. I don't want to kill him. Let's drag him back to town for trial.
Bob: OK, Brigand, drop your sword and we'll spare your life!
Brigand: Uses Move Action to put sword on ground
We all know that those complaining aren't doing so because they ever really intend to drop prone while Nauseated, drop prone while Nauseated, etc... What they are trying to argue is that forbidding free and swift actions is in and of itself silly using those as examples because they want to be able to be able to use all of those nifty abilities, feats and features that are free and swift actions and aren't silly to prohibit while Nauseated."Some free actions may be allowed at the GM's discretion" would solve most problems.
It's clear what they intend, but I doubt anyone will actually take issue if a GM is a little bit lenient.
We know that? KNOW it?
No, we don't. In fact, I know that's not what I'm doing. At all. Not even close.
I actually DON'T want to be able to do awesome class abilities and quickened spells and such while nauseated. I think that would be a bad idea and not what the RAW or RAI would suggest should be allowed. I reiterate, I DO NOT want that at all.
I'm only pointing out that the rule, and the FAQ, have made it clear that obviously simple things, natural things, that everybody can do all the time, become impossible while nauseated, even though it's still possible to do the same exact thing as part of a more difficult/intricate/higher-effort action.
To me that's silly and I won't run it that way.
Fred: Haha, Mike's Stinking Cloud nauseated that brigand and now he's puking all over the place. Nice one, Mike!
Bob: OK, let's end this. I don't want to kill him. Let's drag him back to town for trial.
Bob: OK, Brigand, drop your sword and we'll spare your life!
Brigand: *just stands there, puking.
Mike: Hey, guys, he can't drop it. He's puking.
Bob: I just want him to open his fingers. That's all.
Fred: Yeah, I think he's faking. He's waiting for the nausea to wear off so he can attack again.
Mike: Nope. He literally cannot open his fingers. He's way too nauseated for that.
Bob: Wow. How sick do you have to...
Did I say that those who think that scenario makes no sense are wanting to sneak something by the rules? No, that is not what I said at all. I said that such situations are silly myself. Do we need a FAQ to enumerate each and every swift and free action that is and is not permitted to avoid such silliness? No.
To me that's silly and I won't run it that way.
Which is exactly what I suggested the devs intended. It is those who argue that rather than doing that the FAQ needs to be changed that I argue are simply wanting to sneak in those metaphorical quickened fireballs.
How? Even if you change the actions available, you still can't cast.
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Now without the hyperbole.
Fred: Haha, Mike's Stinking Cloud nauseated that brigand and now he's puking all over the place. Nice one, Mike!
Bob: OK, let's end this. I don't want to kill him. Let's drag him back to town for trial.
Bob: OK, Brigand, drop your sword and we'll spare your life!
Brigand: Uses Move Action to put sword on ground
Using a MOVE action to put his sword on the ground includes opening his fingers so he's not holding it anymore, right? He does that right after he bends down and lays his sword on the ground. But yet the FREE action to just open his fingers is prohibited unless he also bends over and puts it on the ground.
There is no hyperbole. It's the RAW and it's clarified by the FAQ.
And it's silly which is why I'm calling it out.
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There is no way for the devs to word the faq that would not introduce some silly consequences. They want the Nauseated condition to prevent things like using Lay on Hands to yourself to remove the Nauseated condition (a swift action) or drinking with fast drinker to regain ki since you can't do anything else anyway (swift action), or maintaining bardic performance (free action), or reloading your crossbow with Crossbow Mastery (free action).
Either they have to enumerate each exception such as dropping prone, dropping a held object, speaking, etc... or they can just say Nauseated allows Move actions only and trust that the players are able to handle those fringe cases of silliness with common sense.
Or they could have said that you can still take swift/free while nauseated, but because nauseated prevents anything requiring concentration, then GM's are free to rule what types of swift/free actions require concentration. No built in silliness, while leaving the flexibility for GM's to rule out LoH (or other swifts) if they feel it requires concentration.
Now without the hyperbole.
Fred: Haha, Mike's Stinking Cloud nauseated that brigand and now he's puking all over the place. Nice one, Mike!
Bob: OK, let's end this. I don't want to kill him. Let's drag him back to town for trial.
Bob: OK, Brigand, drop your sword and we'll spare your life!
Brigand: Uses Move Action to put sword on groundUsing a MOVE action to put his sword on the ground includes opening his fingers so he's not holding it anymore, right? He does that right after he bends down and lays his sword on the ground. But yet the FREE action to just open his fingers is prohibited unless he also bends over and puts it on the ground.
There is no hyperbole. It's the RAW and it's clarified by the FAQ.
And it's silly which is why I'm calling it out.
Good job! You've found a silly rule :D Now, I suggest you handle it the way you handle all the other silly rules there are.
Is anyone really worried about the class most likely to save in the first place using a class feature with an option designed to deal with nausea?
I feel like this is kind of a storm in a tea cup.
Or they could have said that you can still take swift/free while nauseated, but because nauseated prevents anything requiring concentration, then GM's are free to rule what types of swift/free actions require concentration. No built in silliness, while leaving the flexibility for GM's to rule out LoH (or other swifts) if they feel it requires concentration.There is no way for the devs to word the faq that would not introduce some silly consequences. They want the Nauseated condition to prevent things like using Lay on Hands to yourself to remove the Nauseated condition (a swift action) or drinking with fast drinker to regain ki since you can't do anything else anyway (swift action), or maintaining bardic performance (free action), or reloading your crossbow with Crossbow Mastery (free action).
Either they have to enumerate each exception such as dropping prone, dropping a held object, speaking, etc... or they can just say Nauseated allows Move actions only and trust that the players are able to handle those fringe cases of silliness with common sense.
Reloading a Crossbow Mastery doesn't require concentration or a barbarian could not reload his Crossbow as a free action while raging. Which shouldn't be a problem.
So the GM would have to either nerf the party barbarian or allow that to be used while Nauseated by declaring it requires concentration. You see any wording they put in there is going to be problematic.
It is better just to say no move actions and then let GMs handle the silliness with common sense.
Now without the hyperbole.
Fred: Haha, Mike's Stinking Cloud nauseated that brigand and now he's puking all over the place. Nice one, Mike!
Bob: OK, let's end this. I don't want to kill him. Let's drag him back to town for trial.
Bob: OK, Brigand, drop your sword and we'll spare your life!
Brigand: Uses Move Action to put sword on groundUsing a MOVE action to put his sword on the ground includes opening his fingers so he's not holding it anymore, right? He does that right after he bends down and lays his sword on the ground. But yet the FREE action to just open his fingers is prohibited unless he also bends over and puts it on the ground.
There is no hyperbole. It's the RAW and it's clarified by the FAQ.
And it's silly which is why I'm calling it out.
You are the one going out of your way to make it silly. Your story was the definition of hyperbole.
You think it's silly. Which is fine.
I don't think it's silly. Mainly since i can still do all of those actions just at a slower pace than normal.
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From an outside pov it is absolutely silly that you cannot open your fingers when holding an object, but can when you bend over to drop it to the ground, it's the very definition, 'absurd'. But it's how the condition works.
It's a rules mechanic trying to model a condition that's worse than Staggered, so in the mechanics of the game it makes complete sense ruleswise to work as it does, since that specifically makes it worse than Staggered.
Just treat it the same way we do everything else that is 'silly' (fireballs, Dragons flying, the mass slaughter of the laws of nature and physics, etc), ignore the weirdness, play the game and have fun.
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From an outside pov it is absolutely silly that you cannot open your fingers when holding an object, but can when you bend over to drop it to the ground, it's the very definition, 'absurd'. But it's how the condition works.
Well, if I had suggested that the drop action takes more time when you're nauseated, people would complain 'but that's not the rules!'
Reloading a Crossbow Mastery doesn't require concentration or a barbarian could not reload his Crossbow as a free action while raging. Which shouldn't be a problem.So the GM would have to either nerf the party barbarian or allow that to be used while Nauseated by declaring it requires concentration. You see any wording they put in there is going to be problematic.
It is better just to say no move actions and then let GMs handle the silliness with common sense.
Or go ahead and allow them to load a crossbow while nauseated as a free action if they have the feats to allow them to load it as a free action. Its not like they have a standard action to make use of it being loaded - and once they do have a standard again they could just as easily have loaded it as a free action on their own turn.
Only fixing one thing here that could already be marked as an edge case vs the really weird "I can't open my hand, or fall over, or mutter 'I'm so sick', or deliberately stop concentrating on a spell, etc" scenarios.
Really just a difference of opinion I guess between as to what types of GM intervention should be needed to provide some form of common sense to the rules. I just feel the FAQ ruling creates more cases to be adjudicated than the other way would have.
Bahahah.. "I can't stop concentrating on a spell.. unless i move 10 feet..."
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Why is this the magic line of the abstraction we can't believe?
A warrior can take a dozen arrows and fight on like he's unwounded but the thirteenth kills him - fine. A first level character can set Olympic records in long jump, high jump, every sprint and distance event - fine. An archer can fire an arrow every two seconds, aimed with perfection at a range of hundreds of yards, for as long as he has arrows - fine. A wizard just forgets how to cast a spell a moment after casting it, unless he memorized it twice - fine. It takes weeks to make the most basic weapons - fine. Kicking in the door to a creature's home, killing it, stealing its possessions - not only fine but fine for a LG character. Bullets can penetrate the strongest armor at 30 feet but not at 35 feet - fine. A skilled marksman being able to load and shoot a blackpowder pistol four or five times in six seconds - fine. You literally can't spot the moon in the sky - fine. But the nauseated condition is where I don't get it.
I've been nauseated a fair number of times over the course of my college life, and I can guarantee you, 100%, that opening your hand doesn't actually take any more effort or time than when you are in perfect health.You are the one going out of your way to make it silly. Your story was the definition of hyperbole.
You think it's silly. Which is fine.
I don't think it's silly. Mainly since i can still do all of those actions just at a slower pace than normal.
I'm willing to bet that you've never suffered the abstracted nauseated condition caused by magical spell or super-natural ability.
Why is this the magic line of the abstraction we can't believe?
A warrior can take a dozen arrows and fight on like he's unwounded but the thirteenth kills him - fine. A first level character can set Olympic records in long jump, high jump, every sprint and distance event - fine. An archer can fire an arrow every two seconds, aimed with perfection at a range of hundreds of yards, for as long as he has arrows - fine. A wizard just forgets how to cast a spell a moment after casting it, unless he memorized it twice - fine. It takes weeks to make the most basic weapons - fine. Kicking in the door to a creature's home, killing it, stealing its possessions - not only fine but fine for a LG character. Bullets can penetrate the strongest armor at 30 feet but not at 35 feet - fine. A skilled marksman being able to load and shoot a blackpowder pistol four or five times in six seconds - fine. You literally can't spot the moon in the sky - fine. But the nauseated condition is where I don't get it.
We overlook those because if we didn't martial classes would be impossible to play (or because there are many creatures that are objectively evil.)
I'm willing to bet that you've never suffered the abstracted nauseated condition caused by magical spell or super-natural ability.I've been nauseated a fair number of times over the course of my college life, and I can guarantee you, 100%, that opening your hand doesn't actually take any more effort or time than when you are in perfect health.You are the one going out of your way to make it silly. Your story was the definition of hyperbole.
You think it's silly. Which is fine.
I don't think it's silly. Mainly since i can still do all of those actions just at a slower pace than normal.
I must assume that, because you put the word magic in the front, it must be stronger than regular nausea then?
How about we just change 'Wizard' into 'You win at DnD'.
I'm willing to bet that you've never suffered the abstracted nauseated condition caused by magical spell or super-natural ability.I've been nauseated a fair number of times over the course of my college life, and I can guarantee you, 100%, that opening your hand doesn't actually take any more effort or time than when you are in perfect health.You are the one going out of your way to make it silly. Your story was the definition of hyperbole.
You think it's silly. Which is fine.
I don't think it's silly. Mainly since i can still do all of those actions just at a slower pace than normal.
I must assume that, because you put the word magic in the front, it must be stronger than regular nausea then?
How about we just change 'Wizard' into 'You win at DnD'.
What do you mean change? It already is.
I'm willing to bet that you've never suffered the abstracted nauseated condition caused by magical spell or super-natural ability.
]]
Never.Going.Back.To.Africa
I've already showcased that all of those things can still be done.
You didn't, actually?
I mean, you said you can crawl while standing up, lol
Misquoting me and adding "lol" doesn't make you look better.
I never said that.
Where's that dead and beaten horse at when you need him...
No, no, no.
MeanMutton already won the thread when he invoked the "magic" argument. We all know that no rule in Pathfinder needs to make sense because, well, magic. Nothing else needs to be said...
/sarcasm
If it was a game I have designed, I could have called 'Nauseated' condition 'Hsdfstesx' and say: when you are Hsdfstesx you can only perform a single Move action in your turn
Most people would complain about that. Firstly, Hsdfstesx fails to simulate any aspect of either reality or heroic fantasy. Secondly, it has a stupid name. Thirdly, it violates the basic and obvious concept that free actions are easier to do than move actions, without which all sorts of other rules don't make sense.
The problem isn't that nauseated condition breaks immersion, the problem is that the rule makes no sense from a rules consistency and style perspective. Once again, is there any other condition, spell, whatever, that allows you to take a Move Action, but not a free, swift, or immediate?
Looking at the history of this sort of thing - there was a time that the staggered condition did not allow free actions in PF. I have it in the 3rd printing - swift and immediate are allowed, free actions are not explicitly allowed. Maybe one could infer that because swift and immediate were allowed, then free would clearly be allowed - however that's not the case around these boards and RAW literalists.
I think that not allowing free actions when the PC has his action list partially trimmed down is being excessively rigid. And given the history of staggered, my guess is the PF design team probably didn't figure people would be denying free actions because the PC was partially hindered. If they issue any revision or clarification, my bet is that free actions will be allowed.
How could you take a swift action, but not a free action while Staggered? Doesn't make a lot of sense does it?
Doesn't exactly make much sense to be able to move 30 feet but not drop to the ground either. But there we are.
Doesn't exactly make much sense to be able to move 30 feet but not drop to the ground either. But there we are.How could you take a swift action, but not a free action while Staggered? Doesn't make a lot of sense does it?
You can Crawl as a Move Action so you can still go prone.
The thing that makes me laugh while reading this and the other thread is that I have yet to read anything broken or even remotely worrisome about allowing free or swifts when nauseated.
A few references to supernatural abilities and lay on hands, which personally, I think makes perfect sense to use in this instance.
Still a storm in a tea cup.
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Given that one of the Mercy options for Lay on Hands is to remove the nauseated condition and that Lay on Hands is used either as a Swift action (on yourself) or a Standard action (on someone else) it seems that this particular FAQ didn't actually receive a very great deal of consideration before being published. I could understand if we were talking about some obscure companion book written by a freelancer three years ago but we are talking about a signature ability of a core class turned into a literal trap option.
Heh.
'This ability allows you to remove the nauseated condition from yourself!'
'Caveat: It can't be used while nauseated.'
Given that one of the Mercy options for Lay on Hands is to remove the nauseated condition and that Lay on Hands is used either as a Swift action (on yourself) or a Standard action (on someone else) it seems that this particular FAQ didn't actually receive a very great deal of consideration before being published. I could understand if we were talking about some obscure companion book written by a freelancer three years ago but we are talking about a signature ability of a core class turned into a literal trap option.Heh.
'This ability allows you to remove the nauseated condition from yourself!'
'Caveat: It can't be used while nauseated.'
You can also eventually use a mercy to remove the Stunned or Paralyzed conditions, which also can't be done to yourself. It's still useful for fixing someone else's condition, this doesn't break it.