| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know if its rogue hate as much as "Sneak attack can be kinda cheese" but thats an issue that crosses decades. Then people see some of the ridonkulous examples of cheese that can be built and attribute that to the class.
Thing is, that can be applied to pretty much any class. Build them a certain way and tada cheesetastic. So its not a rogue-specific thing.
While the Rogue is broken, it's not that type of broken.
|
What's this pathfinder unchained I keep hearing about?
A book Paizo is coming out with containing a variety of potential systems for Pathfinder that aren't tied to the concept of 'backwards compatibility' with D&D 3.5, as well as rules variants they just like and think are cool. These include new versions of the Rogue, Monk, Barbarian, and Summoner.
|
Yeah damage
Hard to Fool (Ex)
Benefit: Once per day, a rogue with this talent can roll two dice while making a Sense Motive check, and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the Sense Motive check.Empathy (Ex, Su): When attempting a Sense Motive check, the investigator makes two d20 rolls and takes the higher result. If an investigator uses inspiration on a Sense Motive check, he rolls the inspiration dice twice and takes the higher result. Once per day, the investigator can expend one use of inspiration to target a single creature that he can see and hear within 30 feet. Upon doing so, the investigator detects the surface thoughts of the target's mind, as if he concentrated for 3 rounds while using the detect thoughts spell, unless the creature succeeds a Will saving throw. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the investigator's level + his Intelligence modifier. If the target fails, the investigator can continue to detect the surface thoughts of the target creature for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 his investigator level. An investigator must be at least 5th level to select this talent.
Not only this, but the investigator also Extracts AND is a better combatant.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was wondering why people are complaining about rogues. I thought as 3/4 BAB classes are concerned, they seem to have a few things going for them. So does anyone have any other reasons behind 'they suck' for them to, well, suck?Because, those that obsess over damage insist they don't do enough damage (I've out-damaged everyone else in the party with a rogue, but I love them). Two-handed weapon rogues are a joy to play.
...In games without skyrocket ACs, or against average to low AC opponents (yes they still exist) rogues are good value. In beginner dm games where not everything is ultra-powered, the rogue won't seem so weak in combat and they have all of that out of combat versatility. So choose your games wisely rogue player.
Many DM's have come to these boards complaining that their Rogue is breaking the game with it's Sneak Attack. Around level 5, the Rogue can really be a killer.
Mind you- it doesnt last. But many campaigns and a lot of APs are played in the low levels. The weakness of the rogue isnt really apparent until higher levels.
|
At which level does the rogue fall apart, we just closed lv 20 in seeker pfs modules. The two dpr winners (single round) were a zen archer and a ninja. The ninja led damage until lv 15 when the archer pulled ahead with a 4 crit round.
My kensai never pulled ahead although statistically he was superior to the ninja, the opportunity and dice never merged for me. That character could roll d20 snake eyes like noone.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know if its rogue hate as much as "Sneak attack can be kinda cheese" but thats an issue that crosses decades. Then people see some of the ridonkulous examples of cheese that can be built and attribute that to the class.
I don't think it's that at all, largely because you can't make cheese-level damage out of attacks that don't hit in the first place.
I'd be very surprised if there's anything you can build on a rogue chassis that qualifies in any way as "ridonkulous."
I don't know if its rogue hate as much as "Sneak attack can be kinda cheese" but thats an issue that crosses decades. Then people see some of the ridonkulous examples of cheese that can be built and attribute that to the class.I don't think it's that at all, largely because you can't make cheese-level damage out of attacks that don't hit in the first place.
I'd be very surprised if there's anything you can build on a rogue chassis that qualifies in any way as "ridonkulous."
Sap Adept + Sap Master can theoretically dish out a ton of damage on sneak attack. However, I find it tends to be one of those builds that looks good on paper, but falls apart in practice. Getting a full attack against flat-footed opponent who is vulnerable to nonlethal damage and sneak attacks takes a lot of work.
At which level does the rogue fall apart, we just closed lv 20 in seeker pfs modules. The two dpr winners (single round) were a zen archer and a ninja. The ninja led damage until lv 15 when the archer pulled ahead with a 4 crit round.
My kensai never pulled ahead although statistically he was superior to the ninja, the opportunity and dice never merged for me. That character could roll d20 snake eyes like noone.
It does not "fall apart" as the rogue is not worthless. It just does not stand up well to other classes that could fill the same role. As for your games when we ask people for details we tend to find house rules in play, lucky dice rolls, or the other characters were not made or played as well as they could have been.
|
|
The list goes on and on. But:
* Rogues' sneak attack damage does NOT multiply on a critical.
Great point! allowing sneak attack doubling on crits would singlehandedly fix the class. Make it a rogue only class feature at level 7 (the gunslinger gets deadshot at level 7 so I figure level 7 is enough of a "wait" time...)
Add some more goodness related to it at level 12, 16 and 20... (backstab x 3 at 12, backstab x 4 at 16, x5 at 20... :) )
But... all the other classes with sneak attack still hit more often.
|
|
His statement was "The weakness of the rogue isn't really apparent until higher levels." So again simply what level is this comment about. Its a number, 1 3 9 15, 20 ..
Id love to have average rolls but certain characters of mine never get there. When I DM this can become hysterical (ex) a yeti fails his stealth, perception, and hide with triple 1,2's and sits down in the center of the floor with his hands on his eyes saying "its just a dream, they're not real."
|
|
Great point! allowing sneak attack doubling on crits would singlehandedly fix the class.I hope that's sarcasm, because that would certainly not fix the class.
Aw come on! It would almost completely fix it. 15-20 crit WITH double sneak? I could live with that. Easily. As I can live now with my rogue with underhanded talent that sneaks for max damage in surprise round.
Great point! allowing sneak attack doubling on crits would singlehandedly fix the class.The list goes on and on. But:
* Rogues' sneak attack damage does NOT multiply on a critical.
I disagree as you still can't mega crit when you're dead.
The rogue needs to be rebuilt from scratch.
I see it like this, imagine a construction site with the chief of construction Don Maastur and his crew.
DM: Hey Joe Barian...odd name you have there, I see you have a shovel please dig a ditch. You also have huge muscles so lift up that I beam and put it over there.
Joe Barian: Ya...
DM: Hey Tom Rogue...wow weird name too. I see you have a hammer and some nails. Please help Joe dig a ditch and then weld that I beam to the other I beam.
Tom: Wait you expect me to dig a ditch with a hammer and then weld an I beam with some nails?
DM: ...yes.
Aw come on! It would almost completely fix it. 15-20 crit WITH double sneak? I could live with that. Easily. As I can live now with my rogue with underhanded talent that sneaks for max damage in surprise round.
I disagree. It would make it more of what it already is, but that's not necessarily good.
Number of damage dice rolled isn't the problem with the rogue. The problem is that it doesn't get to roll those damage dice often enough (because it doesn't hit very well), and that it doesn't survive long enough to roll them.
I mean, I could make a Rogue-to-the-power-of-Rogue that looks like this. The R^R gets 1d3 hit points per level, can not wear any armor or other AC increasing items, cannot use any weapon except a club, and has a +0 BAB at all levels. However, if the R^R confirms a critical on an opponent, that opponent drops to -CON hit points.
That's theoretically infinite DPR.
I think we also agree that it's an unplayable martial class.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nicos, ninjas are literally a comprehensive rogue archetype written in a way that's meant to be easier to read.
Eh, Ninjas are ninjas, they have their own talents. That to me is a pretty big divide. They can also take Rogue Talents but...no.
Speaking of archetypes, only rogues can get free sneak attack when they charge/move. Only rogues can get d8 sneak attack dice, which they can get in several ways.
They get ONE sneak attack on movement (not sure of any easy way for them to get pounce aside from a TWELVE LEVEL DIP in Barbarian)...that's not great. I'd rather have a Beastmorph/Vivisectionist who has pounce and full sneak attack progression and can turn invisible (extracts) buff their to hit (extracts, mutagen), and fly (extracts, discoveries, archetype) so they can hit everyone instead of just ground bound foes for full attack sneak attack.
Like I said, why complain that other classes are better at certain things that rogues do? Either use the rogue because you think that class would work for what you want to do, or don't use the rogue because you think it wouldn't.
If other classes can do everything a rogue can do mechanically, there's no reason to demand that this specific class be "fixed."
The problem isn't that something's better than the Rogue. There's oracles who heal better than clerics, but those clerics have strengths that the oracles don't.
An Alch/Invest/Bard/Inquis/Ranger/etc can do everything the Rogue can do AND MORE, which is the problem.
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight, their point is that even if that was the case, other sneak attack classes could do that just as well. But I think that those sort of comparisons in general just don't make sense as a reason that rogues are a problem.
Underhanded is another nice thing for rogues. Sure, other classes can get it, but not with full sneak attack progression, and not with options like d8 sneak attack damage. This gets even better when combined with things like Sap Master and pounce.
pounce? tell me more about this POUNCE for rogues! (waaaaaaaaaaaant it! :) )
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
SNEAKLANCEPOUNCE!
AM ROGUE AM CHARGING YOU. KEEP QUIET, IS SNEAK ATTACK.
|
|
allowing sneak attack doubling on crits would singlehandedly fix the class. Make it a rogue only class feature at level 7 (the gunslinger gets deadshot at level 7 so I figure level 7 is enough of a "wait" time...)
Add some more goodness related to it at level 12, 16 and 20... (backstab x 3 at 12, backstab x 4 at 16, x5 at 20... :) )
No one commented on my retro dreamvision! surely, THAT would appeal to some? no? do I need to suggest every rogue gets 2 XP for every gold piece they acquire, too? :)
|
|
Did they ever fix Underhanded so that it could actually be used?
half-elf
1- skill focus: stealth, weapon finesse, traits: always threatening2- weapon training (dagger)
3- twist away
4- underhanded
5- iron will
6- combat trick (quick draw)
7- hellcat stealth
8- offensive defense
9- deceitful
10--MASTER SPY
edit: yes! you need bandit archetype for this...
Pathfinder rogue great NPC class, got mislabeled.
I'd still rather play a warrior or expert.
There has been at least 3 topics that I found on Google that ask about how Underhanded is supposed to work. The consensus is that it's literally useless unless you take quick draw and are a Bandit.
|
|
Technically they only need a ten level dip in Barbarian, N. Jolly.
Or a ten level dip in Alchemist for Beastmorph, with Vivisectionist to keep their Sneak Attack up to par... followed by ten more levels of Alchemist.
Please, you're not taking 10 levels of Barb without going the additional two for Come and Get Me. That's like NOT finding a bat to ride like a steed and RAGELANCEPOUNCING everything the gods put in your way, duh.
And the only thing that makes Alchemist levels good...is MORE Alchemist levels.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're using Underhanded, you need Always Threatening and/or Bandit Archetype. Which means you need Weapon Focus. Also Claw Pounce is restricted to +10 BAB and needs Nimble Striker. Vicious claws only applies to claw attacks, and Underhanded requires you to draw a concealed weapon your opponent didn't know about which your claws are not. Sap Master requires Sap Adept and needs to use bludgeoning damage which I don't think claws are.
Please post a build and explain how you do a surprise round with that build.
|
|
There has been at least 3 topics that I found on Google that ask about how Underhanded is supposed to work. The consensus is that it's literally useless unless you take quick draw and are a Bandit.
yes I forgot to add my build above assumes both the bandit and charlatan archetypes simultaneously (although charlatan is not required he he he)
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What? You're complaining that rogue archetypes don't let you do interesting and different things, and then saying that ninjas don't count as a rogue archetype because they let you do interesting and different things.
Gonna assume this is aimed a me.
Ninja is an alternative class, and I'll give it that it's still TECHNICALY a Rogue, I don't see it as a Rogue. Aside from Scout or Knife Master, I don't see any other archetypes getting mentioned. There's that one new talent that lets Rogues use bombs which is pretty nice though.
I very much like Beastmorph/Vivisectionists. I like them better than rogues. But rogues aren't worthless, and if I was playing a vivisectionist I would probably have two levels of rogue for talent access.
Okay, what talents are you taking? I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'm actually curious. What talents are you taking, since almost all of them are pretty garbo.
I disagree with your last statement. I do not believe that any sort of rogue can be completely surpassed in all areas by a member of another class. But arguing about that is pointless, and even if that is true, rogues don't make anything worse. Just don't play them if you don't want to.
I can probably prove this decently easily, I have builds laying around, but it doesn't seem like you'd accept that anyways.
But the 'if you don't like them, don't play them' excuse is old, lame, and really just bad. I don't HATE Rogues, I want to make them better, and only by showing their weaknesses can we see what needs improved. If you just say "They're perfectish", no one's learning anything. The problem is that they're a skill focused class in a game that doesn't care about skills with no innate bonuses to hit and poor survivability.
As for pounce, the easiest way to get it as a rogue is to be a Catfolk with the Claw Pounce feat. This option combines well with Vicious Claws for d8 sneak attack and Sap Master. And the scout archetype. And Underhanded. Lots of things, actually. But wait, no, we can't do that, because rogues are useless.
So a specific race, feat combination and you can now deal with things that you can deal with things that are susceptible to non lethal...wait, does sap master even WORK with claws? Claws do slashing/piercing, and Sappy needs Bludgeoning...
Scout Archetype gives ONE sneak attack a round, as I stated before. That's not impressive, not to mention no attack bonus to make sure that attack actually hits. Not sure about underhanded, but you're getting too defensive here. No one's saying you can't play a Rogue, the short comings of the Rogue are being pointed out, so chill.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So a specific race, feat combination and you can now deal with things that you can deal with things that are susceptible to non lethal...wait, does sap master even WORK with claws? Claws do slashing/piercing, and Sappy needs Bludgeoning...
Actually, claws do Bludgeoning/Slashing.
|
|
So a specific race, feat combination and you can now deal with things that you can deal with things that are susceptible to non lethal...wait, does sap master even WORK with claws? Claws do slashing/piercing, and Sappy needs Bludgeoning...Actually, claws do Bludgeoning/Slashing.
Huh, learn something every day. I stand by all of my points aside from that however, and I really hope the Unchained Rogue isn't garbo.
Ninjas are enough of a significant improvement over rogues that I consider them a different class, despite that technically Paizo rules classify them as essentially a big archetype.
If you consider Ninjas as archetypes and thus Rogues, then I guess you could say Rogues aren't really that underpowered because they have a reasonable archetype, though even that archetype is weaker than most classes.
Yeah, the ninja isn't exactly strong in overall terms. He's just a step up from the basic rogue.
I'm sorry if I came across as overly confrontational. I was just trying to say that rogues have some options that can work well. My point about not having to play rogues is that, if you prefer other classes mechanically, there's no need for an improved version of the rogue class, because you can simply play others. I would like some more options for rogues, but I don't see them as actually being a problem to the game.
I don't really think I'll spend the time posting a build unless you really want me to.
In terms of these things working together:
Claw Pounce and Vicious Claws obviously work together.
With the Bludgeoner feat or a merciful amulet of mighty fists, Sap Master works.
I believe Scout's Charge and pounce work together to get more than one sneak attack in a charge, at least according to what seems to be the consensus on this thread.
There has been some dispute on whether Underhanded can work with unarmed strikes/natural weapons, but I personally don't see any reason why not and some threads seem to agree with me. But even without it, you're still doing a fair amount of damage even not in a surprise round.Sure, this is specific to a certain race and basic build. But its an option, one that I've enjoyed thinking about in the past. There are others, and I'm sure there are many that I don't know about.
I'm just curious when you come online and if you have the feats to get all of that together.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For a simpler concept that doesn't have to worry about Underhanded or getting pounce, just be a Skulking Slayer/Scout with a level in fighter. You can charge and use Bludgeoner/Sap Master/Power Attack/Furious Focus with an earthbreaker, and still use full plate and lots of skills. That's what I mentioned earlier, and I think that there isn't a single other class that can achieve those things equally well. Although from level 5 or so on you could probably also switch to vivisectionist without hurting much. Vivisectionist is just an excellent archetype all around.
I mentioned before, there are a few builds the Rogue does the best. But even the Certified Sneak Attack Every Round builds need to invest heavily on Fort saves or be rendered useless for the whole fight or killed instantly... and if you do, you need to help your Will saves, which you can do with high Charisma and Steadfast Personality, but that still means you are wide open against Curses.
Finally, heavy armor brings massive ACP and low Max Dex, plus it impedes the use of Evasion (or Improved Evasion), which means that if you put points in Dex you get blown off by Fireballs.
I love a functioning Rogue build. I love my Violent Display Sczarni Swindler and I'm currently making a Half-Ogre Savage Critical build which has some promise but doesn't get online until 8th level.
But it still feels like playing EXTRA HARD MODE and a CRB class shouldn't be one requiring full system mastery.
The class itself should be good enough on its own to allow you to spend Rogue Talents in stuff you like, not stuff you desperately need to be relevant.