Core rogue for Rise of the Runelords AP?

[captain yesterday]

Has anyone tried helping, or was it just a jumping off point to start the zillionth argument about Rogues:)
has anyone won one yet?

[Misroi]

They did, cap. I think the general consensus was "If you think you'll have fun playing a rogue, then go ahead and do so."

[Kalshane]

We're nearing the end of book 4 and the party rogue hasn't felt useless. Granted, I'm allowing a slightly tweaked version of the SGG Talented Rogue, but he contributes in just about every fight, rarely fails his tumble checks to move into flanking position (though he has Skirmish, so he doesn't even have to do that to get a sneak off) and even he does his high AC and Mobility means he's rarely hit by the resulting AoO. His Combat Reflexes mesh nicely with the fighter with Greater Trip and his Bleeding Sneak Attack doesn't do a lot of damage but it's still finished off numerous enemies before they could take their next action.

While he doesn't do as much damage as the alchemist or the barbarian, none of the players feels like he isn't pulling his weight.

The rest of the party consists of an alchemist, a fighter (focused on trip and disarm, and despite all the claims I've seen about how trip is useless at higher levels, he trips at least one foe a fight), a barbarian (with Pounce), an oracle and a wizard.

[Ms. Pleiades]

Misroi wrote:

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Im not limiting it to combat.

Out of combat anything with stealth can sneak like a rogue.
Same with fencing, doing the talking, steal stuff, and a ton of other things.

Lets look at those skills.

Fencing/selling/facing- usually cha based...rogues typically dont have more then a 12 in cha...so...any class like paladin, bard, sorcerer, summoner, do it better...just to name a few.

Sneaking- monks, ranger, slayer, investigator, alchemist, wizard, bard, sorcerer...each can do it better by skill or magic.

Stealing stuff- I assume you mean slight of hand...cause just picking something up when no one is looking then any class can do this. Slight of hand hardly ever comes up.

But lets just compare a investigator verses a rogue since they both do the same stats and abilities.

Sneaking- both can take stealth and have s imiliar dex. So they are even out the gate. Wait an investigator can use extracts to do it better.

Facing/selling- same skills...again same till extracts come in.

Stealing- same as above.

Even if your a fan of rogue it is the weakest PC class. Period. Only fan boys will ignore evidence and say a rogue can compete...but they cant.

A lot of your post smacks of "No True Scotsman" to me, but let's take your premise as it stands. Yes, a lot of the classes step on the rogue's toes. But none of them get as many skill points as the rogue. Sure, the investigator can do a lot of those things - but can they do all of the same things as the rogue?

Considering an investigator is going to want to have at least 16 INT in order to get access to all of their extracts, which includes several skill-boosters, that an investigator's strong will save and empiricist archetype mean they can dump wisdom to boost intelligence even further, and that their skill-boosting class feature (inspiration) can be used more often than many of the "Once Per Day" Rogue talents... Yes. Yes they can.

[Tangent101]

As a counter, consider this simple build:

Feats - Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Gory Finish.

Your rogue would be able to intimidate groups of enemies. While they are intimidated, they count as flat-footed for you. Every single strike now counts as precision damage (sneak attacks). And every dead opponent allows you to continue the intimidation conga.

The Investigator doesn't get sneak attacks 'til later, has a lower Dexterity, and once he runs out of Inspiration, he can't constantly sneak attack at a lower level of ability than the Rogue.