Spring-loaded wrist sheaths and table variation


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Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Jiggy wrote:


Quote:
Quote:
Follow me this time?
There's no need for that.
No need for what?

The statement comes across as being patronizing.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

What would have been a better sentence for asking whether my re-explanation made more sense than the first time?

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Can I clarify what a few of you are saying - this is for those of you who say drawing scrolls from a SLWS does provoke:

Does drawing the scroll from a SLWS provoke, and casting from it provoke again?

It seems to me that the scroll is being unfurled twice?

Does drawing a scroll from a SLWS provoke in the same way it provokes from drawing it from a backpack? That doesn't make sense to me.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Jiggy wrote:
What would have been a better sentence for asking whether my re-explanation made more sense than the first time?

Essentially any statement that would make any implied blame (not that there necessarily needs to be blame) for miscommunication fall on the author rather than the reader. "Did I give a better explanation this time?" would be better than "Did you follow me this time?"

"Follow me this time?" can come across as saying "Since you weren't able to follow my intellectual thought processes the first time, I have dumbed it down so that you can comprehend what I am saying."

Of course, it could simply be a simple query, as well, with no implications. But the written word alone is far from a perfect form of communication.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Avatar-1 wrote:

Can I clarify what a few of you are saying - this is for those of you who say drawing scrolls from a SLWS does provoke:

Does drawing the scroll from a SLWS provoke, and casting from it provoke again?

It seems to me that the scroll is being unfurled twice?

Does drawing a scroll from a SLWS provoke in the same way it provokes from drawing it from a backpack? That doesn't make sense to me.

Drawing a scroll provokes.

Reading a scroll provokes.

It doesn't matter from where you draw, the provocation still happens.

A normal usage of a scroll can provoke twice in every instance that you use a scroll, except when you have an item or ability that negates one or both of the potential provocations.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Jiggy, do you believe that obtaining a dagger from a "non-spring-loaded" wrist sheath provokes an attack of opportunity?

1/5

Avatar-1,

I would agree with Andrew Christian on the provoking. There are many things about RPG rule systems that make no real life sense, and many things that are inconsistently applied in an effort to emulate real life. One way or another someone's going to be unhappy with some aspect of the rules.

Chris Mortika,

I would say that drawing a dagger from a non-spring loaded wrist sheath does not provoke because the rules state that drawing a hidden weapon does not provoke. (Table 8-2, page 184 Core Rules).

Shadow Lodge 3/5

I don't know, there's a lot of assumptions made here. Table variance is going to keep happening here - that's fine I guess.

To be clear, all the talk about provoking at all is coming from these sections:

Wrist Sheath, Spring Loaded wrote:
This item works like a standard wrist sheath, but releasing an item from it is a swift action. Preparing the sheath for this use requires cranking the sheath's tiny gears and springs into place (a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity).

...which doesn't mention any provoking. But:

Wrist Sheath wrote:
This is a sheath designed to be strapped to your forearm and hidden under a long sleeve. The sheath can hold one forearmlength item, such as a dagger, dart, or wand, or up to five arrows or crossbow bolts. As a move action, you can bend your wrist to cause some or all of these items to drop into your hand (provoking attacks of opportunity as normal). You have a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to oppose the Perception check of someone observing or frisking you to determine items in the sheath. You can only wear one wrist sheath per arm.

What's less clear is whether the intent of "works like a standard wrist sheath" is meant to include that whole wording as RAW or if it just means "this is the general idea of what the item is". It's not clear if it's taking into account that it's now a swift action, and whether that means it still "provokes as normal" or not.

Move actions to draw scrolls provoke "as normal", so that makes sense.

Swift actions almost never provoke unless it's specified in the text of the class feature/feat/item/etc. I can't think of an example where it does provoke where it's not written that it does. The Actions in Combat table doesn't specify any swift actions that provoke.

I can see it being ruled either way.

1/5

Ambiguity is inherent in any complex rules system. I generally prefer consistency over real life emulation.

I don't think that the general but uncodified idea of swift actions not provoking is salient enough to overcome the written rules about drawing items and provoking. However, I do agree that "drawing" anything from a readily accessible location should generally not provoke. But then provoking is an artificial mechanic in any event.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Chris Mortika wrote:
Jiggy, do you believe that obtaining a dagger from a "non-spring-loaded" wrist sheath provokes an attack of opportunity?

Ooo! Ooo! Pick me!

Jiggy would respond with, "No".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The only way a scroll could be mounted in a wrist sheathe is that it would have to be tightly wound up and then bound, otherwise it would unfurl and jam in the sheathe. Then once it's popped out, you still need two hands to cut the binding and unfurl it.

These conditions essentially eliminate any benefit there would be from storing one there in the first place. the only way to qucikly access a scroll would be from an open case pocket on a chest bandolier.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Nefreet wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Jiggy, do you believe that obtaining a dagger from a "non-spring-loaded" wrist sheath provokes an attack of opportunity?

Ooo! Ooo! Pick me!

Jiggy would respond with, "No".

As would I.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Chris Mortika wrote:
Jiggy, do you believe that obtaining a dagger from a "non-spring-loaded" wrist sheath provokes an attack of opportunity?

*double-checks text, just in case*

Nope. A scroll or potion, yes, but not a dagger.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

LazarX wrote:

The only way a scroll could be mounted in a wrist sheathe is that it would have to be tightly wound up and then bound, otherwise it would unfurl and jam in the sheathe. Then once it's popped out, you still need two hands to cut the binding and unfurl it.

You could have it work like one of the toy guns where you pull the trigger a flag pops out, unfurls with the word "bang" on it.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

LazarX wrote:

The only way a scroll could be mounted in a wrist sheathe is that it would have to be tightly wound up and then bound, otherwise it would unfurl and jam in the sheathe. Then once it's popped out, you still need two hands to cut the binding and unfurl it.

These conditions essentially eliminate any benefit there would be from storing one there in the first place. the only way to qucikly access a scroll would be from an open case pocket on a chest bandolier.

This misses the point of the discussion so far.

There are any number of flavorful reasons why <item X> wouldn't work in a SLWS.

In the interest of eliminating table variation, where one GM says "No" because of "Reason 1", and another GM says "Yes" because they dismiss "Reason 1", just imagine these sheaths as modifying the economy of the action you would have been performing without the sheath in the first place.

Dagger from a boot? No provoke.

Dagger from a sheath? No provoke.

Scroll from a backpack? Provokes.

Scroll from a sheath? Provokes.

That eliminates the table variation.

The Exchange 5/5

trollbill wrote:
LazarX wrote:

The only way a scroll could be mounted in a wrist sheathe is that it would have to be tightly wound up and then bound, otherwise it would unfurl and jam in the sheathe. Then once it's popped out, you still need two hands to cut the binding and unfurl it.

You could have it work like one of the toy guns where you pull the trigger a flag pops out, unfurls with the word "bang" on it.

I've been waiting for someone to say something like...

"that would never work! Clearly the paper would jam in the barrel and rip, ..."

Scarab Sages 4/5

Ferious Thune wrote:

AHEM

(It seemed worth repeating)

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Nefreet wrote:


In the interest of eliminating table variation, where one GM says "No" because of "Reason 1", and another GM says "Yes" because they dismiss "Reason 1", just imagine these sheaths as modifying the economy of the action you would have been performing without the sheath in the first place.

Dagger from a boot? No provoke.

Dagger from a sheath? No provoke.

Scroll from a backpack? Provokes.

Scroll from a sheath? Provokes.

That eliminates the table variation.

Of course not everyone even agrees if a scroll or potion can be used in a wrist sheath in the first place.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Again, that misses the point.

You're coming up with "Reason #X" why "Item #Y" wouldn't work.

Not all GMs will agree or disagree with your logic.

Eschew these "reasons", and it all makes sense.

And it puts us all on the same level.

No more, "I think that thing is two inches too long to fit".

Just think in terms of action economy.


I would just paste a BoL scroll on the inside of my character's shield, but apparantly the glue used for that costs some 5000 gold.

That must be some amazing glue.

-j

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I count only a 1000gp cost, there...

And Sovereign Glue is 2400gp.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

Jiggy wrote:
What would have been a better sentence for asking whether my re-explanation made more sense than the first time?

::Hmm sneaks into rules conversation, to answer Jiggy's diplomacy question.::
:

One of the biggest issues with the internet is that we lack body language context to soften or clarify tone. I know that "Follow me this time?" was meant as a simple query, but I can see how others might misconstrue it as condescending. "Follow me" implies that there is a "you" with a comprehension problem.

A better phrasing might be:

"Is this more clear?" -- Implies that comprehension problem lies in the wording, not the listener.

"Have I clarified this?" -- Takes the onus of the original communication problem on the writer.

Or even better: "Does this help?"

Does this help, Jiggy?

Hmm


Nefreet wrote:

I count only a 1000gp cost, there...

And Sovereign Glue is 2400gp.

I'm guessing you didn't click the link?

-j

Sovereign Court 5/5 *

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jason Wu wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I count only a 1000gp cost, there...

And Sovereign Glue is 2400gp.

I'm guessing you didn't click the link?

-j

A +3 shield is normally 9,000gp +, so there is only an additional 1000gp more on the cost than a normal +3 light wooden shield.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jason Wu wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I count only a 1000gp cost, there.
I'm guessing you didn't click the link?

I'm counting 1000gp because I clicked the link ;-)

Grand Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Silbeg wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Just load them on the tablet itself on an SD card.
Which, for an iPad, still doesn't work.

You can get an SD card reader for an iPad, but I'm not 100% sure you could open a PDF. But I just keep them loaded on my iPad. I actually keep them loaded in Google Drive, but off line synced to my tablet, but if my battery dies I can jump on my phone and pull it up.

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