For a spacefaring campaign with the scope the size of spelljammer, I'm polling for ideas on a the balance between magic and technology -- just how much technology should exist, and at what point does it overshadow magic insofar as the spacefaring setting is concerned.
This assumes that the information given in Distant Worlds insofar as the environment is concerned is considered cannon.
What do you think would ideally be included in such a setting and what definately should be excluded?
Umm....probably look at the technology guide and Iron Gods campaign for understanding on how to strike a mechanical balance. Outside of that, if you're asking how to balance the setting between magic and technology...I'm not sure.
Honestly, the only way that makes sense to me is limited magic high technology. Because plentiful magic obviates the need for technology for space travel. What with being able to teleport between planets and such, although that is very high level magic.
I haven't gotten too far into Iron Gods yet, so I cannot comment on the setting in which the technology came from except to say that Iron Gods setting has very limited technology access and the normal level of magic you would expect in Pathfinder.
I'm not looking for anything Golarion specific, although Golarion based technology could easily be used.
I'm searching for ideas on the level of science/tech that would ultimately overshadow magic in fantasy space?
Should all "scientific/technology required items -- like say ships that are air tight, or ranged ship to ship weapons have a "magical explanation" or should that be relegated to science/technology?
Science/Technology compliment eachother, and unless your tech is so advanced that it does all the same stuff as magic only easier magic and tech make for a more interesting and varied setting.
I'd allow very distinct options for magic and tech solutions to most problems. You can make a scientifically accurate air tight space ship, but magic allows you to sail a galleon through the heavens with a magically contained bubble of air around it.
You can mix and match too. Science doesn't really have an answer to the sci-fi problems of inertial dampening or gravity on a ship, but these would be reletivly easy problems for magic to solve on your otherwise high tech ship. Conversly, that space galleon might be sporting Laser and plasma cannons along with a huge mass drive, aka. Rail gun, in place of black powder cannons.
As I said, I would personally opt for high technology and limited magic, for a space campaign. Otherwise, it seems like it would be significantly easier to just use interstellar transport rather than actually flying a space ship (whether its air tight or a galleon in an air bubble).
To me, the only setting in which space travel makes sense is one in which arcane magic is not advanced enough to allow travel between planets.
And just for a reference: on Golarion we have the elfen gates. Which are actually teleportation gates to the nearby planet of Castrovel. The ancestral home of Elves. Yes, elves are aliens.
The only magical interplanetary travel I know of is a level 9 spell or artifact level magic items. Even in a very high magic setting those would be super rare. The typical magic accessable to people would be far far lower.
The only magical interplanetary travel I know of is a level 9 spell or artifact level magic items. Even in a very high magic setting those would be super rare. The typical magic accessable to people would be far far lower.
True, but it's not exactly as though there are hundreds of space ships either. I still feel like the existence of even a few 9th level spell casters or a couple of artifacts removes the need to have space ships.
Would you rather spend weeks/months/years traveling in a ship between planets or use the powers of a well paid spell caster to teleport you between places. Hell, it's probably still cheaper than the technology you would need.
Entirely your idea.
If you want a high magic+high tech setting, just point to the fact that, even if magic can do the same things tech can, tech is still neccesary at the same level, because you can do it all with 1st level experts, while having an archmage or high priest sitting around for every large-scale infrastructural thing you want done is unfeasible.
This is because a new 1st level wizard has to win against a thousand foes if he wants to ascend to archmage.
There's simply too few high-level casters to make an impact on the scale that technology can do.
Or at least, it's a decent excuse for having high tech and high magic in the same world.
Spellcasting is something you pursue if you want great personal power, while governments all over pour founding into technology, even if they have access to high-level mages.
That's up to you really. Worlds have a large variety of flavor, some will be more tech, and others less. It all depends on what kind of story you want to run.
Assuredly. What I'd like to have is sort of a space opera akin to Star Wars -- with less technology and more magic.
One thing I don't like about modern based campaigns is the lessening of importance of melee in combat -- if you watch anything 20th century or later, everyone stands in one spot trading ammunition. I'd like to retain the importance of melee in combat if at all possible (it may not be possible).
What do you think should be the interplay between magic and technology (ala psionics/magic transparency) of any, or should it depend on mechanics?
Can magical-ish items (say spellbooks) be digitized or is it strictly analog?
Can technology always duplicate magical effects all by themselves (even wishes?). What limitations do you think should be there?
Great suggestions overall.
Yeah, you only really see melee combat in situations where one or both parties are not expecting a fight, or one of them forced it upon the other because they specialize in it.
I think this is entirely dependant on the general genre/feel that you're trying to portray, although in the context of using most of what pathfinder as a system offers I think space-faring Pathfinder (or Spacefinder if you will) should have technology as separate from magic but enchatable. Sure there will be the weird people who go into outerspace with magical trees that fly but in the system magic is sufficiently analyzed enough for magic to be nearly the same thing.
I think the biggest obstacle is that mechanically there isn't enough melee weapon options even among third party products making a lot of classes and playstyles obsolete in a world of mass produced laser beams and spell bullets. If deflector shields, mecharmor and gravity swords become a thing then we have a different story.
If I were to list examples of how much science and magic should co-exist I'd point to Flash Gordon, He-man or Thundercats.
Need melee in your Sci-Fi go the Dune route. Personal Force fields make ranged weapons impractical.
Actually, I think when Dune force fields are shot with Lasers they go nuclear, so maybe not go all the way Dune.
The point being that you could easily make force fields that reduce all energy damage or whatever you have going on with ranged combat to the point that combat become melee focused.
If you want ranged combat to be more dynamic, well you probably need a different system, but barring that. You need to enforce range increments, require actual movement to receive dex mod to ranged defense, make cover essential, and find some way to make aiming a risk one has to take by exploring themself.
On to high level casters, no way the rare few level 18+ casters in the universe are going to spend their life as an intergalactic transport system. They have better things to do, and can't transport the kind of cargo to obsolete spacecraft. Unless interstellar trade isn't a thing happening in your universe.
This is really based on personal taste.
What I would do is decide which one is more prevelant, and which is more powerful.
Also decide how accessible each one is to the average person, and go from there.
I think that magic outweighs technology on a small scale/personal basis (it makes individuals very powerful against other individuals), but it doesn't have the capacity that technology does on a large scale such as with trade. The only question is where is the fulcrum of the balance between magic and technology.
What do you guys think about "magic" being the fuel of technological devices -- such as interstellar engines, and in turn, these engines power the ship scale weaponry. Or perhaps being able to charge personal technological gear -- or should there be a hard line separating the two?
I feel like mentioning btw, that under the definition of technology, that magic is in-fact technology, and would be used as if it were any other technology, such as electricity being a cheap way of powering things and not relying on the energy source being people.
in essence in a setting that has equal parts magic and tech, magic would basically be like how magnetism is understood or gravity, or electricity.
BASICALLY, technology is at it's core us leveraging the physical world's rules on how stuff works to make things we want to happen, happen. magic is no different and would be mass produced and organized as much as electricity, or even the process with which people make car tires, or how aerodynamics works, or how to start a fire on a cold day.
like E = MC squared, is technology, Pythagorean theorem is technology, making a fire is technology, making a toaster is technology, how a gun fires is technology, and so is how a bow fires. everything a human has created or understood (including ideas and methodologies) is a form of technology.