What to do about Ven Vinder?

[Da G8keepah]

My group is still fairly early in Burnt Offerings. They have not gone to the Glassworks yet and have not received the letter from Tsuto to Ameiko but all of the other parts of act 2 are complete (with a few other NPC interactions thrown in for good measure).
I had Shayliss approach the party ranger and he accompanied her back to the general store where they were found by Ven Vinder. Things didn't go so well for the ranger. His social skills are fairly lacking so I had Ven attack him. I rolled a natural 20 on Ven's first attack, confirmed the crit and did exactly enough damage to bring the ranger to 0 hit points.
A few days after this, the PCs were exploring Sandpoint and a few of them decided that they wanted to restore the ranger's honor (and they were upset about being barred from the general store for associating with him). Things went south pretty quickly there too. The barbarian and witch goaded Ven into another fight. The barb only hit Ven once, but he left a nasty wound before running out.
Later that night, the PCs decided to go bar hopping. They wanted to hit up each tavern/inn and now are fairly drunk. The session ended with them finding out that Ven has a stash of rare and exotic alcohol in his basement and now they are on their way to the general store, hoping to break in and steal some potent liquor.
What do you think would be a good way to handle this? I don't want to steer them around but I can think of several ways this could go poorly. First off, Ven is somewhat important to the beginning of chapter 2. They already have him pretty pissed off and if he catches them breaking into his store, he is even less likely to be helpful to them in the next chapter.
It seems very likely that they will be caught and probably arrested (at least if they don't kill the guards who try to). Overall, they have been doing a good job of ingratiating themselves with the townsfolk but breaking and entering could easily turn that around quickly.
Worst of all, they might kill Ven which could easily end with one or more PCs dead and the rest shipped off to Magnimar for trial.
How do you think I should play this? I don't want to just give them a free pass to break in and take whatever they want but I also don't want to see the campaign come to screeching halt.
TL;DR: Ven Vinder hates the party and they are about to make it worse by drunkenly breaking into his store. What should I do?

[Aasol bin Soladi]

There are a lot of ways this could go, but I would suggest having Ven Vinder meet them with city guards at the door to his store and before they've done any wrong have him indicate that he had it on good authority (someone at the Rusty Dragon overheard their planning) that they were headed his way. He realizes the good that the adventurers have done for Sandpoint by ridding the down of the goblin threat, but also is harboring a grudge.

He offers them an ultimatum. They can pay him twice the value of the wine they were about to steal, he will 'sell' them the wine and clear their good names and all will be forgiven or they spend a night in jail and sober up, courtesy of Sandpoint's finest. Otherwise, the city guard will escort them to the city gates and a warrant issued should they return. If they choose option 1 or 2, all is forgiven (for now) but...

Skinsaw:

rest assured Ven will be quick to accuse them at the beginning of the Skinsaw Murders.

[ElyasRavenwood]

Player's often hate to be led around by the nose.

If they do break in steal the alcohol, and get caught and arrested by Hemlock and his deputies, well, It isn't the end. If they kill deputies, kill Vin, and the survivors get arrested and shipped off to Magnimar for a trial and a hannging,

Well then it may be time to roll up new characters.

If it is something less serious, say breaking entering and stealing the alcohol, then maybe while they are "cooling their heels" ....Perhaps the elven ranger might find some sort of monster thread or dungeon. and the party are "sentenced" to go and clean out this dungeon and end the monster threat.

:

I remember when I played, I had an elven druid. After being lured down stairs by Sheyless to deal with a "rat" problem, she dealt with his "pants" problem. Luckily, my character made is perception check, with a big penalty, to hear footsteps on the upstairs floor boards at the head of the stairs to the basement. My character, whose hands were still free, managed to make an extremely difficult concentration check to summon a giant rat at the foot of the stairs. The rat ran up the stairs and startled Mr. Vinder. This gave my character and Miss Sheyless to begin "poking" around for rats. Mr. Vinder was very suspicious of my character but there was the rat.

When I ran it, one of my teenage players, a 15 year old male teenager, was more then excited to have his character go down stairs to take care of Sheyless's rat problem. Unfortunately his character didn't made the perception checks to notice Mr. Vinder's approach. His character did hear the " what the @#%@ are you doing to my daugther?" The player looked at me quite crestfallen and dejected.....and said "Mr. Vinder's going to beat my character isn't he?" I nodded." Oh man this is just like real life"

In the Carrion Crown game I am in 3 out of the 5 characters got killed while exploring a dungeon. We made new characters, and then integrated them in with the surviving members of the party. It has worked.

Well good luck with your players

[Latrecis]

Hmmm, are the players themselves drunk? How did they come to the idea that outright burglary would be a good choice?

I would suggest having Hemlock and a couple guards cut them off at the pass - perhaps alerted by interested citizens. Hopefully they'll think carefully before crossing the law. If not, introduce them to the rules for non-lethal damage and a night in jail (along with a hefty fine for drunk and disorderly.)

Of note, Vender isn't that helpful or important to the beginning of book 2. He's more angry victim than anything else. If he's still angry at the group he makes their life a little bit harder.

[Da G8keepah]

I already had a guard approach them on their way to the general store but gave only a small indication that he might know what they are up to. Hopefully they will remember this. Sheriff Hemlock is currently on his trip to Magnimar but I think having a few guards show up at Vinder's might be a good idea. I could maybe introduce a deputy or something similar.
Some of the players were a little drunk. They decided that since their characters were getting drunk that they should have a few drinks as well. Of course, the players will not still be drunk at the beginning of the next session so perhaps clearer heads will prevail.

[Sarcastro]

I say let the PCs run with it...straight into a bunch of Gluttonous temptations.

[Tangent101]

I say distract the players with an actual encounter. Have they dealt with the goblin hiding under the house yet? Have a hysterical woman carrying two children appear in the street and beg them to save her husband. Or you could have the group spy goblins sneaking in the street... and rather than have the halfling tell them about Ameiko being missing, have them see the goblins enter the Glassworks and then start that encounter early.

They're bored and getting into trouble. Sidetrack them with the adventure itself.

[Latrecis]

Tangent101 wrote:

I say distract the players with an actual encounter. Have they dealt with the goblin hiding under the house yet? Have a hysterical woman carrying two children appear in the street and beg them to save her husband. Or you could have the group spy goblins sneaking in the street... and rather than have the halfling tell them about Ameiko being missing, have them see the goblins enter the Glassworks and then start that encounter early.

They're bored and getting into trouble. Sidetrack them with the adventure itself.

Good idea. Another option along those lines: have them see Katrine sneaking out of the store. She's off to another tryst with Banny Harker from the Mill. Hopefully they can resist harming either of the two lovebirds. Perhaps even gain some favor with Ven by rounding up one of his wayward daughters.

[JohnHawkins]

As long as they stick at drunken burglary even if they get caught no real problem. A lot of peoples opinion of them lowers particularly business owners, other peoples opinion of them improves (sadly).
They spend a night in the cells sobering up, get a fine , or maybe just a stiff warning never to get caught again committing a crime in town and community service go out and kill some goblins. Maybe some bars ban them.
Actually getting into serious trouble for committing a first drunken burglary is incredibly unlikely, (from personal experience none drunk, none first time burglars do not get into serious trouble again sadly).
Of course if they violently but using none lethal force resist arrest , then add on a bigger fine .
Using weapons or killing anyone throw the book at them they crossed the line from the sort of thing that happens to the sort of thing that is unacceptable .
Of course even drunk they may be stealthy enough to get away with it if Ken is asleep , it is incredibly easy for a sleeping sober person to not notice burglars a floor below , and they are probably stealthier than real burglars and Ken is probably not a lot more perceptive than real home owners

[RuyanVe]

Another thing could be they do the burglary and meet Jubrayl's gang shop lifting poor old Ven. Might be interesting to see who is going to frame whom for what...

Completely from my point of view and how I run the campaign:
On a more general note, it looks to me that your group has missed the whole purpose of Sandpoint as the(ir) basis for the whole AP.
You mentioning they will only get caught if there are any guards left alive rings to me all wrong.
I run this as a typical "PCs as heroes" campaign; the idea to rob somebody in town (drunk or not) never crossed anybodies mind (IC or OOC).

Ruyan.

[Da G8keepah]

Mostly they are playing the heroes. They are getting along with most of the people in town and enjoy helping them out.
There is a homebrew alcoholic drink that is very potent that we like to incorporate into campaigns some times. One of the players asked about it a couple sessions ago and, before Ven was introduced, I decided that since the AP mentions him having a collection of rare alcohol that he would be the one to have it.
Now that the players are looking for it I decided to stick with my original decision. They are determined to get it and since things are so bad between them and Ven they assumed (rightly) that if he is unwilling to sell them basic supplies that he would be unwilling to share his private stock.

[Kalshane]

Wait, the barbarian wounded Ven? He struck an unarmed shopkeeper with a weapon? Am I reading that correctly? If that's the case, the law should have intervened well before drunken burglary entered their heads. Fist fights are likely to be dealt with (if at all) by tossing the involved parties in cells to cool off. Actually attacking unarmed citizens with weapons is likely to get the PC(s) in question tossed in a cell until Hemlock gets back and decides what to do with them.

[Skeld]

This is the kind of activity bored adventurers engage in. They need something adventurous to do to focus their priorities and take their minds of foolish drunken shenanigans.

-Skeld

[Matthew Bellizzi]

I agree it's time for the goblin in the closet. Also they should have drunk combat penalties just for giggles.

[Ms. Pleiades]

Toss one up for having them notice a pair of Goblins around the Glassworks.

[Da G8keepah]

The last thing I had them do straight out of the AP was talk to Shalelu, the elven ranger. The day before, we did the boar hunt and the encounter with Lonjiku in the Rusty Dragon so I only had the one encounter left and decided to do it in the morning. The plan was to introduce the halfling maid with the letter from Tsuto the next morning but the PCs figured that since they had a few hours (of in-game time) to kill, rather than "fade to black" and start the next day, they would spend some time roleplaying and exploring the town some more.
I really don't think it's an issue with boredom as the players made it clear they were enjoying themselves and Sandpoint up to this point. I've given them a few chances to hand-wave the passage of time but they all seem to prefer playing out every waking hour as much as possible. I don't want to force them to rush past this point as it is important to the story that they start to see Sandpoint as home and as a real living town.
I've been playing Ven as a real ass. Ven was immediately belligerent when the PCs arrived at his shop. He was the first to threaten violence but the PCs refused to back down and things escalated. The barbarian was attacked by Ven two or three times before he even drew his weapon. He swung once, connected, and then immediately left.
It would be fair to say that the guards are keeping an eye on this conflict but haven't found enough reason to arrest any PCs yet. I will probably say that the guard who spoke to them noticed they were headed in the direction of Ven's store and so gathers a few more guards in order to intercept them.
Also, yes, I have made it clear that they are suffering penalties to their rolls for being drunk. I came up with a system off the top of my head. Fort save for each drink, save DC is dependent on the drink, +1 for each drink they have already had. Each failed save equates to -2 to all rolls as well as AC and CMD. 5 failed saves gets them blackout drunk and they lose control of their character until they sober up.

[Bellona]

The GMG has something to say about drunkenness (available here), although it doesn't specifically cover "blackout drunk". Maybe that condition could be treated as a poison effect of some sort?

[captain yesterday]

i just double the penalty for blackout drunk (-4) another fun way would be to treat as fighting in the dark, but i haven't tried that yet:)