Hi folks,
having seen Lini in action and having done a little thought-play about what happens if she acquires some power feats, she seems ridiculously overpowered. Adding d4+[number of power feats] to all die rolls as long as you have an animal ally in hand is way more powerful then anything any other character or card has to offer.
The ability would still be very very strong if it readed "You may recharge an ally with the Animal trait to add d4[+*] to your check."
This really seems like a misprint.
There is no errata to that... it works exactly as written.
Assuming you're in Rise of the Runelords, the card is correct.
It has been discussed extensively, and the general agreement seems to be that it's very powerful, possibly overpowered, but there hasn't been any official errata.
Having to keep the ally in hand can slow her down in terms of multiple explorations, and she can have issues with combat (doesn't start with a weapon, very limited Divine Attack spells in RotR), so personally I don't think she's broken, but there's no question that she's good.
Lini walks a fine line between being overpowered and sucking. Lini would really suck if it was changed to recharge. I play Lini and there are times when Lini loses her animal ally and doesn't see it again for a very long time. If the ability were changed to recharge, the ability could hardly even be used.
I think Lini is definitely one of the strongest overall characters in RoR, but I'm not sure that's a reason to nerf. In adventures 4-6 there are other characters that are much more dominating imo.
I'm talking Rise of the Runelords and I don't have cleric class deck so I don't know Heggal.
Having to keep the ally in hand can slow her down in terms of multiple explorations, and she can have issues with combat (doesn't start with a weapon, very limited Divine Attack spells in RotR), so personally I don't think she's broken, but there's no question that she's good.
Well, I don't think she is slowed down in explorations because she can recharge all excess animal allies for extra explores, which is huge on it's own. Plus she has some blessings (which she can heal on her own).
There are decent Divine Attack spells in RotR and because her progression is bonkers she will keep up with the arcane bombers in damage plus have guaranteed recharges.The Math (wis+3, animal ability+2, card feat: weapon) by the end of advanture deck 2:
Lini will have an average 14 on her divine checks, with holy light this means about 21 average damage (28 vs undead/outsider) with 97.5% recharge. Inflict will do 17.5 damage with a guaranteed recharge. Melee without a weapon+discard is an average of 10, taking a weapon as first card feat is very useful, so a 14.5 is doable if you draw your weapon. And of course the ridiculous averages for stat checks:
Str: 7 (10)
Dex: 8 (10)
Con: 9
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 9
In comparison: Specialized Ezren/Seoni have an average of 11.5 on their arcane checks, dealing 18.5 damage on ray spells, 22 damage on lightning bolt.
Valeros will have 11.5 base on his melee checks, but will have better combat because he can often recharge his weapons.
Summary: If you go full caster, you miss one damage to the wizard, and ~2.5 damage to the fighter if he can't recharge and you draw your weapon. On all secondary rolls your averages are 4.5 points (an extra d8) higher! That's better then a permanent blessing of the gods for all checks!
This gets worse the more the game progresses as you will become wild warden and get another +2 to all dice and invest excess skill points in strength. Ezren on disintegrate: 26.5, You with holy light/swipe: 26/26.5. Valeros base meele: 12.5, you: 14.5 (+1 strength included)(at this time both will be proficient with weapons because you need to pick 3 powers before wild warden). Your unblessed secondary skill checks are almost as good as the others blessed 2 times.
Sure you do have a slightly smaller hand size (effectively 4 until mid adventure path 5) but that doesn't make up for all that power.
[edit because of ninja]@ Jason S:
Well, for card feats I would probably go weapon - ally - ally - spell - [item or spell]. That way you get a backup for your spells and then rechargeable extra explores plus backup animal allies in case you loose your hand. Your discard ability+weapon is enough against the usual monster, 3 attack spells will be sufficient against the stronger opponents. I'd go 2 heal and something else (like augury or strength) for the rest of your spells.
Holy Light is great - if you can get it. But you still need to encounter it (and for a character with a decent stat to encounter it - you can wave bye-bye if Valeros finds it)
Inflict is dreadful - admittedly it's less dreadful for Lini with her animal boost than for others like Kyra, but it's still very weak - noticeably worse than even the basic arcane spells.
Arcane casters will have access to better and better spells, both direct attacks and clouds. In divine, apart from the one Holy Light, you've got nothing until Swipe comes along.
In S&S it's a very different picture- RotR Lini in S&S could be pretty crazy, especially if she finds Charm Animal, with all the new Divine Attack spells
1 weapon in your deck when it isn't your preferred card-type is of fairly limited use.
Holy Light is great - if you can get it. But you still need to encounter it (and for a character with a decent stat to encounter it - you can wave bye-bye if Valeros finds it)
Inflict is dreadful - admittedly it's less dreadful for Lini with her animal boost than for others like Kyra, but it's still very weak - noticeably worse than even the basic arcane spells.
Arcane casters will have access to better and better spells, both direct attacks and clouds. In divine, apart from the one Holy Light, you've got nothing until Swipe comes along.
Umm? I did the math for you, the better arcane combat spells are compensated for by Lini's broken progression math. Ezren's Disintegrate deals as much damage as Lini's Holy Light/Swipe. Ezren is the one who needs to hurry to find better spells as mid advanture 4 Inflict will deal more damage then Lightning bolt.
Side note: Holy Light is in deck 1, Swipe in deck 3, Disintegrate in deck 5.
She's overpowered, but it's a cooperative game. Don't play her, or change the power yourself if you don't like it. No need for errata.
She's overpowered, but it's a cooperative game. Don't play her, or change the power yourself if you don't like it. No need for errata.
Sure! Don't get me wrong, I'm not smacking the cards against the wall because of it. The game is great fun!
It still seems like an oversight. Changing the wording to "recharge" puts the character's strength in line with the others. There have been erratas for issues with way less impact on the game (like the Detect Magic recharge value).The cooperative nature of the game doesn't mean that such issues shouldn't be reported and fixed.
She's overpowered, but it's a cooperative game. Don't play her, or change the power yourself if you don't like it. No need for errata.
Agree, do whatever you want in home games, but if you really believe that's true it still causes the following problems.
1) It's still a problem that RoR characters are allowed to be used in Organized Play. It's only a matter of time before the Druid Class Deck comes out.
2) That makes Heggal OP as well.
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Actually, early on, Heggal is still weak compared to Kyra as a healet for the group. He needs a lot of support combat-wise. Heggal got eatten by sharks early on in OP. The player switched to Kyra who can hold her own with combat.
Note: They mighy not continue allowing RotR characters when they introduce new class decks. RotR Lem is pretty good, too.
There have been erratas for issues with way less impact on the game (like the Detect Magic recharge value).
Please don't conflate those two issues. Detect Magic's recharge value wasn't an errata, it was a editing mistake. It was never meant to be 14.
If PFSACG sees issues with Lini's reveal power (which by the way Agna also gets, but only after she gets the Beastmaster role), then it'll be errata'd for PFSACG. Just like Radillo's Magic explore power potentially causing an infinite loop. Just like Restoration was errata'd.
For the record I think Lini's borderline, and I don't think the CD Druids would ever be printed with a 1d4 +2 on every check ability on their base card - 1d4 +1 is a maybe. Most likely the signature ability will be "recharge an animal instead of discarding it" and it'll appear in the role cards, which limits their power since it only appears in the second half of the game.
On the other hand, I don't think that spell power in combat proves it. It's actually the d4 +2-3 on every other check that I use way more often and what I actually like Lini for. It's what allowed me to put 2 points in Dexterity before I put 2 points in Wisdom. You only need to beat the average most of the time, and the later scenarios have things you can't just blast your way to oblivion. I meant, if it's only combat checks you're worried about, you'd complain about Valeros as well since he provides the same power.
Theryon: I think the issue with Heggal is that he has 3 spells unlike Lini who has 6. Which means he needs to be handed a weapon to be effective (and that's hard to do in OP). I'll give him a whirl in RotR and see if he comes up with the same issues that Lini does.
(Also, in my group game my friend's Lini never really felt that powerful; in fact he's lost fights severely several times, I wonder what the difference is.)
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Theryon: I think the issue with Heggal is that he has 3 spells unlike Lini who has 6. Which means he needs to be handed a weapon to be effective (and that's hard to do in OP). I'll give him a whirl in RotR and see if he comes up with the same issues that Lini does.
(Also, in my group game my friend's Lini never really felt that powerful; in fact he's lost fights severely several times, I wonder what the difference is.)
Yeah, I think Heggal would be better in RotR. In organized play, he's not really that great if you count on him as sole healer plus having to stand on his own. Considering 1 weapon and 3 spells, you need others to pick up the slack until he levels more.
I meant, if it's only combat checks you're worried about, you'd complain about Valeros as well since he provides the same power.
My point was, that Lini is pretty good at meele, very good at divine combat and still gets the equivalent of a free blessing on all checks. The combination of being very good at everything is what makes Lini overpowered.
After I wrote my last post, I had another idea: Maybe the word "combat" didn't fit on the card and was somehow cut. Having that ability apply only to combat checks would be another reasonable errata choice as well imho. It would probably be closer to how the tabletop druid works (being reasonably good at blasting, healing and melee).
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Nope, it wasn't a "combat didn't fit", as has been said before, it's written as intended. She certainly isn't great at melee by default. She has to discard a card to be good at melee, more than the simple reveal real melee characters have. She CAN be good at anything if she's willing to sacrifice space in her hand for it, and CAN be great at anything if she's willing to sacrifice more space in her hand and start discarding cards frequently.
I've played through the whole first adventure with her and a couple other characters. She isn't overpowered, and it's already been said that she works as intended, as powerful as that can be at times. She's just a character that has the ability to do really well if you're willing to make sacrifices.
She certainly isn't great at melee by default. She has to discard a card to be good at melee, more than the simple reveal real melee characters have.
Remember she is a caster, and one of the best casters in the game. Her melee is certainly better then every other caster's in RotR.
I've played through the whole first adventure with her.
Try her with two power feats. Animal allies in hand will essentially say: "Reveal this card to add one die to a check to acquire a boon or close a location or a melee combat check or divine check or to recharge a spell or to defeat a barrier."
And this is in addition to already fairly good abilities.as powerful as that can be at times
Those times are always as long as you don't loose your hand.
She's just a character that has the ability to do really well if you're willing to make sacrifices.
That sacrifice is one card slot in hand.
Yes, she does have to sacrifice more if she also wants to be good at melee. But that essentially means she has Seoni's ability but for melee in addition to the best divine spell casting, rechargeable extra explores and a free blessing for everything else that turns up. Also remember she can heal those discarded cards.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
RotR Lini is either overpowered or not, for a given value of the word. Most of the characters fall so close in line with each other that the relative power level of Lini is simply more strongly felt. It doesn't show that the Devs messed up on Lini so much as it shows that they did great with everyone else.
While I'd say that Lini is definitely super-strong, she is hardly in need of any serious errata. She could be tweaked, sure, but it's not NEEDED, and the Devs only errata based on power level if really needed. Just look at how long it took to convice them about Restoration and Radillo! But this is a good thing, I feel. They do it if it's needed, but don't rush to it so we can keep our beloved builds. They're awesome, trust them.
Now, one thing to consider is that Lini is basically at -1 hand size and ally in her deck for this ability. She can't afford to play the animal, so she doesn't get to use it's ability (unless it's a Cat or Eagle or something, and even then she can't use explore abilities or anything) and she has to leave it in her hand without playing it, leaving (at default) only 4 cards to mess with. So she's got all the downsides of the slow, "armored" characters, without the upside - she still can take more than 4 damage at once. Fixing this problem via a power feat requires you to slow down on building her d4+x power. Just something to consider that helps balance her. Oh, and if you're going the spell route for combat, 4 cards to play with stinks - you don't have much space for explores and combat cards.
And let's be clear here - if Lini's ability was recharge, she would be below the curve instead of in line with it. Particularly since she only has three allies to begin with. That's a particularly weak power to base a character around, especially since it's in direct conflict with her other power - you can only use one of them per ally you draw, which, again, you won't draw many of.
I think Heggal isn't felt as much as RotR Lini for three reasons - The smallest is that he's not seen as much to begin with, being newer and from a class deck. The second is that he caps out lower than Lini, with a max of d4+1 unless you go "Life of the Party" role, which still caps at d4+3. The last his card list - it's harder for him to capitalize on this strength when he has to take so much armor (shouldn't need it in theory with the extra buff the power adds) and his low number of spells (amazing card type, particularly considering how easy this power makes recharges).
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If you are set on altering her power level, I do have a suggestion. The Lini in the S&S Character Add-On is generally weak, and part of it is a card list that doesn't particularly build to (either) Lini's strengths. But the S&S Lini would greatly benefit from having RotR Lini's card list, and RotR Lini's power would be brought closer to the curve by taking S&S Lini's card list. So, if you're interested in balancing the current Lini's unofficially, I would strongly recommend this route.
If you like this idea but don't want to buy S&S Lini just for this, here is her card list:
Weapon
1 []2
Armor
1 []2
Spell
4 []5 []6
Item
1 []2
Ally
4 []5 []6 []7
Blessing
4 []5 []6
The cool thing is that it fits RotR Lini so much better, I feel. It gives her a weapon, which works well with Lini IF she has the d4+x ability that RotR has but S&S does not, it gives her another ally to start with which RotR needs but S&S does not, and it helps balance her by limiting her spell potential and giving her an armor, which she really doesn't need due to the consistency her d4+x gives.
But again, it's not really needed. Some characters are just going to be a little better.
Not that anyone is saying this, but since it was something I messed up, I thought I'd bring it up: Her power to recharge an animal ally and her her power to discard a card to change her Strength or Dexterity to a d10 don't interact with each other. She only gets to recharge an animal ally that she discarded to play. If she discards her animal ally to increase her strength or dexterity, she isn't playing the animal ally.
Again, no one said they were doing that, but it seems relevant to the discussion and was something I messed up once.
Lini definitely feels powerful, sometimes ungodly so, but like Orbis says, the only serious errata they've issued is for characters that destroy the game. Orbis is sorta famous (infamous? :D) around these parts for his Resto stuff. Radillo doesn't even need that! Pre-errata, forget an augury and detect magic cycle, she could basically clear out a whole location every turn just using an attack spell and haste.
On average, I'd say S&S characters (and the class decks) tend towards much more powerful (or maybe more accurately, way more diverse and less specialized) with the requirement of more mental bandwidth. We played through RoRL with Flenta and Radillo and completely obliterated it.
Yeah, if you REALLY want to see Lini being broken, take S&S Lini in a 2+ character game and get her to acquire 2 Toads and 2 Restorations. That combo is just dumb. I wrote about it here, if you want an explanation.
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I don't know that I'd say they're stronger so much as better designed. The notable RotR characters were a lot of the time sub-par except when built just right, at which point they were pretty powerful (let's look at Kyra and her blessing recovery feat, shall we?). The newer characters tend to be solid all around, often having multiple builds close in power level.
Generally speaking, I also feel the role cards are more balanced with each other in S&S, allowing for more options. The problem in RotRL is that there were mostly clear winners (Weapon Master vs Guardian Valeros, for example), or in one case, almost no difference (Seoni).
That's what I was trying to say, better worded.
Yeah, definitely. A lot of RoRL characters had roles where you were like "why would I ever pick that?" Though I'm sure some people would contradict whatever roles I thought were "best, only," a lot were just dead weight. And even within the roles, the character progression was enough that you got all the feats you really wanted besides one or two. Like, you got Kyra's infinite Sarenrae blessing, who needs the undead killing powers? Merisiel's a kickass acrobrat. Once you're putting evaded encounters back on top of the deck, you're golden.
S&S leads me to a lot more hemming and hawing, and still feeling like I'm leaving something behind. I took +2 to Damiel's potion blowy-uppy power, ignoring Weapon proficiency to do so. Seems crazy! But I haven't found anything that makes me really crave proficiency yet. Hopefully that choice doesn't bite me in the butt later!
Yeah, definitely. A lot of RoRL characters had roles where you were like "why would I ever pick that?"
Did anyone ever play "Charlatan" Lem?
Yeah, definitely. A lot of RoRL characters had roles where you were like "why would I ever pick that?"Did anyone ever play "Charlatan" Lem?
Psh, no. Dat d4+x to self! Mmmm...
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There's just not a lot of appeal to it. Auto-recharging mental, multiple feats to get +2 to Henchmen/Villains, and an 8th hand card are all just okay.
Yeah, definitely. A lot of RoRL characters had roles where you were like "why would I ever pick that?"Did anyone ever play "Charlatan" Lem?
Yes. Firedale2002 took on the task of compiling the reporting data. You can check it out here.
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She certainly isn't great at melee by default. She has to discard a card to be good at melee, more than the simple reveal real melee characters have.Remember she is a caster, and one of the best casters in the game. Her melee is certainly better then every other caster's in RotR.
I've played through the whole first adventure with her.Try her with two power feats. Animal allies in hand will essentially say: "Reveal this card to add one die to a check to acquire a boon or close a location or a melee combat check or divine check or to recharge a spell or to defeat a barrier."
And this is in addition to already fairly good abilities.as powerful as that can be at timesThose times are always as long as you don't loose your hand.
She's just a character that has the ability to do really well if you're willing to make sacrifices.That sacrifice is one card slot in hand.
Yes, she does have to sacrifice more if she also wants to be good at melee. But that essentially means she has Seoni's ability but for melee in addition to the best divine spell casting, rechargeable extra explores and a free blessing for everything else that turns up. Also remember she can heal those discarded cards.
I don't know that I'd say her melee is better than the other caster's. Her die is higher only if she discards cards, and that's not even a weapon or something to give her extra dice. It's arguable.
I'm not sure where "first adventure" came from, that's supposed to say "whole adventure path", not sure what happened there. I've played her through to the end, and maxed out the feats on that power. Yes, it's good, but again -- you're keeping cards in your hand to do it, instead of other powerful cards. As for "in addition to fairly good abilities", I personally find her bear form power worthless and the recharge animals somewhat helpful, but decent at best.
All your statements of "this is better" or "this is too powerful" all revolve around personal opinion and / or accepting having to take up space in your hand for the ally to stay always. That's fine, it's a great power, but she has her downsides for those powers even if you don't acknowledge them.
"That essentially means she has Seoni's ability but for melee" Not even remotely close. The powers work similarly, but the power level is very different.
1d10, only on Strength and Dex, pumpable to +2 w/ Fire using 3 feats and only pumpable in one role
1d12+1d6+2 w/ Magic and Fire right off the bat for any combat. 2 feats to +2, and both roles allow up to +4 and Acid with 3 more feats
One of these things is not like the other (and blows the other out of the water)
Anyone can heal those discarded cards, she's just able to do it more frequently. Again though, you're taking up card space in your deck to do it. You can do it frequently and use up several cards for curing instead of more useful spells and allies, or have it once or twice a game and have card space for more useful cards.
Lini's biggest drawback? I've seen her completely screwed just from 2 bad rolls in one scenario. She's a "Go big or go home" kind of character. She's powerful, but it doesn't take much to ruin her.
Lini's biggest drawback? I've seen her completely screwed just from 2 bad rolls in one scenario. She's a "Go big or go home" kind of character. She's powerful, but it doesn't take much to ruin her.
This part is all I care to comment on (I agree with much of what you said).
This stance surprises me, as I would say that Lini is the least dice reliant character in the entire game, her ability adds to her consistency so much. It should be generally hard to whiff with all the straight bonuses she adds to her checks, and she can (and should) pack cure[s] in her deck. That, and her hand size isn't particularly dangerous.
I'd say her biggest weakness is the need to have that animal - Traitor, for instance, is abhorred by Lini. Although, saying this, I guess if your point is that whiffing a combat check and losing her hand costs her the animal, which is painful, then I see where you're coming from. But that should only hurt a turn or two.
Well, alright, if you build her around a dex weapon I can see that as well, but you should really build her around strength, not dex. By the time all the bonuses are said and done, d4 base vs d6 base doesn't make a big deal to Lini, and she can use her strength to fight without a weapon if need be.
You're still needing a Druid class deck, huh?
Always. :D
Build her around Strength? Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma all the way for me. Never touched the rest I don't think.
you would build her for strength/dex if you were going to base her combat on weapons instead of spells, that's all.
She's not dice reliant, but she's very card reliant. You find a monster that penalizes your deck, and not your hand? It gets very nasty, very fast.
I don't see how she's worse off than other characters there.
As the resident player who plays Lini the most out of all of us and knows all the ins and outs, I trust Orbis' judgement on Lini's power level.
Mechalibur is also correct in the fact that all the RotR characters had little differentiation in their roles - I excuse it because the first set is always the set to introduce "simple" mechanics (mostly static bonuses to stuff). But the fact is that static bonuses tend to be really powerful anyway.
Anyways, I did play Heggal this weekend through the beginning of RotR; my initial impressions are that Heggal tends to get his hand "stuck" at certain points in the game. He really wants to have an Ally in his hand for the bonus, but that conflicts with his heal ability because he can only use Allies for it unlike Kyra or Tarlin (both can use blessings as well as their card type). And he only gets 3 Allies, so having 2 in hand at the right time is tough. He needs at least 1 of his 3 spells be a Cure if he's to be a main healer. And cycling his Armors is way more important than any other ability that the Armors can bring, so I ended up giving him a Magic Shield to replace his Chain Mail.
I think you can have him be a dedicated healer or be a dedicated fighter, but being both is hard.
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She's not dice reliant, but she's very card reliant. You find a monster that penalizes your deck, and not your hand? It gets very nasty, very fast.I don't see how she's worse off than other characters there.
I see her as a combo character. Most characters could lose several cards before they just drop their hand and say "Wow I need heals or I'm screwed". She hits that point quicker than most when you build her epically powerful.
As the resident player who plays Lini the most out of all of us and knows all the ins and outs, I trust Orbis' judgement on Lini's power level.
Mechalibur is also correct in the fact that all the RotR characters had little differentiation in their roles - I excuse it because the first set is always the set to introduce "simple" mechanics (mostly static bonuses to stuff). But the fact is that static bonuses tend to be really powerful anyway.
Agreed. I may disagree with Orbis on general strategy with Lini, and most characters (I play very odd playstyles in 99% of games, enjoy it, and do it well), but when it comes to general knowledge of Lini, he's a good judge.
To me, a lot of the characters had similar roles, but a few had very different ones. Sajan, for instance. He either became an honorary Junior Ranger, or he became the drunk bum in the alley who thinks everyone walking by is planning to kill him.
I don't know that I'd say her melee is better than the other caster's. Her die is higher only if she discards cards, and that's not even a weapon or something to give her extra dice. It's arguable.
Sure, she has do discard, but the game is mostly about having the right ability at the right time. So the ability to be decent at melee when she needs it is huge for a caster. I personally did see other characters burn cards much more quickly (e.g. Seoni and Seelah).
Even though it's only one weapon in the deck, she can (and imho should asap) pick up a weapon.Yes, it's good, but again -- you're keeping cards in your hand to do it, instead of other powerful cards.
I didn't see many cards in the deck more powerful then +1d4+4 to a check, unless under very specific circumstances (skill checks, put I really hate those cards as they are imho way too situational). I didn't see chapter 6 thoroughly so far though (only spoiled some stuff).
Yes, that animal ally takes a spot in your hand. But so does a codex or a blessing. And that animal ally essentially is a free blessing all the time.
@Orbis' nerf suggestion:
You could be right that making the ability "recharge" is too much of a nerf.
I think I'd rather limit her reveal ability to combat checks only (or combat+perception checks for fluff). It kind of makes sense with the way animal companions work in the PnP Pathfinder. Mechanically it won't change her combat prowess and she would still be incredibly versatile for many checks (if she is willing to discard: d10, d10, d8, d6, d10, d8 + decent amount of blessings, really good!).
As the resident player who plays Lini the most out of all of us and knows all the ins and outs, I trust Orbis' judgement on Lini's power level.
Agreed. I may disagree with Orbis on general strategy with Lini, and most characters (I play very odd playstyles in 99% of games, enjoy it, and do it well), but when it comes to general knowledge of Lini, he's a good judge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whTwa66oENw
I think I'd rather limit her reveal ability to combat checks only (or combat+perception checks for fluff). It kind of makes sense with the way animal companions work in the PnP Pathfinder. Mechanically it won't change her combat prowess and she would still be incredibly versatile for many checks (if she is willing to discard: d10, d10, d8, d6, d10, d8 + decent amount of blessings, really good!).
I still think it's unnecessary to nerf her.
Anyway, where do you draw the line? How are you going to nerf Damiel when you start S&S? He's as good as she is (in S&S), but there's no cut and dry fix to him. Or what if you see another character's power, and decide that's too good as well? It's a slippery slope.
Anyway, where do you draw the line? How are you going to nerf Damiel when you start S&S? He's as good as she is (in S&S), but there's no cut and dry fix to him. Or what if you see another character's power, and decide that's too good as well? It's a slippery slope.
This is without having played S&S: I took a look at him, there is no ability that strikes me to be nearly as powerful as Lini's animal ally reveal. He seems to work similar to Lini, only without the ridiculously high stat rolls, without combat spells and without rechargeable extra explores. His combat without a weapon is 2 better on average though but Lini has combat spells which are way better anyway.
Mid adventure path 2, Lini is a good divine caster while having the same averages as d20, d20, d18, d16, d26, d18 for stat rolls (Lini's work a little different ofc, this is to emphasis the issue). There is no other power in RotR that grants nearly as much benefit for one power feat, all the other powers are situational. Just because other characters might be too powerful in their adventure path doesn't mean this shouldn't be addressed.
If you nerf her power to combat checks only, she is still the best divine caster, still decent at melee if she is willing to discard, still has rechargeable extra explores and still has the best ability to pass random stat checks of all characters. Sound powerful enough for me.
Lini's power is situational if you have a party with more than one player. I found Lem's power far more influential since it affects the whole team (and yes, I know it requires a recharge).
Yeah, Lini can seem really powerful. But play with her for a few adventures and you will see her weak spots. If she consistently discards for the str/dex bump then she will need a lot of cures. So until she gets a weapon, she can struggle with combat. If she loses her animal ally, then things can go south quick.
So from my experience playing her thru the first 3 adventures of Rotr and the experience of other players, I would say that she can be really strong but sometimes actually not so good. Sajan and Seoni also have amazing powers, imo, but weak spots too.
Her discard to get d10 ability is actually abysmal. I mean, it's better to have the option than not, but discarding a card just to get up to average weapon stats before static bonuses (like +2 for melee)? No, Lini is actually pretty bad without her ability. With it, she's one of the best characters, but that's how it goes. And she's only the best in terms of raw stats. She has a great card list, and a great skill set with the d4+x ability, and an okay power for recharging animals. Everything else about her is mediocre or downright bad. Looking at powers, she doesn't get extra explores, draw more cards, help her friends, turn random cards into spells, prevent cards from being buried/banished, recover cards from hers or any one else's discard pile, scout, nothing. All she's got going is raw power. Yes, you can do much of this by adding certain cards to her deck, but you can grant raw power to other characters as well. They should (and have) tone back on giving similar powers to other characters, but she is far from the level of craziness that warrants a power-level errata, as the bar has been set by Paizo.
It should be enough to see that, out of the entirety of the community, no one else has chimed in and mentioned that they think she deserves an errata as well.
Well, for a game that is mostly about winning random stat rolls and combat, having more then twice the average on those stat rolls then anybody else is not "situational", it's the exact opposite and that's what breaks her imho.
For combat, her spell combat is the best in the game backed up by decent melee.
Generating extra explores for recharges is actually a very strong power imho.
Saying that she can't do anything else feels kind of redundant as she can already do pretty much everything (she is also o.k. at helping others with her blessings, much better then e.g. Ezren).
It should be enough to see that, out of the entirety of the community, no one else has chimed in and mentioned that they think she deserves an errata as well.
There are posts about her being overpowered, there is only one (imho questionable) example of a character that has equal power. I would bet a hundred bucks that if we resolved a statistically significant amount of random encounters from RotR, Lini would defeat/aquire about 50% more of them then everybody else, and still 30% more if we set up some kind of reasonable help scenario (certain help from other characters available).
Whether or not that requires an errata is debatable, I certainly enjoy the game the way it is. Since it's not competitive it doesn't break the game. But I do believe tuning her down a little (like making that power only apply to combat checks) would improve the game and make the character more interesting since there wouldn't be such a clear winner for power feat investments.
I think your posts are getting into the realm of theorycrafting and while that can be good sometimes, you're ignoring the actual play experiences of someone who has played that character a lot. You're also making conjectures based on only looking at the character in a vacuum (Damiel).
Explore velocity (that's the term I use) is actually very important in a game. Some of that can depend on the cards you have.
How far into the game have you played?
Explore velocity (that's the term I use) is actually very important in a game. Some of that can depend on the cards you have.
I like that term. That's certainly not something Lini has a lot of, being limited to blessings and her allies -1 (although they do recharge); she has nothing like Haste or reusable Potions of Flying, nor even a large usable hand to work with*.
There are workarounds, granted - I like to up hand size with feats and Restoration, and actively avoid acquiring cards so as to cure back my blessings, but she's no Ezren**, for instance, that's for sure.
Gah, all these comments as to why Lini is NOT broken almost hurt me as a Lini fan. >.<
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*Remember she's always at -1 hand size and that non-Sphere combat spells give a poor return on number of combats per hand card
**Haste, explore again on acquiring magic, draw power if he plays a spell and has a spell on top of his deck
Well, for a game that is mostly about winning random stat rolls and combat, having more then twice the average on those stat rolls then anybody else is not "situational", it's the exact opposite and that's what breaks her imho.
Your looking at Lini in isolation for solo play.
I said the power is siutational because you can only use it on your turn. Lini has very limited abilities to help teammates. When I use Lem, I end up using Lem's powers an a higher percentage of critical roles than I do when I use Lini.
In practice, Seelah's power almost as effective buy the time you reach the second half of the campaign. Lini's power's really aren't disproportionately more powerful than other characters.
It's actually S&S Lini that ends up with "explore velocity." Now that I've got the power to put discarded animals on top of her deck I routinely have 4 explores a turn with her. The tricky thing for S&S Lini is using those explores productively.
That's the exact problem I had with her - she can't do anything when she explores (hyperbole). I was playing her through RotR and ended up going, "Screw it, I'm going to make her a Resto / Aid / Cure bot and not even explore."
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S&S Lini has a rocky start, but I'm doing pretty well now(in AD 3). Over half of encounters are aquatic or animals, so she very often has a d12 Str/Dex for the price of a recharge. I've given her weapon prof, an extra weapon card, and +2 Str so she is generally rolling d12+weapon+2 before any blessings/kitty cats (for combat) which is acceptable if not great. She starts decent at Fort and Survival which helps with a lot of noncombat checks.
I think she would lose a lot playing Runelords simply due to the much lower proportion of aquatic banes.
Gah, all these comments as to why Lini is NOT broken almost hurt me as a Lini fan. >.<
It's all good - I don't see anyone saying she's bad, nor is she B A D in a too good way, you know?
Well, for a game that is mostly about winning random stat rolls and combat, having more then twice the average on those stat rolls then anybody else is not "situational", it's the exact opposite and that's what breaks her imho.Your looking at Lini in isolation for solo play.
I do, otherwise it would be hard to compare her. In terms of helping other characters she's actually fairly decent. Not like Lem or Harsk but she still has Blessings and is the best character for recharging stuff like mass cure.
Another though on "the other posters don't point her out as overpowered" argument. Threads about wizard>sorcerer or casters>mundanes over at the PnP forums usually spawn a lot of "there is no issue" posts too.
It really comes down to how people perceive game mechanics, I'm with the "there is an issue" crowd.
The PnP issue bear not relevance to this debate. And, no offense, but their is no '"there is an issue" crowd' on Lini. There is just you.
I would highly encourage you to play multiple games with several different characters rather than rely solely on theory craft. Yes, Lini's dice rolling ability is very strong, particularly for solo play. But it requires a huge investment in feats. And, in practice, I don't find it vastly superior to
Kyra's ability to place blessings of Sarenrae on top of her deck
Damiels ability to recharge alchemical cards
Lem's ability to boost roles
Alhazara's ability to scout
Jirelle's ability to reroll two dice on basically all checks
Feiya's ability to crush banes
In my experience, Lini isn't a great character for group support. She doesnt have the ability to directly and reliably boost allies (Harsk, Valeros, Lem) and she doesn't have a way to reliably get back blessings (Kyra, Seelah). And that's before we get to the S8S and class deck characters.
Don't get me wrong, Lini is very strong, but your suppositions don't match the play experiences of myself and a host of other experience players.