Help me build a Bardacle


Advice

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Okay, so I was suggesting the following to Greenteagamer for a bard/druid hybrid:

Hmm wrote:

There is a Shelyn feat that progresses bardic performance for clerics and oracles, but there isn't one that does the same thing for druids. On the other hand, you could be a bard 1/nature oracle X and still have a druidic feel...

Hmm

Edited to add: Found it! Take a look at the feat Divine Expression. I've been eyeing that one with the idea of creating a bardacle for PFS -- just not sure what mystery I want to play with, though nature is really tempting.

If you like wildshape, you might want to look at lunar mystery as well, though dark tapestry is kind of interesting as well for its many forms revelation.
Hmm

It occurred to me that this could be my route to a bard with an animal companion. One of the things that I am considering for PFS would be a bard 1 / nature oracle X who rides around on a wolf. (I realize that this would have to be a small character.) I'd love for it to be able to charge things. I am seriously considering going with monstrous mount feat later to exchange the wolf for a griffin, but I am bugged that it would not be able to fly until level 7 -- even for small characters who can cast ant haul. *sigh*

What weapons can I do? What races would you recommend for races, spells and feats?

Hmm


I don't know too much about Oracles, but I take it a Nature Oracle has a restriction on the animal companion....so no Roc for your small character to fly around on?

Dark Archive

PRD wrote:
Bonded Mount (Su): You gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal mount. The creature must be one that you are capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium oracle can select a camel or a horse. A Small oracle can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if she is at least 4th level. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using your oracle level as your effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence score of at least 6.

Yeah, you'd have to get the DM's okay to use anything other than the animals listed here.

That said, Monstrous Mount would indeed give additional options.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This would likely be for PFS. So no special animal substitutions. I am also considering lunar oracle, but nature is currently winning out for me.

1) more intelligent animal -- IQ 6 would know an absolutely ridiculous number of tricks.

2) the critter that appeals to me most on the lunar list is the tiger, and I already am playing a sylvan sorceress with a tiger. I do not want to be known in PFS as the lady who only plays characters with tigers.

3) wolves are still pretty fast, and their trip ability is kind of interesting, and if I go blind/lame dual-cursed I could legitimately argue that it is my service animal.

So what are good feats and weapons for a bard that charges into battle?

Hmm

Dark Archive

Lance proficiency might be worth it if you intend to charge around on wolf-back most of the time. Beyond that, a sling/crossbow, a couple daggers, and probably a morningstar (best simple weapon~).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Would a spear work for charging?

I've never played a melee character before, so please forgive me if this is a stupid question.

Hmm

Dark Archive

You can, yes. It only does normal damage unless you take Spirited Charge, though.

If you have a Lance, though, it does 2x when mounted, and if you are using a Lance + Spirited Charge, it does 3x.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A half-elf Bardacle could always take ancestral arms instead of the skill focus in order to be proficient with the lance.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ah, but then I would have to ride a horse or a camel. Getting them into dungeons is tricky.

Hmm

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Never mind... I've just discovered that the feat does not progress bardic performance fully. If I want the animal and bardic performance, I may just have to go evangelist cleric. At least then I could get a ROC.

Hmm


My suggestion was going to be Evangelist with Animal Domain. I wouldn't recommend spending much resources beyond using a lance. Building up to spirited charge really takes a martial build for the feat progression. Also, Rocs make excellent companions. I'd suggest a reach cleric type build (the lance isn't a great reach weapon unless you can get a charge) and focus on summons (which would all benefit from your song).

Silver Crusade

@ Hmm: Here's one pet approach that works well for an evangelist cleric. Roc has good synergy with this approach & works especially well for a reach-style cleric. Like your spouse plays now.

This sort of character will be deeply and utterly feat starved. Thus, it's generally not an option to use any feat-intensive combat style. Maneuver builds won't work, DEX-based trickery is not an option, archery won't work, and lance-charging is right out. You lack the feats to pull off an exotic combat style while also maintaining core competencies. Because this type of character is so feat starved you will want to plan your entire build.

You get the most combat effectiveness, for the fewest feats, if you use reach tactics. Just wield a longspear. No feats at all are required for this combat style to work. Desired combat feats, to be good at this combat style, are: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and possibly Paired opportunists. Just STR 14 is sufficient to be quite combat effective, because of all the buff options. You can pump combat prowess as little or as much as you want. Diminishing returns kick in after the first few combat feats, and when STR rises above 14 but below 18.

You want to save most of your feats for Bard stuff or Cleric stuff. Lingering Performance isn't useful beyond the first few levels, as you won't run out of bardsong. There are lots of terrific feats you'd like to have. A few especially good ones are: boon companion!!!, improved initiative, flagbearer, various metamagic feats, channeling feats, all summoning feats, etc. Basically, there are way more terrific feats than you have room for. That's why you are so feat starved.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Magda --

Can you show me an actual build with the feats you'd pick? And how does a Roc wield a polearm, anyway? I'm having trouble visualizing this.

Boon companion would be of course part of my build. Flagbearer would be lovely, if I could make it fit.

Hmm

Silver Crusade

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Start with an Evangelist Cleric (of Horus, Gozreh, Erastil, or lots of others) with the Animal (Feather) Subdomain or the Animal domain. Below are three versions: a Fighty version, a Summony version, and a Hangover version.

In each case your Animal Companion is a Roc, which you can ride. The roc threatens at reach, just like your longspear. That's why I call it a 'polearm pet': it's mechanically similar to a humanoid wielding a polearm. You both have Paired Opportunists. Thus, both your AoOs are always +4 to hit. The roc can use this bonus on, for example, a trip attempt at reach, so lack of Improved Trip is not a problem.

Fighty version
STR14+2 DEX14 CON14 INT10 WIS14 CHA10
Feats: Combat Reflexes (Human), Improved Initiative (1st), Power Attack (3rd), Boon Companion (5th), Paired Opportunists (7th), Lunge (9th), Divine Interference [11th]
Traits: Armor Expert, Fates Favored
Comments: Dump INT and CHA for more STR, if you want. Unbuffed, the pair of you are comparable to a single polearm fighter. Fully buffed you become terrors on the battlefield. Fully buffed at 5th level, under ideal circumstances, you two of you can inflict ~250+ HP in a round with no critical hits. Often the roc will trip & you will attack the prone foe.

Summony Version
STR10 DEX10 CON14 INT10 WIS14+2 CHA10 (+10 free build points, use as desired )
Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration)[1st], Augment Summons [Human], Paired Opportunists [3rd], Boon Companion [5th], Sacred Summons or Superior Summons [7th], Open [9th], Divine Interference [11th]
Traits: Reflexive, Open
Comments: Great battlefield control. Your summons will all be extremely effective, and your Roc is quite capable in combat.

Hangover Version.
Channel negative and choose some nasty variant channel for AoE crowd control
STR10 DEX10 CON14 INT10 WIS14 CHA16+2
Feats: Selective Channeling [Human], Flagbearer [1st], Paired Opportunists [3rd], Boon Companion [5th], Quick Channel [7th], Versatile Channel [9th] & buy Phylactery of Positive Channeling, Divine Interference [11th]
Traits: Sacred Conduit, Open
Comments: Overpowered battlefield control. Selective negative variant channel potentially twice a round to lock down whole clumps of foes. Pet trips anything that saves versus your channel. Flagbearer further improves your excellent buffs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One of the things that I was considering with this was concept was doing a 1 level dip in hunter at level 1. I know that it is considered wrong to multiclass casters, but here is what I think that dip would get me:

1) access to the roc as an animal companion from level 1;

2) spell-completion access to druid and ranger spells, in particular the all-important carry companion spell so that my companion can come with me;

3) martial weapons;

4) handle animal and ride as class skills;

Here is what I think I would lose:

1) a level of spell casting;

2) a level of BAB;

3) perhaps other cool stuff that I haven't thought of yet.

What do you think?

Hmm

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I was posting at the same time as you, Magda!

I like the hangover cleric build the most so far, but I can see that it would have trouble on the melee end. (Of course, the reason it appeals to me is likely because it doesn't dump charisma... I have trouble with the thought of dumping charisma. I like social skills.)

However, I can see how effective the melee build might be. Bret plays a reach cleric, and I think that the trade off of wisdom for strength was a good one for his character.

Thank you. You've given me lots to think about.

Hmm

Silver Crusade

In each case your 5th level animal companion will get AoOs at about +12 to hit, before you add buffs. You are the best buffer in the game. If you can somehow finagle Truestrike, or even if you just fully buff up, then your companion can trip spiders & dragons.

Flight from 1st level is nice, although you may find that logistics issues prevent it from being super-useful until about 5t level. That's when you are 'supposed' to get access to flight. You'll also want to be a small race.

You are welcome. Have fun with it.


::Casts Summon Magda Luckbender Spell::

Hey Magda, this is Hmm's Hangover Evangelist Cleric.

I'm going to be playing her in a 5th level Play-by-Post game set on the Razor Coast (a third party, piratey version of Hawaii.)

You provided the initial build for the Hangover Cleric, but I wanted come advice on leveling and magic items.

1) Where do all attribute bonuses go?

2) What is my first attribute booster for this build? Is it charisma?

3) As far as I can tell, the Roc does not get reach until it reaches level 7. To take advantage of paired opportunists, would I have to have it in front of me while I attack the foe from reach with my spear?

4) My DCs on my spontaneous casts that come with Evangelist will just suck. Do I ever consider those spells in my plans?

5) What are your favorite spells for a low wisdom cleric with a high charisma build?

6) Other recommended items? I intend to get magical spear, enchanted mithril shirt, and an attribute enhancer. Anything else that you might recommend with 10.5 K to spend?


Magda, are you sure roc companions get reach at all?

They become large, but large creatures are usually either tall or long. Gargantuan rocs have a reach of 15 feet, so they are apparently long, not tall. And large long creatures, such as horses, generally only have a reach of 5 feet.

I went through the list a while back and posted here a list of animal companions that seem to have 10 foot reach.

It seems as though the only way to have a flying animal companion with reach is to have a pteradon or a quetzalcoatlus.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I realize that it's not a definitive source, but hero lab indicates that they have reach at level 7. I've actually been trying to find another source for this information.

Hmm


This is news. Do you know if they list all large animal companions as gaining reach, or just some of them?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would have to double check, but I believe it is just some.

At any rate, if Rocs do not get reach, than this affects my build choices. I may have to forgo paired opportunists entirely, or pick a different critter.

Hmm


In PFS play, had another player get the Hosteling property on a tower shield to store a Roc, for places the animal could not go.

Medium character, so this was possible with a large animal (Roc), but if I ever played a character with an animal companion, I'd look to save up some money to get Hosteling put on my armor or shield, to avoid the problem of "wolf can't climb up the rope to get to the top of the cliff face".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am making an arrangement with one of the other players (a wizard) to add the spell "Carry Companion" to his spellbook at my expense. I am also agreeing to recompense him at standard spellcasting rates every time he winds up casting it for me.

I would have just gone with a pair of scrolls, but then discovered that his archetype, The Scrimshaw Fetishist, does not allow casting from scrolls.

Still, having "Carry Companion" is a much cheaper option than hosteling.

Hmm


Okay, Magda, (or anyone else who has built a negative channeler) more questions from Nefertiti.

I spent some time looking at how Selective Channeling works. It's clear to me that charisma is the attribute to push if I want to be able to exclude my entire party from my negative channeling. So... does my animal companion count as separate from myself for the purpose of channeling?

I can get my Charisma up to 20 with an item, but that excludes only five other people. If my animal companion is separate from myself, do I have to get that number up to 22? Or do I have to be really careful about positioning to always leave someone out?

Hmm


The Animal Companion counts as another ally on the field per RAW. The GM may rule that you are able to exclude him as an extension of yourself, since a channeler is able to exclude themselves from their own channel, but that would be a houserule. Not an earth shattering change, but as you mentioned it makes negative energy channeling more feasible.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I kept reading the title as advice on building a Barnacle character.


LazarX wrote:
I kept reading the title as advice on building a Barnacle character.

That's funny cuz I keep seeing "Help me build a Bardiche"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Hmm wrote:

I would have to double check, but I believe it is just some.

At any rate, if Rocs do not get reach, than this affects my build choices. I may have to forgo paired opportunists entirely, or pick a different critter.

Hmm

Roc companions should have 5' reach. They are not "tall" and their bestiary entry has 15' reach on a gargantuan creature.

Silver Crusade

Greetings Nefertiti Abdul!

The summoning spell experienced some winter-holiday-induced delays :-)

1. Probably all to CHA, since you're a Hangover Build, unless you left a convenient odd attribute to boost a 4th level. You want to get CHA to 22 so you can reliably exclude enough allies. Rather than ZAP an ally, it's better to ZAP your own animal companion. Just apologize profusely and help it catch a pig.

2. Not sure what you mean. You are very MAD, but CHA is the thing that matters most, yes. Your 20 CHA will exclude your pet and 4 others. that's usually good enough to not ZAP allies. When CHA is 22 you can let it rest there.

3. I'm afraid so. Do note that it can still kinda work. The Roc lacks reach until 7th level, so you would need to have it threaten the square the foe is moving out of. This means the foe can always choose to attack the Roc, rather than move. Your best best is probably finding a way to Enlarge the Roc, until it becomes Large at 7th level and gets reach.

4. They will. Not really. Use them for fun, but never when the chips are down. My favorite is Commanding a foe to approach, in a way that will force it to provoke multiple AoOs. Tongues, at 3rd level, gets a lot of translator action, but not in Combat.

5. The High CHA doesn't much affect your spells, except insofar as your WIS is very low. Never use your spells offensively, where DC matters. That's what your negative channeling is for :-)

My 5th level low-WIS evangelist cleric might prepare these spells::

Orisons and 4 x 1st + Domain, 3 x 2nd + Domain, 1 x 3rd + Domain
Orisons: Light, Detect Magic, Stabilize , Open Slot (often Create Water)
1st: Domain Spell, Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor (unless you rely on a wand), Open Slot (prepared as Endure Elements every night at bedtime, if not already used)
2nd: Domain Spell, Bull's Strength, Open Slot (instead prepare Cure Moderate Wounds if you are the best combat healer on your team), Open Slot
3rd: Domain Spell, Open Slot (often prepared as either Communal Protection from Energy, Magic Circle against Evil, or Summon Monster III)

6. Ahh, toys. I would argue you can get by just fine without much in the way of magic armor or weapons. I'd recommend you buy toys to shore up weaknesses and improve your chances to survive. For instance, if you expect you'll have to front line a lot get defensive stuff. Gosh, with 10.5 K to spend, at 5th level, I'd probably buy:

Suggested Shopping List:

Headband of +2 CHA 4000
+1 Cloak of Resistance 1000
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier 5000 (maybe only if you have Fates Favored trait, although it's really nice to not die when something big critically hits you - the +1 or +2 to AC is an afterthought)
regular or masterwork armor and weapons


Magda: Are you sure that Rocs get reach when they become large?


Magda --

Thank you for the shopping list and all the time you spent typing this answer.

Hugs!

Hmm

Silver Crusade

Avoron wrote:
Magda: Are you sure that Rocs get reach when they become large?

Yes. Need a reference?


That would be helpful.


I'd really like a reference for it, Magda. I've always used the Beastiary entries and extrapolated. A more concrete rule would be awesome.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Magda Luckbender wrote:
Avoron wrote:
Magda: Are you sure that Rocs get reach when they become large?
Yes. Need a reference?

Yes please.

In a different thread lemeres made a very good argument that they don't get reach because they would be large (tall). I looked over the sections he quoted and could not find anything that would dispute it.

Silver Crusade

I have to agree with lemeres. It looks like the roc doesn't get reach. My error.

My alternate character chose an Axe Beak animal companion, which definitely does get reach when it becomes Large at 4th level, as well as having the single natural attack which is optimal for reach. Other people proposed using the roc for the same purpose, so I figured it got reach, too, when it became large at 7th level. Lemeres makes an excellent argument that the Large size roc does not have reach.

Bizarre Mental Image of the day:

The axe beak is a giant flightless predatory bird. You can concoct a herbivorous version akin to the extinct Giant Moa of New Zealand, probably with similar stats. The pathfinder version is carnivorous and has stubby little wings.

Keyword above is flightless. While a roc can fly, an axe beak can not.

One common way to get an axe beak animal companion is via the Animal (Feather) subdomain. The third level domain spell is fly. So, a 5th level divine caster with an axe beak can cast Fly on the axe beak, teach it the fly skill, and ride it as a flying steed for the duration of the spell. Conveniently, feather fall is the 2nd level domain spell.

Imagine, if you will, the ridiculous image of a stubby-winged axe beak flying. The flightless bird flies! This absurd approach to mounted flight gets a medium size character airborne 2 levels earlier than waiting for the roc to become Large.


That's part of the reason that I eschewed the Roc in favor of the third party Haast's Eagle. I'm having to give up paired opportunists in favor of undersized mount, but I'm getting in the air regularly with a strong flying mount.


Pteradon is also an option for a flying mount with reach, but it has worse stats than a roc. I posted here a list of animal companions that appear to gain reach.

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