In my book shurikens are listed as ranged weapons. So yes.
And no, you need to have it ready, but if you Can get a new ready as part of the AOO. Just like a archer need to have a arrow ready on the bow to take his AOO.
Edit: thing is, you need the threaten to get the AOO. If you dont have the shuirken ready in your hand.
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And no, you need to have it ready, but if you Can get a new ready as part of the AOO. Just like a archer need to have a arrow ready on the bow to take his AOO.
FAQ
Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?
Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.
-- I think you're taking an overly technical view. If you can "threaten" with an unloaded bow, I don't see why you couldn't threaten with a shuriken. In both cases, you can draw your ammunition as part of your AOO. Reload your hand with a shuriken vs reload your bow with an arrow, I don't see a difference.
Exept you need to "wield" the weapon to threaten with it according to the snap shot feat:
"Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon..."
I also Think the Bow need to be ready to threaten. So if you are Holding a thing in your other hand the bow is not ready and therefore you dont "wield" for the purpose go the feat.
Just like you dont threaten 10 feet and 5 by Holding a longspear in one hand having a spiked glove on.
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I also Think the Bow need to be ready to threaten. So if you are Holding a thing in your other hand the bow is not ready and therefore you dont "wield" for the purpose go the feat.
I agree with you! If the PC is holding lanterns in both hands, he cannot draw the Shuriken as a free action and thus cannot us Snap Shot. However, per the FAQ, if he has a free hand, and can draw his thrown weapon as a free action, then he can use it with Snap Shot.
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I also Think the Bow need to be ready to threaten. So if you are Holding a thing in your other hand the bow is not ready and therefore you dont "wield" for the purpose go the feat.I agree with you! If the PC is holding lanterns in both hands, he cannot draw the Shuriken as a free action and thus cannot us Snap Shot. However, per the FAQ, if he has a free hand, and can draw his thrown weapon as a free action, then he can use it with Snap Shot.
But doesn't he need Quick Draw to be able to pull shuriken as a free action?
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But doesn't he need Quick Draw to be able to pull shuriken as a free action?I also Think the Bow need to be ready to threaten. So if you are Holding a thing in your other hand the bow is not ready and therefore you dont "wield" for the purpose go the feat.I agree with you! If the PC is holding lanterns in both hands, he cannot draw the Shuriken as a free action and thus cannot us Snap Shot. However, per the FAQ, if he has a free hand, and can draw his thrown weapon as a free action, then he can use it with Snap Shot.
It's treated as ammunition.
I would rule that subsequent ammo is a free action but to trigger the feat, one has to be in hand in the first place.
it can be a weapon OR ammo… not simultaneously a weapon AND ammo.
since shurikans are treated as ammo for drawing them. it is best to just end your turn with a free action of drawing one extra.(and if you have combat revlexs and used AOO just end it with an other free action of drawig one more.) fix most of this.
I also Think the Bow need to be ready to threaten. So if you are Holding a thing in your other hand the bow is not ready and therefore you dont "wield" for the purpose go the feat.I agree with you! If the PC is holding lanterns in both hands, he cannot draw the Shuriken as a free action and thus cannot us Snap Shot. However, per the FAQ, if he has a free hand, and can draw his thrown weapon as a free action, then he can use it with Snap Shot.
i Think you need the weapon in hand to threaten. And if you dont threaten you dont get you AOO. A archer must also have a arrow nocked just a gunslinger need a loaded gun to threaten. Only exeption i Can Think of is kensai magus Iaijutsu.
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A archer must also have a arrow nocked
Actually, An archer doesn't need an arrow nocked to threaten. If you can reload your weapon as part of the AoO snap shot grants, then your weapon does not need to be nocked or loaded to make the AoO.
I always assumed you reloaded after the shot. The FAQ is not really concerning it self with the question you guys seem to Think it talks about.
If you dont threaten in the first place then you dont get a AOO and then combat reflexes and snap shot dosent really matter.
But it seems i cannot convince you so no worries. :)
With the shapshot feet you DO threaten 'in the first place' with a wielded ranged weapon, it's right in the feat description. There is no tacked on requirement that you must have an arrow nocked to threaten.I always assumed you reloaded after the shot. The FAQ is not really concerning it self with the question you guys seem to Think it talks about.
If you dont threaten in the first place then you dont get a AOO and then combat reflexes and snap shot dosent really matter.
But it seems i cannot convince you so no worries. :)
But do you think you are wielding a shurikin when it is in your pocket? That is the question here. And since the wielding part of Many rules is a bit fuzzy asking a archer to go with a nocked arrow is not unreasonable. IMOP.
But do you think you are wielding a shurikin when it is in your pocket? That is the question here. And since the wielding part of Many rules is a bit fuzzy asking a archer to go with a nocked arrow is not unreasonable. IMOP.
Do you always ask your archers whether they have an arrow nocked or not? My group certainly doesn't. If you have a bow in hand, then you are ready to use the bow, whether you imagine it with arrow on the string, or a draw as you bring the bow up to aim, it doesn't really matter.
Same with shurikens. If you can draw them as a free action, and they are readily accessible (like on a belt or in a holster/sheath of some kind) then I would consider them "ready to use".
The same would apply for thrown daggers with the quickdraw feat.
But do you think you are wielding a shurikin when it is in your pocket? That is the question here. And since the wielding part of Many rules is a bit fuzzy asking a archer to go with a nocked arrow is not unreasonable. IMOP.With the shapshot feet you DO threaten 'in the first place' with a wielded ranged weapon, it's right in the feat description. There is no tacked on requirement that you must have an arrow nocked to threaten.I always assumed you reloaded after the shot. The FAQ is not really concerning it self with the question you guys seem to Think it talks about.
If you dont threaten in the first place then you dont get a AOO and then combat reflexes and snap shot dosent really matter.
But it seems i cannot convince you so no worries. :)No, I don't necessarily think that, though I could perhaps be persuaded with regard to the shuriken. My push back was on the specific statement claiming that you needed to have an arrow nocked to threaten with a bow (with the snapshot feat).
This is incorrect. Wielding a bow does not mean that you have an arrow nocked.
Pehaps not Lets not make this about bows. I can ask my players to have nocked arrows even if it is not the rules in the books(i am a pirates code kind of rules guy)
But for shurikins this looks like the wielding a long Spear and a spiked gauntlet at the same time kind of thing. And i dont use that. I tell folks to get spiked armor.
Pehaps not Lets not make this about bows. I can ask my players to have nocked arrows even if it is not the rules in the books(i am a pirates code kind of rules guy)
But for shurikins this looks like the wielding a long Spear and a spiked gauntlet at the same time kind of thing. And i dont use that. I tell folks to get spiked armor.
If I was a player in your game and you wanted that, I'd just say, "Unless otherwise stated, assume I have a shuriken in hand. I can put it away specifically if I don't need it."
And done, now I always have a shuriken in hand unless I need to have the hand free. Solved.
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It makes sense to me that as long as you have a free hand, it is perfectly fine to allow the attack of opportunity. It doesn't seem rational that you could draw and throw for a second opportunity, but you can't for the first one.
However, general principle if followed would seem to allow quickdraw of a melee weapon for an attack of opportunity as well, which is probably going a bit beyond what we would like to see.
I think the real answer is that 'ready ammunition' should have been classified as 'not an action' rather than as a 'free action' which would make things fall into place easier. Presuming you can perform 'not an action' things at any time, but free actions only on your turn, then if you have a free hand you could effectively be wielding a shurikan at any instant you wanted to, and everything else would fall into place just fine.
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But for shurikins this looks like the wielding a long Spear and a spiked gauntlet at the same time kind of thing. And i dont use that. I tell folks to get spiked armor.
Shuriken are treated as ammuntion. Drawing ammunition is a free action. Snap Shot allows you to make a free action draw as part of the Attack OF Opportunity granted by the feat. So as long as you have your container of shuriken, you can make the AoO granted by Snap Shot with one even if you don't have one in hand.
This is as written and intended.
Anything denying it is a house rule.
Pehaps not Lets not make this about bows. I can ask my players to have nocked arrows even if it is not the rules in the books(i am a pirates code kind of rules guy)
But for shurikins this looks like the wielding a long Spear and a spiked gauntlet at the same time kind of thing. And i dont use that. I tell folks to get spiked armor.If I was a player in your game and you wanted that, I'd just say, "Unless otherwise stated, assume I have a shuriken in hand. I can put it away specifically if I don't need it."
And done, now I always have a shuriken in hand unless I need to have the hand free. Solved.
And it would be fine but you would be the guy with a shuriken in hand at the grocery store.
Shuriken are treated as ammuntion. Drawing ammunition is a free action. Snap Shot allows you to make a free action draw as part of the Attack OF Opportunity granted by the feat. So as long as you have your container of shuriken, you can make the AoO granted by Snap Shot with one even if you don't have one in hand.
But for shurikins this looks like the wielding a long Spear and a spiked gauntlet at the same time kind of thing. And i dont use that. I tell folks to get spiked armor.
Sure, but you have to be wielding the bow to threaten. I can see the desire to require at least one shuriken be wielded as well, and think that is reasonable.
And it would be fine but you would be the guy with a shurikin in hand at the grocery store.
If I thought the grocery store was a likely place that I'd need to be ready to take that AoO with a shuriken, then so be it. Better that than the guy who got ambushed while shopping.
And it would be fine but you would be the guy with a shurikin in hand at the grocery store.If I thought the grocery store was a likely place that I'd need to be ready to take that AoO with a shuriken, then so be it. Better that than the guy who got ambushed while shopping.
:)
If I make a full attack with shuriken on my turn, am I not wielding them if I didn't have them in hand first?
If it is your own turn you can pull one out as a free action. If it is not your turn you cannot take free actions unless they are part of actions, most likely AoOs, that you qualify for.
Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.
For what its worth, the FAQ reads like you must have had the ranged weapon already loaded in order to be threatening with it, and that you are allowed to reload it as a free action as part of the AoO, not load it initially.
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If I make a full attack with shuriken on my turn, am I not wielding them if I didn't have them in hand first?If it is your own turn you can pull one out as a free action. If it is not your turn you cannot take free actions unless they are part of actions, most likely AoOs, that you qualify for.
Exactly. And Snap Shot is the specific exception that allows you to take them.
Wielding a shuiken means throwing it. You hand is the ranged weapon and the shuriken is a projectile. If you have a free hand and shuriken in a container for them, you are wielding them at all times. That's what being treated as ammunition means.
It's not like it's overpowering to allow a 1d2 x20 thrown weapon that can't be permanently enchanted to be thrown as an AoO when it's not in hand.
If I make a full attack with shuriken on my turn, am I not wielding them if I didn't have them in hand first?If it is your own turn you can pull one out as a free action. If it is not your turn you cannot take free actions unless they are part of actions, most likely AoOs, that you qualify for.Exactly. And Snap Shot is the specific exception that allows you to take them.
Wielding a shuiken means throwing it. You hand is the ranged weapon and the shuriken is a projectile. If you have a free hand and shuriken in a container for them, you are wielding them at all times. That's what being treated as ammunition means.
It's not like it's overpowering to allow a 1d2 x20 thrown weapon that can't be permanently enchanted to be thrown as an AoO when it's not in hand.
I disagree. "The hand is the weapon part" is somthing you are making up.
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Reload implies that it was previously loaded.
If they intended that you could load the bow as part of the AoO, they would have said "load" not "reload".
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Reload implies nothing of the sort. In fact, there is no difference in pathfinder:Reload implies that it was previously loaded.
If they intended that you could load the bow as part of the AoO, they would have said "load" not "reload".
In english, you cannot reload something until it has been loaded. Once loaded, then you can reload the thing.
All reloads are 'loads'. In fact, how could it be anything but the same? If I shot a bow last round, am I 'loading' it or 'reloading' it if I shoot again this round? What if I shot it 1 minute ago, or 10?
What is the time cutoff for your word 'previously' which turns loading into reloading? There is none, they are the exact same action.
Yes, all reloads are loads, that is what the word means. "Load again." The FAQ using the word reload implies that they had in mind that the bow was loaded, and that you are firing it, and reloading it so that it is ready for the next attack of opportunity. The FAQ question is if multiple attacks can be made with a bow. The answer was yes, because you can reload the bow as part of the attack. If the bow isn't loaded, then you can't make an attack. If you can't make an attack, then you can't reload it as part of that attack.
So, you have a loaded bow. Someone provokes. You shoot them, and reload the bow as a free action. Someone else provokes, you shoot them, and reload as a free action.
VS
You have an unloaded bow. Someone provokes. You can't attack because you are not loaded, you can't take a free action to reload because you are not attacking.
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Technically, according to the phrasing of the feat and FAQ, you cannot use shurikens with snap shot when it's not in your hand because you have to be wielding the weapon to threaten, then you can't free action draw a shuriken because it's states you can reload if it's a free action, not draw a weapon. But personally, I think it's clear they were only thinking of Bow/Crossbow/Gun users when they created the feat and FAQ. Personally I don't see anything wrong with allowing the feat to work with thrown weapons, although according to the language they used it doesn't.
Shuriken are not drawing a weapon, but drawing ammunition, which is a free action.
Using Quick draw is also a free action, and also not allowed as it has to be a reload action. You draw shurikens, not reload them, hence it doesn't work.
You don't reload a bow either. You just draw arrows for it.
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
Using Quick draw is also a free action, and also not allowed as it has to be a reload action. You draw shurikens, not reload them, hence it doesn't work.
Lets remember that the FAQ dosent change any rules it just Answer a question. So trying to deduce all sorts of stuff from it gets you to funny places.
Yes, all reloads are loads, that is what the word means. "Load again." The FAQ using the word reload implies that they had in mind that the bow was loaded, and that you are firing it, and reloading it so that it is ready for the next attack of opportunity. The FAQ question is if multiple attacks can be made with a bow. The answer was yes, because you can reload the bow as part of the attack. If the bow isn't loaded, then you can't make an attack. If you can't make an attack, then you can't reload it as part of that attack.
So, you have a loaded bow. Someone provokes. You shoot them, and reload the bow as a free action. Someone else provokes, you shoot them, and reload as a free action.
VS
You have an unloaded bow. Someone provokes. You can't attack because you are not loaded, you can't take a free action to reload because you are not attacking.
Wrong, the FAQ specifically says that you can reload as part of the AoO. It doesn't say after you attack for the first AoO, it says 'as part', which means that you can reload your bow for your first AoO shot. If they said 'load' instead of 'reload' then you would get people like yourself claiming that you can only load for one shot, and not reload for the following shots, ignoring once again that there is no difference in pathfinder.
Otherwise, you're trying to tell me that the rapid reload feat, which uses the same word 'reload' does not apply to an unloaded crossbow. The first time you want to use your crossbow in combat, you have to use a normal move action to load it, and only then can you use the rapid reload feat?
Seriously?
No, just no. Load and reload mean the exact same thing in Pathfinder, they are used interchangeably as pointed out in the quote from the rapid reload feat: Normal: reloading a crossbow is a move action.
The rules say that loading a crossbow is a move action, they don't say anything about reloading. Therefore either the rules are contradictory, or load and reload mean the exact same thing.
Which they do.
Load/reload aside. If the bow is not loaded, then you can't attack with it. If you can't attack with it, then you can't reload as part of the attack. Because the attack can't happen without it being loaded in the first place.
If you have the bow loaded, you can make an attack, and also reload it so that it is ready to make additional attacks. That is what the FAQ says.
If the bow is not loaded, then you can't attack with it, so you also can't reload it. The FAQ does not say you can start an attack with an unloaded bow, and reload it as part of that attack. The bow has to be in a state which an attack can be made from it. (Readied in hand, loaded).
In english, you cannot reload something until it has been loaded. Once loaded, then you can reload the thing.Reload implies nothing of the sort. In fact, there is no difference in pathfinder:Reload implies that it was previously loaded.
If they intended that you could load the bow as part of the AoO, they would have said "load" not "reload".
Unless you're using a bow for the very first time ever, it has 'been loaded' in the past. Please show me the rules in pathfinder that distinguishes between loading and reloading. We're talking rules here, not quibbling over English semantics.
Wrong, the FAQ specifically says that you can reload as part of the AoO. It doesn't say after you...
All reloads are 'loads'. In fact, how could it be anything but the same? If I shot a bow last round, am I 'loading' it or 'reloading' it if I shoot again this round? What if I shot it 1 minute ago, or 10?
What is the time cutoff for your word 'previously' which turns loading into reloading? There is none, they are the exact same action.
Yes, all reloads are loads, that is what the word means. "Load again." The FAQ using the word reload implies that they had in mind that the bow was loaded, and that you are firing it, and reloading it so that it is ready for the next attack of opportunity. The FAQ question is if multiple attacks can be made with a bow. The answer was yes, because you can reload the bow as part of the attack. If the bow isn't loaded, then you can't make an attack. If you can't make an attack, then you can't reload it as part of that attack.
So, you have a loaded bow. Someone provokes. You shoot them, and reload the bow as a free action. Someone else provokes, you shoot them, and reload as a free action.
VS
You have an unloaded bow. Someone provokes. You can't attack because you are not loaded, you can't take a free action to reload because you are not attacking.
Lets remember that the FAQ dosent change any rules it just Answer a question. So trying to deduce all sorts of stuff from it gets you to funny places.
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There is no real difference between nocking an arrow to string before shooting or after shooting. Load or reload, they are the same action type.
That said, I see the merit in forcing the arrow to be nocked before making a snap shot, as the feat says you must be wielding the item and it is faster to pull and release than nock, pull and release. That is enough to convince me that Snap Shot may need to have ammunition loaded or the weapon in hand to use it.
However, we have the FAQ on Snap Shot that allows you to reload while making the AoO. We also have another recent FAQ allowing you to take other free actions during an attack of opportunity that indicates the free action rules are being laxed in order to allow abilities to work that would otherwise not be able to.
It's not overpowered to allow someone to draw and throw a shuriken in reaction to a move if it's not in hand (1d2 x20). It's also in line with the abilities of most shuriken users in fiction.
However, we have the FAQ on Snap Shot that allows you to reload while making the AoO. We also have another recent FAQ allowing you to take other free actions during an attack of opportunity that indicates the free action rules are being laxed in order to allow abilities to work that would otherwise not be able to.
While you can reload as part of the attack, if the bow doesn't have an arrow ready, then you can't make the attack so you can't load it.
The reload word seems significant to me. It seems to be implying that the default for a wielded bow is that you have it in your hand with an arrow nocked and therefore you are ready to use it immediately, and that a trained archer can, as part of his motions in firing an arrow, also make the motions necessary to replace the arrow.
The bow is ready to fire, and can be readied to fire again for free. If we apply that to shuriken, than if you are wielding a shuriken (you have it out and our focused on making at attack with it) when you make an attack you can grab another one, thus still being ready to attack with it.
Reload, while similar to load, is not an exact synonym. It does indeed imply loading after firing (although there is no particular definite time frame involved, it wouldn't be appropriate after a significant break in the activity.) If you and I go to a range and you hand me a gun I shot yesterday and tell me to reload, I'm definitely going to think you don't understand the word (and possibly rethink my decision to be shooting with you.)
The FAQ is adressing a question about multible AoOs. Dont take it fore more than it is.
? Where are you getting that you can't attack with it?Load/reload aside. If the bow is not loaded, then you can't attack with it. If you can't attack with it, then you can't reload as part of the attack. Because the attack can't happen without it being loaded in the first place.
If you have the bow loaded, you can make an attack, and also reload it so that it is ready to make additional attacks. That is what the FAQ says.
If the bow is not loaded, then you can't attack with it, so you also can't reload it. The FAQ does not say you can start an attack with an unloaded bow, and reload it as part of that attack. The bow has to be in a state which an attack can be made from it. (Readied in hand, loaded).
If you don't have an arrow in it, then you can't make an attack. Projectile weapons use ammunition.
The snapshot feat specifically says you threaten with a wielded bow, not a nocked bow. It says you can then take an AoO with that wielded bow.
Actually, it says: Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
You threaten squares within 5', and can make AoOs.And the clarifying FAQ says, once again:
As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.Note: it doesn't say the 'subsequent' AoOs, or in any way exclude the 1st AoO from the free action to reload.
How can you make an attack if you don't have an arrow to shoot? If you can't start the attack, then you can't reload as part of the attack.
So, not only do you threaten with a wielded bow, you can attack with that bow and, thanks to the FAQ, you can reload that bow prior to your attack with a free action.
What word or words do you see that make you think you can't make an AoO with an unloaded bow using the snapshot feat?
Yse, without the clarifying FAQ, there would be nothing to indicate that you could use a free action to load your bow as part of your AoO. The FAQ says you can.
The FAQ says you can REload it as part of the attack. Not load it. The difference is exactly what I have been saying.
If loaded, you can threaten and attack. After the attack, you can reload as a free action.
If not loaded, you still threaten, but can't attack because you have nothing to shoot. Because you can't attack, you can't reload as part of the attack, because you cannot attack in the first place.
That's fine. It doesn't matter that they are synonyms. What matters is that you cannot make an attack with an unloaded bow. If you can't make an attack, then the fact that you can reload the bow as part of an attack is moot, because you cannot make an attack.
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Snap shot requires you to be wielding a ranged weapon. Wielding in this context can imply being in all respects ready to use. With that interpretation, a wielded bow has an arrow nocked, a weilded shurikan is in hand and ready to throw etc.
You can return it to its fully ready state of being wielded for free as part of the AoO, enabling multiple AoOs, but you can't establish a 'wielded' state for free outside of your turn.
This all seems reasonable to me, entirely consistent the wording we have been presented and consistent with theme and flavor as well.