Can you retrain a feat used as a prerequisite that you later gain as a class feature?


Rules Questions

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Bronnwynn wrote:
kinevon wrote:


Just as a note about system mastery, and the benefit of a rule for retraining: The rules are in the Ultimate Campaign book,...
They're also on the PRD. That free document.

Also on d20PFSRD, which has even more than the PRD (albeit renamed to avoid copyright infringement), and without checking the copyrights or sources, is VERY easy to mix & match info without ever picking up any Pathfinder books.

Grand Lodge

chbgraphicarts wrote:
Bronnwynn wrote:
kinevon wrote:


Just as a note about system mastery, and the benefit of a rule for retraining: The rules are in the Ultimate Campaign book,...
They're also on the PRD. That free document.
Also on d20PFSRD, which has even more than the PRD (albeit renamed to avoid copyright infringement), and without checking the copyrights or sources, is VERY easy to mix & match info without ever picking up any Pathfinder books.

GM willing, of course.

And, of course, if you run a legacy game, you could always use the retraining rules from the 3.5 PH2, instead. Which takes us pretty far afield.

My point was that, unless you were into system mastery already, you probably never even thought about retraining, so you wouldn't have bought the book for it, or found them on any of the rules source sites....


kinevon wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Bronnwynn wrote:
kinevon wrote:


Just as a note about system mastery, and the benefit of a rule for retraining: The rules are in the Ultimate Campaign book,...
They're also on the PRD. That free document.
Also on d20PFSRD, which has even more than the PRD (albeit renamed to avoid copyright infringement), and without checking the copyrights or sources, is VERY easy to mix & match info without ever picking up any Pathfinder books.

GM willing, of course.

And, of course, if you run a legacy game, you could always use the retraining rules from the 3.5 PH2, instead. Which takes us pretty far afield.

My point was that, unless you were into system mastery already, you probably never even thought about retraining, so you wouldn't have bought the book for it, or found them on any of the rules source sites....

Unless the GM says "we're using the retraining rules if you want to" and the player then asks "what are the retraining rules?"

Grand Lodge

John Lynch 106 wrote:
kinevon wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Bronnwynn wrote:
kinevon wrote:


Just as a note about system mastery, and the benefit of a rule for retraining: The rules are in the Ultimate Campaign book,...
They're also on the PRD. That free document.
Also on d20PFSRD, which has even more than the PRD (albeit renamed to avoid copyright infringement), and without checking the copyrights or sources, is VERY easy to mix & match info without ever picking up any Pathfinder books.

GM willing, of course.

And, of course, if you run a legacy game, you could always use the retraining rules from the 3.5 PH2, instead. Which takes us pretty far afield.

My point was that, unless you were into system mastery already, you probably never even thought about retraining, so you wouldn't have bought the book for it, or found them on any of the rules source sites....

Unless the GM says "we're using the retraining rules if you want to" and the player then asks "what are the retraining rules?"

That player auomatically gets to use them.

The other player, who already knows them well?

Screw him. Bunglers and beginners only.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

That player auomatically gets to use them.

The other player, who already knows them well?

Screw him. Bunglers and beginners only.

Ah, yes, because not wanting multiple instances of the same feat - when multiclassing monk - makes you a dirty, dirty optimizer and you should rot in hell for not building characters with nothing but flavor in mind.

Also, if you don't have a flavorful feat choice in mind, you should compile all feats you qualify for and pick one at random - to do anything else is to optimize.

Which is evil.

And dirty.

/rant

The retraining rules exist for a variety of reasons.

Because this isn't AD&D where characters are generic as hell until you get to higher levels since they tend to die like flies, and being locked into a choice is a great way to sap player enjoyment.

Because sometimes people make choices that made sense at the time but no longer do, due to changing campaign situations, and being locked into a choice is a great way to sap player enjoyment.

Because occasionally people feel the desire to do something different and if they can convert their current character towards something different they're a lot more likely to stay immersed, stay committed, and to enjoy the game.


I don't mind optimization to a point, as long as people still remember style, flair and other such beautiful words. Sometimes people do take optimization too far where it becomes an arms race between player(s) and GM... That is when optimization has been taken to far.

I hate optimization cheese, where you take an option even though it fits the character and it's style horribly, simply because it was the absolute strongest option.

In the OP's example it sounds to me like a player who wants a character that stays style consistent, but want to delay the monk level untill later for some reason, but also don't want to gimp his character by actually loosing a feat. I don't see that as cheese. I see that as GOOD RP'ing. I would commend him for it. He of course still has to pay the retraining costs but I wouldn't hassle him about it.

Sczarni

graystone wrote:
RyanH wrote:

Thanks!

Such mayhem from a little thing as me wanting to take Monk at 7 instead of 1. It's almost as if I asked if I could use Sleeves of Many Garments to make a swarmsuit.

Don't get me started... :(

He jests, because I'm pretty sure the Sleeves of Many Garments controversy blew up after he tried to make a Swarmsuit at my table at PaizoCon.

It had been questioned online before that, so there was a founding debate already in place, but the recent FAQ was the result of a lengthy discussion thread (2, actually) that was started after that Convention.

Given the lack of opposing viewpoints on this subject, I doubt an FAQ will be released on retraining. Everyone seems to be on board.


Of course you can.

Life's too short, people.


Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:
Life's too short, people.

Unless you're a level 20 Wizard, level 20 Alchemist, a level 5 Reincarnated Druid, or anyone important enough to rig up any of the myriad ways to become immortal.

It's a wonder that more kings don't have Clones laying around.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Nefreet wrote:
graystone wrote:
RyanH wrote:

Thanks!

Such mayhem from a little thing as me wanting to take Monk at 7 instead of 1. It's almost as if I asked if I could use Sleeves of Many Garments to make a swarmsuit.

Don't get me started... :(

He jests, because I'm pretty sure the Sleeves of Many Garments controversy blew up after he tried to make a Swarmsuit at my table at PaizoCon.

It had been questioned online before that, so there was a founding debate already in place, but the recent FAQ was the result of a lengthy discussion thread (2, actually) that was started after that Convention.

Given the lack of opposing viewpoints on this subject, I doubt an FAQ will be released on retraining. Everyone seems to be on board.

Nah, it was another guy at the table (I was the one at the table with my 11 year old) ... though all of my PFS characters had Sleeves on lay-away, waiting to see what the final ruling was.

Sczarni

Oh! That's right. With the pet leopard or something, right?

That game went so dismally, Lol.


I think in general people get too caught up in the whole "RAW/RAI" argument. It's only logical that you can't retrain a feat that's used as a prerequisite for other feats. But there are feats that are less useful as time goes by, and those ought to be retrained away.

I'm using my Soulknife as an example. I'm playing in a Mythic campaign right now (using the Soulknife from "Ultimate Psionics"), and early on, her mindblade was Keen for the higher crit threat. However, as I'm progressing through Mythic tiers, I want the Mythic version of Improved Critical, which requires the non-Mythic feat as a pre-req. I didn't previously have need of it with a Keen weapon, but after reformatting my mindblade to have Corrosive instead (I otherwise want to maintain the maximum possible enhancement bonus for my mindblade at a given level, which right now is +3, so it often means I can only assign a +1-value ability to the blades themselves), I took the feat, training away something else (I don't recall what).

That's just an example of needs changing in the game.

Every time I see RAW/RAI arguments, I just boggle at them. What kind of game world are these players/GMs in where these arguments arise at all? It seems that you either have:

1) Players trying to get away with something they know they likely can't without drilling down on some specific detail, or

2) GMs who are so worried about things getting out of hand (or dealing with players like Option 1 on a repeated basis) that they clamp down as tightly on things as possible to avoid power creep.

That's just never been my experience. As a player, I take what seems fun. If the GM doesn't want it, I can find other options. More often, the GM (and this is how I behave as a GM as well) just adjusts things to insure that the encounters are still challenging.

The game just doesn't need to be an ongoing argument over the rules. I think they're pretty clearly stated, and the GM can always invoke Rule Zero as needed, or just say, "Material from <insert sourcebook here> isn't available in my campaign."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In PFS it's important that the rules are followed the same at each table. That's one example of why RAW is important, and when there is some question as to interpretation why RAI is important.

It's in no one's best interest to play a morning session at a con with a character using X feat in X way, to have that interpreted differently at the next table.

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