Insanity at Higher Levels

[Grayn]

I'm running a higher level campaign and want to use the Insanity rules. After about level 11, it seems that insanity and most conditions are pretty easy to overcome.

Anyone have any advice on how to make Insanity a little more difficult to side step at higher levels? I don't want to make it impossible, but at least a little more challenging than just casting Heal.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

Both freeport d20 and call of Cthulhu d20 have sanity subsystems.

[Grayn]

Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

Both freeport d20 and call of Cthulhu d20 have sanity subsystems.

Yeah, I'm trying to see if there is anything within the PF ruleset. I may need to take it to a 3P or other system, but that's not looking good for future conditions in my PF campaign.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

But they're fully compatible. I dropped the freeport sanity rules into my pathfinder game without an inch of modification. Worked fine.

[Grayn]

Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:

But they're fully compatible. I dropped the freeport sanity rules into my pathfinder game without an inch of modification. Worked fine.

Sounds good. I've been meaning to pick up Freeport for awhile and this is a good enough reason.

But, I'd still like to know if anyone has any suggestions on dealing with insanity and conditions in general in higher levels. I'm really feeling like I can't do anything once the cleric or druid gets heal (which seems pretty much standard on a healer).

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

My cleric just got 6th level spells. And wow, there's a lot of good stuff. Yes, heal is nice, but planar ally? Wind walk? Blade barrier?

It's not automatic that a cleric will take heal. And if they do or don't, the advice is the same. At this level, PCs are powerful individuals with resources. They can generally withdraw from a fight when they choose.

So, battles need to be about something. 'You and me, let's fight' doesn't work as well.

Keep up the time pressure on them, don't let them rest.
Threaten things they care about. Maybe they can teleport away, but the villagers can't.
Bring back the wandering monster. Resting shouldn't be risk free.
Have enemies gather info on them. Now that they're famous, it'll be clear what their main tactics are. Take those away sometimes.

[Grayn]

You're right, Heal is not a guarantee choice for a PC. But, for a dedicated healer it'll probably be towards the top of their list.

I don't have a problem encouraging my players to fight. In fact, its the opposite and that leads me to my question. As the players increase their resources, how do we increase our threat particularly with Insanity?

Outside of repeated blunt force trauma, conditions (and I'm using Insanity because it fits my situation) add a layer of threat. But, it seems that as written they loose their potency as soon as you hit mid-level.

Insanity is just another tool of the GM. Just like environmental conditions, magical auras and interrupted rests provide layers of threat. I'm just trying to find out if anyone has had any luck with this tool in higher levels because it seems that just about anything except being hit really hard can be negated with common spells.

[Rabbiteconomist]

Unless you increase DCs, your other option is to make your insanity a curse, which requires remove curse (or limited wish/wish/miracle aft your discretion) in addition to a Heal spell.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

At 11th level, I find that the conditions inflicted on characters are much more brutal.

Turned to Stone
Killed
Shifted to another plane
Poisoned
Ability Drain
Level Drain
Massive energy damage
Drowned

And just like being shaken or sickened at low levels, the PCs have to have the right counter-moves. Even if you have a dedicated healer in the group, there should be enough save or die type effects to make things really difficult.

Are you paying attention to action economy? Breath of Life requires you to be really close.

This leads me to believe that the OP is pulling punches, and isn't killing people.

[Peasant]

I'm a bit surprised that this issue is anywhere near the top of your list of concerns in prepping for a high level campaign. Conditions are meant to add spice and variety to conflict but ultimately to be overcome. This really happens one of two ways. Either the players are suitably prepared by dint of research or planning, in which case they have devoted resources that could have been used elsewhere to negating/overcoming the threat and get to feel smart. Or they are taken more or less unawares and the healer gets a rare moment in the actual spotlight as they race to address the issue while even moderately intelligent bad guys try to hamper/isolate/delay him/her and divide his/her attention between multiple friends in need. That latter can be a wonderful race against the clock when you throw anti-magic, counterspelling, various combat maneuvers and even the simple silence spell into the mix.

There is a third option for using conditions of course. If you really want the team to have to deal with the effects, just use a continually reapplying source of the condition, whether it be a symbol, a trap or some creature (aberrations are often good here) that reapplies it as an aura. At that point it's basically an environmental effect and doesn't even need particular explanation. The party may just be in the Halls of Insanity, cursed ground on which that condition cannot be removed.

[Matthew Downie]

Some types of insanity that won't be instantly cured:
(1) A character is struck by a form of insanity that is extremely subtle - none of the other characters can cure him without diagnosing him. This may or may not require keeping the fact of the characters' insanity secret from the player. (For example, paranoia such that whenever he makes a Sense Motive roll on someone, the GM tells him that this person wishes him harm.)
(2) The only guy who can cast Heal is struck by a form of insanity which causes him to believe he is the only sane one; he won't cure himself except by accident, but thinks everyone else needs curing.
(3) A character is smitten with divine insanity through the power of a chaos god, and cannot be cured with anything less than Miracle, Limited Wish or whatever you think is sufficiently difficult to get hold of.
(4) A character is seized by a form of insanity that provides superficial benefits, so the player is not motivated to get treatment.
(5) The entire party is struck by insanity simultaneously while on a time-critical mission - they won't be able to cast Heal enough to cure them all.

[LazarX]

Grayn wrote:

I'm running a higher level campaign and want to use the Insanity rules. After about level 11, it seems that insanity and most conditions are pretty easy to overcome.

Anyone have any advice on how to make Insanity a little more difficult to side step at higher levels? I don't want to make it impossible, but at least a little more challenging than just casting Heal.

Time to refine your questions.

1. What kind of insanity do you want to inflict your party with. Keep in mind that an insane martial may well mean the death of your party if it makes him attack his fellows.

2. Exactly what kind of difficulty are you looking for?