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As the title asks. I like the Kitsune race...a lot. So much I want my first PFS character to be a Kitsune. The issue? I am a terrible GM, and hate pre-gens, so this character will be starting off at level 1, no way around that. The other issue? I only like characters with some kind of magic ability. I NEVER play full martials, like swashbucklers and other then swashbucklers and Eldritch Scions, which apparently suck beyond salvation, there is really no other classes that have magic and work well with a Kitsune beyond "squishy" fullcasters like sorcerers and oracles.
So, my question is thus: In pathfinder society, where you are not gurinteed a compitent meat shield every game, how survivable are fullcasters like sorcerers and oracles? Is their survivability too low to even worth considering without GM and/or Pre-gen credit to level boost them or are they survivable enough where I can play one straight from level 1 on up just fine? Any thoughts, opinions and shared experences on this matter would be nice.
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Take Toughness as a level 1 feat. When you get 3 XP, retrain it to something that you want or, if you want Toughness (it's honestly a good choice), keep it.. BAM! Survivability problem solved.
Seriously, it's not a big problem. As a Kitsune, in fact, you get around one of the most deadly things that scenario writers tend to put in: Favored Enemy (Human). In fact, if you consistently tend towards the back of the marching order, you'll likely have no problems avoiding melee, which is where most of the damage is, anyway.
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I want an initiative booster at level 1 such as noble scion or improved initiative, so sadly toughness at level 1 is not an option without getting it as a bonus feat somehow. I suppose that means sorcerer is totally out from a survivability standpoint, correct? What about oracle, in that case? How survivable are oracles at level 1?
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Kitsune make great sorcerers with a chrisma bonus and get a boost to dexterity too.
For your first strait spell caster I would suggest a 14 constitution and put your favored class bonus into hit points. That way you can start with 9 hit points.
Use a light crossbow as your weapon and some good spells like color spray and you can really rock a low level adventure.
Don't forget to take a cantrip that can do direct damage like acid splash.
If you have mage armor up and a 16 dexterity you have a decent armor class of 17.
If you have an 18 Charisma and spend one skill point on intimidate you have a +7 with that skill at first level, a nice little skill to have in battle.
These are a few ways to add value as a sorcerer and stay alive.
A scroll or two of Shield for 25 gold each can help survive those first few adventures too!
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How do you res your character without any prestige, though? By start over do you mean make a new character all togther? Also...nobody has said a thing about Oracles. It seems, at least to me, that they would be a LOT more likely to survive at level 1 with the fact they get armor and a d8 for HD. Does anybody have comments on the survivability of Oracles at level 1?
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I don't enjoy non-magical characters, though. If I did I would have just made the all-too-common Kitsune swashbuckler and called it a day. I like to have SOME form of supernatural powers on my characters, so yeah. I'd like to know, does ANYBODY play casters at level 1 in PFS, or do they all start them at higher levels with GM and/or pre-gen. If anybody can share their experences playing a caster at level 1 in PFS, specificly at a table without a real meat shield, I'd be grateful. My biggest fear is winding up at a table of entirely squishies...if I have a meat shield, I should be fine....but in a group of nothing but squishies...how in the world you survive in PFS, which from what I heard is mostly combat?
Yo bro check your other thread, you can easily go the way I listed.
Also why not go Archeologist Bard or Dervish of Dawn?
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Dervish means I have to be good, and I don't want to be good. I can't play good characters effectively....and have no desire to. As for archeologist, what makes it any better at combat then an arcane duelist? About the only reason I see to take it over arcane duelist is that I don't need to ever take perform, which is a plus since I have no desire to play a musician, actor or other form of trade performer.(About the only perform skills I could see the kind of character I want to play taking would be oratory and MAYBE comedy.) So Arcane Duelist or Archeologist both seem like good options I suppose, and like the magus can get that 18 AC via dex + chain shirt.
Cleric is...not a good class for a Kitsune. Even as a channling cleric, you will never have good enough wisdom. As for Oracles I did consider a lunar oracle but I don't see how your getting any natural attacks until level 7 with beast shape...unless your refering to their animal companion?
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I want an initiative booster at level 1 such as noble scion or improved initiative, so sadly toughness at level 1 is not an option without getting it as a bonus feat somehow. I suppose that means sorcerer is totally out from a survivability standpoint, correct? What about oracle, in that case? How survivable are oracles at level 1?
I understand your desire for an initiative booster. When you get 3 experience, you can trade out Toughness for either Imp Init or Noble Scion at no cost through the level 1 rebuild rules. It's on page 10 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, for reference.
@archeologist: free rogue talents become combat feats and you still don't have a morale bonus, so you can take Battle Cry and Flagbearer + Banner of the Ancient Kings or whatever other morale bonus (Heroism?)
btw you didnt check my blade adept suggestion...
@archeologist: free rogue talents become combat feats and you still don't have a morale bonus, so you can take Battle Cry and Flagbearer + Banner of the Ancient Kings (with Slashing Grace on Scimitar, you can wield the spear with the banner on the other hand) or whatever other morale bonus (Heroism?)
btw you didnt check my blade adept suggestion...
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I did check out your suggestion, but it sadly dose not mesh well with the Kitsune race at all, which is the entire reason this whole debate is even happening. If I was not set on a Kitsune, I would just make the human or elven magus and call it a day. However, I am 100% set on Kitsune...and thats not going to change.
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Dervish means I have to be good, and I don't want to be good. I can't play good characters effectively....and have no desire to.
Actually, you don't have to be good, you have to worship Sarenrae. You can be TN and still fine in her book. You would just downplay redemption, and focus on destroy evil.
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I don't even want to worship sarenrae. I want to play a selfish character. I don't want to make a character who worships a good-aligned god.....my faction of choice would be dark archives...in case you where wondering. I like DARK characters, and sarenrae is the exact opposite of dark. So dervish is out of the question. That is final. As for other options, what in the world is wrong with arcane duelist? It seems like it would be good at the whole fencing grace/dervish dance melee kind of thing, still casts off of charisma, has in-class ways to boost damage and has the same suitability as a magus. Since it loses versatile performance, I can just take perform oratory and not have to worry about the fluff of being a performer since you don't have to be a musician or actor to give rousing speeches. It seems to do everything I want without having the restrictive fluff of the archaeologist or annoying religion requirements of the dervish so why all the hate for that archtype?
Also, if I was to still go with a fullcaster, how effective would a Kitsune Oracle even be? Sorc is a bit too squishy for my tastes, but an Oracle gets a d8 HD and good AC since as a Kitsune 14 dex will not be hard to get and with a suit of scale mail I can get a respectable 17 AC post dex at level 1...not to mention I'll have self-healing abilities(because who in the world chooses to cast inflicts other then bones or JuJu Oracles?) and possibly an animal companion to take blows for me if I decide to go with the Lunar mystery.(which is one of my top two mystery choices right now, the other being Outer Rifts for all the battlefield control goodness and cool demonic fluff.)
Sidestep Secret ends any Dodge issues.
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Arcane Bloodline is flavorless and bland. Powerful, but totally devoide of any awesomeness other then the fact it's mechanically good. I much prefer the bloodlines that are both effective but also flavorful, and if I where to do a sorcerer I'd likely go with either the serpentine, Undead or Fey bloodline.
However, I've pretty much 100% ruled out sorcerer due to survivability issues, and have decided I'd go with either an archtype'ed bard or Oracle. I like the looks of the arcane duelist archtype, but people don't seem to be giving it any kind of love, here.....so I'd like to know why that is before I settle on it.
EDIT: Ninja'ed. Not a fan of the Lore Mystery from a fluff standpoint, sadly. I do, however, like the fluff of the Lunar Mystery, which has a similar ability though I'd be taking the animal companion rather then the AC boost at level 1. However, an animal companion goes a lot farther survivability-wise then the AC boost dose since it means I never have to worry about not having a meat shield to team with....I have one built into my class thats with me at all times.
However, I really like both the fluff and crunch of the outer rifts mystery...but it dosen't have any kind of cha-to-ac ability. Is 17 enough AC to survive at level 1 relatively well even in a no-meat-shield party?
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Kitsune Oracle is more than ready and able to rock. Took me less than 5 minutes to make one in HeroLabs; here's a mock-up.
Four Mirror Armor and Heavy Wooden Shield: AC 19.
Caretaker Trait: +1 to Heal, and use Heal for Day Jobs.
Noble Scion (of War) along with the Reactionary Trait for +5 Initiative.
Light Crossbow for ranged goodness.
Cure Light Wounds (Touch healing) and Stabilize (Close range) to keep up your other party members.
Cause Fear (DC 14) for control.
Command (DC 15)- Flee! -- keeps you safe. And uses the Kitsune +1 DC on Enchantment spells.
Ghost Sound (DC 13) to potentially scare away someone (was that a lion I just heard?)
Lore Mystery with Lore Keeper to use that Charisma for your Knowledge-based checks.
Check it out:
Test Character
Male kitsune oracle 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 192)
N Medium humanoid (kitsune, shapechanger)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +1 Dex, +2 shield)
hp 11 (1d8+3)
Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee bite +1 (1d4+1)
Ranged light crossbow +1 (1d8/19-20)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 3/day:dancing lights
Oracle Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st (4/day): cause fear (DC 14), command (DC 15), cure light wounds
. . 0 (at will): detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound (DC 13), mage hand, read magic, stabilize
. . Mystery Lore
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 17
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 12
Feats Noble Scion Of War[ISWG]
Traits caretaker, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -4 (-8 to jump), Heal +6, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (religion) +7; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics
Languages Common, Sylvan
SQ change shape, kitsune magic, oracle's curse (haunted), revelation (lore keeper)
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds; Other Gear four-mirror, heavy wooden shield, crossbow bolts (20), light crossbow, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, candle (10), flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), mess kit, pot, soap, sunrod, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 1 gp
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Special Abilities
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Change Shape (Su) Assume a single human form.
Haunted Retrieving stored gear is a Standard action or worse, dropped items land 10' away.
Lore Keeper (Ex) Knowledge Skills become CHA-based.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
...heck, drop the Cure Light Wounds potion to have 50 more gold to spend at 1st level.
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In a home game, sure, because you know SOMEBODY will be playing a meat shield. However, this is for PFS, which means totally random tables and the distinct possibility there will be NO meat shield in your party. You have to take that into account, here.
Also, nice character, but I do not like the lore mystery...at all. I much prefer Lunar, Outer Rifts, Dark Tapestry, Occult and pre-eratta JuJu(though thats not PFS legal because errata and Necromancy. XD) from a fluff standpoint, since those strike me as the most "dark" mysteries other then bones(which is really just an inferior JuJu.)
Also, how in the world are you affording four mirror armor at level 1 without any prestige?
EDIT: Just realized four mirror armor is NOT a magic item, but rather an eastern armor I never heard of. Alright...that makes me a bit more comfortable...I don't need to take an "exotic armor proficiency" type feat to wear it without penalties because it's eastern armor, do I?
Dude
stop futzing about AC
your AC in general should be CR * 2 + 2, so 14 AC is a good benchmark for level 1.
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Lunar is only an available option in PFS play if you have the Blood of the Moon Player Companion; otherwise, it is not available to play in a Society game.
As a PFS GM, I rarely ask for books- but if you don't have your sources, then I'm going to have to ask you (politely) to leave. It's also a requirement listed in the Guide to Organized Play.
Another alternative: purchase a trained Tiger after your first scenario (I believe it's 325 gp).
-- S.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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I want an initiative booster at level 1 such as noble scion or improved initiative, so sadly toughness at level 1 is not an option without getting it as a bonus feat somehow. I suppose that means sorcerer is totally out from a survivability standpoint, correct? What about oracle, in that case? How survivable are oracles at level 1?
Not quite.
Step 1: Take toughness at first level.
Step 2: Get 3 XP with that character.
Step 3: Before playing the character with 3 XP (now second level) rebuild it to have Noble Scion or Improved Initiative at first level.
Step 4: Profit.
As for the more basic question, yes it is possible for a full sorc to survive level 1.
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Your attitude seems seriously off for a cooperative game.
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Yeah, I have the player companion for that mystery, as well as the book for the outer rifts mystery(and juju, though pre-eratta version is a no-go in PFS)....they are all in pdf form, mind you, but last time I PDFs are considered legit sources for PFS as long as you print out the relevant pages...so the source thing is not an issue, here.
I've played and watched full casters in PFS that lived through level 1 just fine. Don't worry about it.
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I have played a few casters in PFS. I stated them all out a 1st level. None of them died. None of them ha anything special at frist level to survive other than the normal full-caster stuff. This was all before re-training was allowed at second level.
Survivability is about putting yourself in the right position and not having some bad luck - not about stacking a first level character with a bunch of tools just to survive first level. Besides, any close calls are good character-builders in developing background and attitude.
Just make sure to get some healing in terms of a potion after the first adventure, and/or a wand of CLW after the second. Everything else is gravy.
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Did you have a meat shield at level 1 though, Twells? How would you survive the table-with-no-meat-shield scenario? Thats what I'm most afraid of, and what I'd like the most advice on how to survive. Right now, the best bet for that seems to be an Oracle due to the fact they can get good AC and self-heal.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Zahra is level 3 -- she started out as a level 1 sorcerer. Now it helps that I am a sylvan sorcerer with an animal companion, but PFS is a team sport. Most of the time everyone will work together. At early levels, it seems like most of the group is melee anyways. Trust your team and work together.
If you get a table with two other wizards and a bard, though, haul out the barbarian or paladin pregen and substitute. Make that your backup plan. Your regular sorcerer got a cold or something, so she called in her old friend, Brute Force, to take her place.
Have fun with your kitsune sorcerer. Don't take hit points as your FCB -- take the enchantment bonus. It will rock your DCs.
Pick a bloodline that sings to you, and pick up one enchantment spell for each level of spells that you take. However, take other types of spells too. I like to try for a variety that either don't require saves, or hit different kinds of saving throws.
As soon as you get PP, you will want to pick up wands:
1) wand of cure light or infernal healing
2) wand of mage armor or wand of shield.
3) wand of something else that will let you hit -- magic missile is good, and you can spam it. It doesn't do much damage but it always hits and does not need a high DC to work.
4) wand of summon monster would also provide you a meat shield if you really need one.
Whatever you do, work with your team. This is a team game. Help them, and they'll help you!
Hmm
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I just don't find level 1 that lethal, from either side of the screen. It is usually a good idea to bring to the table a couple different characters, and then as a group figure out what everyone is bringing. So you don't end up with as you say, "no meat shield."
As a couple have said, take toughness and put ranks in intimidate. This works well for both oracles and sorcerers. Other good general advise for a squishy is don't dump con, hang towards the back, and don't be the trap smith.
The oracle has the added bonus of probably being able to heal ones self.
Not playing a goody two shoes is understandable, but playing a "dark and selfish" character doesn't seem align with the Pathfinder objectives of Explore, Cooperate, and Report.
Did you have a meat shield at level 1 though, Twells? How would you survive the table-with-no-meat-shield scenario? Thats what I'm most afraid of, and what I'd like the most advice on how to survive. Right now, the best bet for that seems to be an Oracle due to the fact they can get good AC and self-heal.
So, quick question: How exactly does having a big bad fighter protect you? It's not like he's going to be just standing in front of you all the time, and even if he was, archers will probably still have an easy shot on you.
"Mean shields" and tanks don't generally exist in Pathfinder, especially at level 1. They generally don't have enough feats to be very proficient at area control, and most characters will get downed to one lucky roll anyway.
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So, my question is thus: In pathfinder society, where you are not gurinteed a compitent meat shield every game, how survivable are fullcasters like sorcerers and oracles? Is their survivability too low to even worth considering without GM and/or Pre-gen credit to level boost them or are they survivable enough where I can play one straight from level 1 on up just fine? Any thoughts, opinions and shared experences on this matter would be nice.
My wizard and sorcerer have both managed just fine from level 1 with no difficulty.
My PFS oracle started with medium armor, a greatsword and an 18 strength. She killed everything that ran up to her. Most players don't even realize she's a full caster until she heals somebody or throws up a group buff.
In my home game: my oracle of battle is the party's meat shield. He is also the group healer.
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PFS you may rebuild your character before you reach level 2, so please, make good use of those rebuild rules to play something less squishy at lv 1 and become a full caster at lv 2.
sample template for a divine caster(human, racial mods added to str)::
Str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 14
if you are a cleric, switch cha and wis, tell the party you didnt take selective channeling and take toughness instead.
that gets you 13 hp at lv 1. If core only, buy scale mail, light wooden shield and a morningstar. You're rocking 18 ac, 16 flatfooted. You can tank handily if there be no fighter types at the table. I wouldn't want to try hit you at lv 1 if I were a monster...
Lets say arcane caster. Say an iconic elf wizard.
Str 10, dex 16, con 12, int 18, wis 10, cha 10.
elves get longbow prof, so feel free to get a longbow and shoot at people. Have acid splash and daze as your cantrips so there's always something for you to do. Buy an acid flask(requires adventurers armory), so you do 1d3+1 with your acid splash. If you're an evoker wizard, hey you even get 7 force missiles free for the day! Make sure theres always someone between you and the baddies, if they're shooting at you, drop prone for the +4 to ac, bringing it up to 17. Take toughness, you have 13 ac, 11 hp.
If you're not an elf. Burn a trait for heirloom weapon so you can use a longbow. You can retrain it later anyway.
Did you have a meat shield at level 1 though, Twells? How would you survive the table-with-no-meat-shield scenario? Thats what I'm most afraid of, and what I'd like the most advice on how to survive. Right now, the best bet for that seems to be an Oracle due to the fact they can get good AC and self-heal.So, quick question: How exactly does having a big bad fighter protect you? It's not like he's going to be just standing in front of you all the time, and even if he was, archers will probably still have an easy shot on you.
"Mean shields" and tanks don't generally exist in Pathfinder, especially at level 1. They generally don't have enough feats to be very proficient at area control, and most characters will get downed to one lucky roll anyway.
Low level is rough without any melee types. The early levels are where martials shine. They'll protect the squishies by cutting down the bad guys, not so much by actually blocking. For the first couple levels, other than healing, all martial parties work brutally. All caster ones don't - They can't lay down the hurt fast enough, don't have the defenses or evasion magic yet, can't summon up their own blockers, etc.
Note: more role than class. Archers can be a problem at low level as well, if they can't switch-hit. Casters built for melee can be fine.
Certainly you need a martial character of some kind, I'm just not sure that a "meat shield" is really related to a caster character's survivability. If the enemy wants a caster dead, they're probably better trying to use ranged attack, evocation spells, etc.
I'm not really going to question martial characters being effective. I don't think you need a character with levels in a martial class (animal companions/eidolons work fine), but they certainly simplify things. I'm just not convinced having one is really going to be a boon for a sorcerer's defense.
Actually, the characters with the lowest survivability at my usual haunt are the barbarians. They rage, rush in, and then take a great-axe critical hit to the face, dying instantly.
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Actually, the characters with the lowest survivability at my usual haunt are the barbarians. They rage, rush in, and then take a great-axe critical hit to the face, dying instantly.
Orcs are just the worst thing to run into as a level 1 party. "Oh, look, 3 high strength enemies with effectively double their listed hit points, and 2-handed weapons with high crit ranges. I can't imagine how this could end badly"