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Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
If you are fighting monsters, most of the loot you should get is close to weightless. Starter gear is the notable exception. And it is an exception.

1. This is a benefit to starter gear only dropping off very low level mobs.

2. Salvage Items are quite heavy, relative to the materials they can substitute for. That said, Salvage Items are definitely "low value" compared to Recipes and Expendables.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:


The solution to that problem is "work with another player". In other words, "banditry" is not a good fit for solo play.

I suspect the other player would want to engage in banditry or NPC slaying too, so he would wear some kind of armor if he isn't a arcane spell user.

We will end with wizard porters?

I know that some of my objections are born of some bad experience at the end of my period playing EVE, but I fear the birth of a peons/porters adventurers/lords system of play.

Goblin Squad Member

RHMG Animator wrote:
Talonguard is a freaking Iron Works, and gem maker settlement, Coal, Iron, and gems right at our doorstep, but next to NOTHING else.

It never occurred to me before, but I hope the heavy resources are as evenly distributed as the overall resources are.

If almost everything that comes from plains hexes has a lower weight, while the things they have to bring from afar are heavy, it will put the groups on the plains at a resource disadvantage, even if they have teh same "value" of resources.

Goblin Squad Member

Salvage items may be heavy. Discard them when it's not worth carrying them.

I will point out that salvage items might just appear to be heavy for now. Wait until we seriously start harvesting hexes. Premium ores weigh 0.5 each. Second and third (and fourth?) cuts will weigh more. If a fourth rate ore weighs 1.4 EP, those broken weapons at 1.3 EP look pretty good as ore substitutes.

otoh, Miners and Smelters are Con-based. They'll likely put quite a few points against Encumbrance.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:


It never occurred to me before, but I hope the heavy resources are as evenly distributed as the overall resources are.

60% of all the coal available in game is in the highlands north of Thornkeep. You will find coal in the low lands in the trash heaps.

Copper AFAIK is found only in the hills south west of Thornkeep.

CEO, Goblinworks

Diego Rossi wrote:


I suspect the other player would want to engage in banditry or NPC slaying too, so he would wear some kind of armor if he isn't a arcane spell user.
We will end with wizard porters?

You should end with some people contributing to the group by carrying and managing inventory, and some people contributing by fighting and killing. If all you do is recruit for people who want to do the killin' you'll be at a stark disadvantage to the people who recruit for a more balanced mix of player types.

Goblin Squad Member

Will there eventually be some sort of refining kit/camp available to improve the quality of ore and compress it, similar to the mineral/ore compression you can now do in EVE ?

CEO, Goblinworks

Not something we've spent any meaningful time considering yet.

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:

....

60% of all the coal available in game is in the highlands north of Thornkeep. You will find coal in the low lands in the trash heaps.

...

Not True, there are mineral Nodes a plenty surrounding Talonguard and it's neighbours to the east and north.

Goblin Squad Member

RHMG Animator wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
60% of all the coal available in game is in the highlands north of Thornkeep. You will find coal in the low lands in the trash heaps.
Not True, there are mineral Nodes a plenty surrounding Talonguard and it's neighbours to the east and north.

I think he means us. A lot of people don't realize that Talonguard is South of Thornkeep.

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:


It never occurred to me before, but I hope the heavy resources are as evenly distributed as the overall resources are.
60% of all the coal available in game is in the highlands north of Thornkeep. You will find coal in the low lands in the trash heaps.

I don't think you quite got me there. If the only things we need lots of that are heavy were (for example) Coal, Iron, Precious/Semi-Precious metals, and Logs, then people in the forest would have to import coal and metals. People in the mountains would have to import coal and logs, people in the highlands would have to import metal and logs. But people in the plains would have to import coal and metal and logs, leaving them at a disadvantage.

I'm saying each hex type should have a "weight-share" of heavy items that are critical to everyone, so that no one terrain-region is at a weight-import disadvantage to the others

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

.....

I think he means us. A lot of people don't realize that Talonguard is South of Thornkeep.

Talonguard is 13 hexes West of Emerald Spire, and is South-West-West of ThornKeep.

Talonguard is Not directly South of ThornKeep.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
I'm saying each hex type should have a "weight-share" of heavy items that are critical to everyone, so that no one terrain-region is at a weight-import disadvantage to the others

Is it just weight-share, or weight-distance-share?

I think trying to explicitly balance hex-by-hex with resource amounts is likely in the too-hard category. Or rather, it's in the there's-an-easier-way category.

Settlements will be good at what they can be good at. By the end of EE, some area like Brighthaven/Keeper's Pass might be starved for coal and survives simply on its control of the gold markets. Having access to yew might be important in the early game, and then settlements discover they really need maple. Or oak.

I think the way the settlements were seeded was not ideal (here are 33 pokes. There's a pig in each poke. Make your decisions.), but in the end, the map *had* to be seeded. We all might end up somewhere other than where we started.

Goblin Squad Member

RHMG Animator wrote:
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

.....

I think he means us. A lot of people don't realize that Talonguard is South of Thornkeep.

Talonguard is 13 hexes West of Emerald Spire, and is South-West-West of ThornKeep.

Talonguard is Not directly South of ThornKeep.

No, but it is south of a line through Thornkeep. My point, though, is that I think that when he referred to the "highlands north of Thornkeep," he was talking about those of us in the "North-West," including Talonguard.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
I think the way the settlements were seeded was not ideal (here are 33 pokes. There's a pig in each poke. Make your decisions.), but in the end, the map *had* to be seeded. We all might end up somewhere other than where we started.

I agree. I merely wondered if, among all the other resource balancing decisions that have been made, GW considered the distribution of high-encumbrance resources. If not, (i.e. if one hex type has few important and heavy resources, so it's easy to travel there, harvest, and then return home) it's possible that one hex type will become by default a less desirable place to have a settlement, leaving large sections of the map mostly empty.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

RHMG Animator wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

....

60% of all the coal available in game is in the highlands north of Thornkeep. You will find coal in the low lands in the trash heaps.

...

Not True, there are mineral Nodes a plenty surrounding Talonguard and it's neighbours to the east and north.

Faulty memory, it is 55% :P

Lee Hammock wrote:

An important distinction to keep in mind: I said that gold could only be mined in the Southern Thorncrags. I did not say it could not be scavenged elsewhere. Same with silver and copper.

And it is supposed to be Thorncrags...because I think it sounds better.

Forgehelm is in the Southern Echo Peaks.

The hills in the NW of the map have approximately 55% of the coal in the game. So in 60 hexes out of 900, you have half of all of a major resource in the game. Plus 50% of the bloodstone, 70% of the brimstone and juniper berries, 66% of the cinnabar, 90% of the saltpeter, and all of the parafin wax, quicklime, aqua mortis, and aqua fortis in the game.

All of the resources in the game show up where they do not just because of terrain and region, but also projected demand. We have a bunch of spreadsheets to try and figure out how much of each resource players will want, and gold for example never gets a lot of demand so it's never going to be present in a wide swath of hexes. Coal on the other hand is needed in such vast quantities we can't restrict it to only the hill hexes we have present on the map unless those hexes only produced coal...and maybe not even then. It's easier to restrict off higher tier stuff, thus the hills are the place to go for tier 2 and 3 chemicals. These demand numbers will be updated as we see actual demand in game (on the next build you'll get a refined resource chart that does just that, putting more copper into the world and less silver).

The hills in the area extending from Ossian Crossing to the west of Forgehelm are exactly 60 hexes if you don't count the half hexes, so I am fairly sure he is speaking of that area.

Another nice tidbit:

Stephen Cheney wrote:

Whenever my recent tweaks go in, the general rule is:

* Ores and Logs are 1/2 to 2 encumbrance
* Cloths and Leathers are 1/4 to 1 encumbrance
* Chemicals, Essences, and Gems are 1/25 to 4/25 encumbrance

So you can carry twice as many cloths/leathers of the same concentration as ores/logs, and whole bunches of the smaller things.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

With the current server population having 55% of a resource in an area that is less than 7,4% of the map don't make a big difference, but as population rise I think we will see it.
Coal depletion will hit the other settlement very fast (it depend on how it replenishes, it was a fixed rated, reduced if you exhausted the local resources, not it is a % rate from what I get).

Resource wars are an intended mechanic, I only hope no one will be at a special disadvantage in them.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:


Resource wars are an intended mechanic, I only hope no one will be at a special disadvantage in them.

Settlement leaders should have looked into advantages and disadvantages when selecting their settlement spot during land rush.

I took into account
1) near Emerald Spire
2) likely resources
3) neighbours
4) space to expand / being in the way of expansion
5) accessibility
6) distance to missing resources
7) owners of lands with resources you don't have

Not everything was known 100% before. I wasn't aware you can get ore in scrap heaps. Copper is a surprise - but now we go to micro management.
You could estimate time to travel for the most important resources at the outset - wood, iron, coal and you should have planned for it.

There also has been time since week 1 of the land rush to make connections to balance out areas not covered. As declared neutral group (politically) I was acutely aware of this from day 1.

And as soon as day 1 in the game I scoured the area to map resources and to plan an economy.

But what do I know? I'm only a naive TT RPG gamer with no PvP MMO experience ;)

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

No experience in MMO beside EVE.

"Likely resources": when you choose your location did you know that pine logs are an indispensable ingredient for tier 1 wand and staffs and Yew for bows (and arrows in the future)?
I think you did as we did, tried to guess. Later comers don't even have that luxury.

I have no idea what is crafted with "90% of the saltpeter, and all of the parafin wax, quicklime, aqua mortis, and aqua fortis" but 2 settlements control that stuff.

My experience in EVE is that alliances changes and today friend can be tomorrow enemy,

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I hope I didn't come over too snarky or arrogant. But the whole design of the map is to give each settlement unique advantages and unique disadvantages.

Will they be perfectly balanced?

No - that would be impossible to do.

But you also have to take into account that different advantages / disadvantages are valued differently by each company.

Golgotha is as close to the Emerald Spire as we are. They chose defensibility and access to iron. I rated accessibility higher.

Emerald Lodge is nicely central - see it as advantage (close to everyone in case of trade) or disadvantage (close to everyone in case of being attacked)

And no - I had no idea about a split into yew/pine or oak/maple.

The whole game demands that there is movement of goods due to the design. Distance (speed to move), encumbrance (number of resources carried) and optimization (transport of raw vs refined vs crafted items) will all decide on the balance.

I don't think we will know before we play in EE for a while - at least until tier 2 items are common - how close a balance the current values represent.

Don't underestimate players to find options how to circumnavigate road blocks. Do you really need to move iron and coal acroos half the map - or can you manufacture a shiny +3 weapon and transport only several of these instead?

I don't think anyone will know how this plays out until a real economy has started and real politics are done. Right now you get a lot just for free and not enough people are active and no looting is implemented - so what you see now won't be representative.

But while I'm writing about solo play it also means that even a settlement can't be 'solo'. Even they need other settlements to work with.

Goblin Squad Member

Thod, well written!

There is a persistent wish for everything to be equal and accessible for everyone in a certain type of gamer, I think it is because they are less experienced with unsymmetrical gaming, or have a bad experience at least.

This is a sandbox, an experiment, it will need fine-tuning and will certainly be changing over time. But it NEED to have differences in order to create flows and gradients in order to encourage dynamics.
Without the dynamics there will certainly be a bland game and dependent on the escalations to be attractive.

There will probably be Settlement that will be abandoned just like there are IRL, but as long as the environments non conformity not actively stops someone from playing whatever choices that individual makes.

I can just say, Roll with the blows, Embrace change and Grow with the experience ...

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:

I hope I didn't come over too snarky or arrogant. But the whole design of the map is to give each settlement unique advantages and unique disadvantages.

Will they be perfectly balanced?

No - that would be impossible to do.

That's perfectly reasonable, Thod, and I don't think anyone expects perfection or even close to it, but there should probably* be a general balance between terrain types, not for the good of the individual settlements, but for the good of the game. If it turns out in the long run that a large swath of the map has a clear disadvantage over other terrain types, that has far-reaching implications.

* One terrain type at a disadvantage might be exactly what GW desires. If it isn't, we need to give them a chance to think about it while they can still correct for it without extra work. Testing the mechanics, as well as the code, is why we're here.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

@Cal

Mountain better plains
Defense
Iron (metals) -> weapon production
Stone (not yet implemented)

Plains better mountain
Ease of gathering
Movement
Hides (leather)
Food (not yet implemented)

Being in the center better as at the fringe
Shorter distance to all other settlements
More opportunity to recruit starter players

Being at the fringe better as in the center
opportunity to expand once OE starts

Short term advantage mountain
Close to copper
Long term advantage mountain
Close to Lodestone

I could go on. And this isn't even including parameters introduced by the players themselves that all have advantages/disadvantages unrelated to the design of the game

Neighbour is an evil settlement
Neighbour is an expansive settlement
Neighbour is a deserted settlement
Neighbour belongs to own alliance
Neighbour belongs to hostile alliance
Neighbour is bigger/smaller as own settlement

So far I don't see any of the settlements as being unplayable because of game features or political features. Spot T might have been the closest early on - as it was perceived as a doomed spot in the shadow of Golgotha and close to Aragon. But that is for political reasons and not resources.

We won't know until we are in the game which spots turn out to be best. GW has done enough when player behaviour and politics trump the landscape. And if they ensure that player behaviour and politics doesn't end up with a single alliance dominating everything.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:

I hope I didn't come over too snarky or arrogant. But the whole design of the map is to give each settlement unique advantages and unique disadvantages.

No, sorry if I gave that impression or if I sounded snarky. I really like your input.

Thod wrote:


Don't underestimate players to find options how to circumnavigate road blocks. Do you really need to move iron and coal acroos half the map - or can you manufacture a shiny +3 weapon and transport only several of these instead?

I don't think anyone will know how this plays out until a real economy has started and real politics are done. Right now you get a lot just for free and not enough people are active and no looting is implemented - so what you see now won't be representative.

I am sure that we will find some sort of dynamic equilibrium. The problem is that it will start to form only after we have a functioning economy, and that require a decent level of server population.

That equilibrium will change every time a feature is introduced or changed.

Container are introduced and basic carrying capacity reduced?
Heavy armor become less convenient. Ease of transportation change.
Vehicles or mounts are introduced? Ease of transportation change.
Gusher are introduced? Harvesting resources change and that changes a tons of other things as a consequence.

Those changes are a good thing as they will allow the game to evolve. Simply GW should consider (at far as possible) what are the consequences of the changes.

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:
@Cal...

I don't think we are disagreeing about the things you think we are disagreeing about.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Thod wrote:
@Cal...
I don't think we are disagreeing about the things you think we are disagreeing about.

I disagree! :p

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

TALE OF A VOYAGE

Encumbrance discussion

I did an involuntary test. Just after the activation of encumbrance I moved to the Thorncrags to gather coal. Thanks to the gathering bug I found only 9 units of coal but was able to gather a lot of useful salvage. 15 units of beast pets for 15 encumbrance, enough goblin stuff to have the green to make clerk ink and so on. I moved the interesting stuff to Thornkeep, dropped what was immediately useful, gathered some other stuff I had in the bank, dropped the heavy armor a put on a light armor (I haven't found cloth armor in the NPC drops after the first days and hadn't the stuff to make one. The AH was broken, so light armor).

All inclusive I was about half over encumbered.

I moved to the south of Thornkeep then logged out.

This evening I started the trek from 1 hex south of Thornkeep to Keeper Pass.
It took me 3 hours to do it.
Sure I did spent some time killing easy mobs and then ditching the stuff I did get from them to limit the weight, but the time killers were the low pace and the need to pass big clumps of NPC using stealth as it is impossible to avoid them using speed when encumbered.

Drifting away from a gate at a few meters/second while under cloak is something I have done in EVE. I didn't enjoyed it so much that I want to repeat it in PFO against NPC.

The things I mowed weren't optimized for transportation, as I had no way to turn them into high level crafted items, as I lacked some of the components and/or the skills, but they mostly were stuff that is difficult to find with the exception of specific locations, so stuff that was worth keeping and moving to a location where it could be used by my guild, at least in my eyes.

But 3 hours to do that ....
I play to have fun, not to work.

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:

This evening I started the trek from 1 hex south of Thornkeep to Keeper Pass.

It took me 3 hours to do it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Omg, you'd know how rough it would be just starting this journey. What were you thinking? You could have left behind mats/items in the bank until you could move properly, go all the way to Keeper's Pass, run back to Thornkeep to get the stuff you left and return to Keeper's Pass a second time and still have done it in less time than 3 hours.

This was entirely your own fault and I have no pity for you.

If you want to play in such a difficult fashion, don't go complaining about the results.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Probably, Raven, but it was worth checking it. Once.

So the real carrying capacity is 40, less weapon and armor.
To be reduced to 20 as soon as the containers are implemented.

Trading will be "fun".

Goblin Squad Member

Fastest way to get to Brighthaven and KP from TK is to head west from TK to the nearby mountains then run south along the cliffs whilst staying about half way up the cliff face. This substantially reduces the "sneak past escalation" issue.

Just saying :D

Goblin Squad Member

I'm going to have to agree with Diego.
Even the current 40 is limiting.

I would ask that GW keep the 40 (or at at worst 30) when they do implement containers.

Goblin Squad Member

I spent 2 plus hours clearing an escalation (from 7.?% to 0%) near KreuzBernstein. Mobs were risen skeletons. My character had 42 encumbrance per bar. I was wearing light + spear + focus.

After about an hour and a half, I started feeling the encumbrance (I was slow to run sometimes) and I checked inventory was at about 1.3-1.4 bars. I dropped all of the junk like rogue kits and fighter trophies and starter weapons for cleric and mages. I regained the stuff quickly enough I just went to the village, banked a bunch of stuff and finished clearing.

2 Hours worth of clearing was probably 2 full bars. It's not worth the risk to slow yourself unless you are playing pack mule and have guards. In any case it was easy enough to go thru inventory and drop low value stuff, imo.

Goblin Squad Member

It takes about 24 days to buy one set of attack feats up to Attack Level 4, sufficient to use Tier 2+2 weapons.

It takes about 45 days for the smelter, tanner, and weaponsmith to have enough skills to make the first Tier 2+2 weapon.

It takes 1 1/2 days to buy levels 1-4 in Encumbrance. I expect almost every heavy fighter to eventually buy those 4 levels of that feat (ie, +8 encumbrance?). Any calculation of encumbrance should probably assume those levels are bought, unless the character is a brand new player.

Goblin Squad Member

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Urman wrote:


It takes 1 1/2 days to buy levels 1-4 in Encumbrance. I expect almost every heavy fighter to eventually buy those 4 levels of that feat (ie, +8 encumbrance?). Any calculation of encumbrance should probably assume those levels are bought, unless the character is a brand new player.

Yep.

However if it becomes a defacto default everyone maxes out in the first few weeks training it needs to be either:
- removed as a skill and just factored in to encumbrance
- or have its XP increased to make it a more meaningful choice
- or have a few more extra levels added at exponentially higher XP

OR all three of the above - basic levels just granted to a starter character, XP increased to be more significant and extra levels made available

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:

It takes about 24 days to buy one set of attack feats up to Attack Level 4, sufficient to use Tier 2+2 weapons.

It takes about 45 days for the smelter, tanner, and weaponsmith to have enough skills to make the first Tier 2+2 weapon.

It takes 1 1/2 days to buy levels 1-4 in Encumbrance. I expect almost every heavy fighter to eventually buy those 4 levels of that feat (ie, +8 encumbrance?). Any calculation of encumbrance should probably assume those levels are bought, unless the character is a brand new player.

For now the trainers are available only in crafter settlements, and for some strange reason the Freeholder trainer isn't always on. I have logged in Keeper Pass near him several time with my alt and sometime she is here, some time she isn't.

So:
- assuming that the new player know that there are encumbrance skills,
- where they can be found,
- get there at the right time of the day
isn't automatic.

In every instance it is 8 points: 1/5 of our current allowance, 2/5 after it is reduced. But after it is reduced it get us up to 28. Not much.

And you are forgetting the freeholder armor skill to use the strong back feat.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Diego Rossi wrote:
for some strange reason the Freeholder trainer isn't always on. I have logged in Keeper Pass near him several time with my alt and sometime she is here, some time she isn't.

That's because sometimes the Freeholder trainer is a dirty goblin and dies a horrible death. I'm not joking. It's a problem they are going to fix.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

LOL
I wish I will see that happening.

Goblin Squad Member

If the encumbrance is to benefit all that gathers are collecting, then make gathering achievements needed for higher levels.

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