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TL;DR I need help with a Half-Orc Exemplar archetype Brawler specializing in hitting stuff with a quarterstaff (with some group buff and skill utility) for society play.
This post will probably be pretty long. It will involve a number of rule questions, optimization inquiries, and general strategies involved while playing a TWF martial. I haven't played one since 2002, so I'm a bit out of the loop.
Stat Array:
STR - 18 (with racial bonus)
DEX - 16
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 10
CHA - 8
(I recognize that for min-maxing I should likely dump INT and CHA to 7, but I like to have slightly sub-optimal characters with broader utility, and CHA will help with my Bardic performances a bit)
Traits:
Fate's Favored (after all, I'm running Sacred Tattoo, and will get a Jingasa pretty early)
Freed Slave, +1 will saves never hurt anyone
Racial Alternate features:
Sacred Tattoo (+2 to all saves at level 1? Sign me up!)
Rock Climber
City Raised (I'll probably have ranks in Knowledge (Local)
Skilled - I never much cared about Darkvision. Carry an ioun torch for Aroden's sake.
Favored class bonuses will pretty much invariably go into HP, as I don't even have the Unarmed Strike Class feature, and I'm already getting 5 skill ranks/level.
Feats:
Here's where I have a lot of questions. While I flurry (quarterstaffs have the monk special feature, so I'm good there), I already get the benefits of TWF at second (I just hit second) and Improved TWF at 8th. I also get to deal full strength damage with my flurried strikes, so Double Slice seems unnecessary (though I may retrain something into it at 11th so I can take Two-Weapon Rend).
To know what I need to take, I really need to know how TWF style combines with Flurry of Blows. How many attacks do I get, and what penalties do I take? Also, am I eligible to take feats with TWF and ITWF given that I only benefit from them while I flurry?
My feat wish list is going to be Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), Weapon Specialization (quarterstaff), Power Attack, Iron Will, Two-Weapon Defense, Two Weapon Rend, Hammer the Gap, Improved Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff), and potentially the Step-Up chain. Any other ideas appreciated.
My 'flex feats' from Martial Flexibility will probably usually go into Teamwork feats of some sort, given that I can share them after 5th level. Outside of that, I'm short on ideas for what to do with them outside of grabbing the feats I've already listed before I can actually take them.
Also, any suggestions on the usage of the tactician and Bardic Performance abilities would be appreciated. Are there items or feats that are must haves involving these class features?
Thanks for taking the time.
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The brawler's flurry is not flurry of blows. It is using two-weapon fighting. So just count it that way. Normal number of attacks (from BAB) plus one attack for Two-weapon fighting feat, another for improved two-weapon fighting, and a third for greater two-weapon fighting.
Yes, you can take feats that depend on the two-weapon fighting chain of feats, but you can only use them when flurrying, as that's when you have the prerequisites.
Alternatively, you could take two-weapon fighting as a normal or fighter bonus feat, and have them all the time.
I don't like hammer the gap. You get a total bonus of 21 damage if all 7 of your attacks hit. Miss the fourth one(probably one at -15), and you get a total of 6 extra damage. Or just switch targets, and it is just as bad.
If you have a buddy, then the teamwork feat Lookout is awesome. If you go in the surprise round, you can share it with everyone else, and so the whole team goes. Sigh, that is, if there is a surprise round.
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Okay, that all sounds like good advice. Here's what I came up with:
1. [Class feature: Martial Flexibility 4/day, Call to Arms (get rid of allies flat-footed condition as move action)], Weapon Focus (quarterstaff)
2. [Class features: Two-Weapon Fighting while flurrying], Power Attack
3. [Class features: Inspire Courage (LVL+CHA modifier rounds/day)], Lingering Performance
4. [Class features: Knockout 1/day, +1 use Martial Flexibility]
5. [Class features: Inspiring Prowess (Tactician 1/day)], Practiced Tactician, Weapon Specialization (quarterstaff)
6. [Martial Flexibility 2, +1 use/day; Call to Arms as swift action]
7. Iron Will
8. [Class features: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting while flurrying, +1 use Martial Flexibility], Greater Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff)
9. [Class features: Tactician +1 use/day, Knockout +1 use/day], Step-Up
10. [Class features: Martial Flexibility 3, +1 use/day; Call to Arms as free action]
11. [Class features: Inspire Greatness], Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Rend
With Resplendent Uniform Coat and Commander’s Banner, I can get +2 uses of Tactician per day.
Also notable for Martial Flexibility + Tactician use is the teamwork feat Lastwall Phalanx. Against evil creatures a party could form a block and advance in with hefty sacred bonuses to AC and saves.
Thoughts?
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So, after looking at my build a while I was troubled by how much it would struggle to have a decent AC, and how much gold I would have to invest in Dex for almost the sole purpose of getting Greater TWF at 11th level. I think building for 11th is a bit silly, and I doubt there is a large benefit to my Expected Damage output by taking another attack at +1 BAB (and putting it and the other at a 2 penalty) at level 11.
Since I get TWF and ITWF without needing to meet the prerequisites (namely, having a high DEX), and I only gain a bonus feat at 11th, I think I'm going to take a 1 level dip in fighter at 1. This gives me the bonus feat earlier rather than later, allows me to redistribute my STAT array to a much healthier spread, and I can take the Defender of the Society trait for another easy AC boost.
I'm also going to go for Pummeling Strike, and probably use a good crit threat range weapon that can flurry (I think 19-20 is as good as that will get) plus Improved Critical. Critical focus is something I'm considering, but I don't think I have the slot for it. Might be something I grab with Martial Flexibility.
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STATS:
STR - 18 (with racial)
DEX - 12
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 14
CHA - 8
Traits:
Defender of the Society
Fortune's Favored
Feats:
1. [Class feature: Fighter Bonus Feat - Weapon Focus: Cestus], Iron Will
2. [Class feature: Martial Flexibility 4/day, Call to Arms (get rid of allies flat-footed condition as move action)]
3. [Class features: Two-Weapon Fighting while flurrying], Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack
4. [Class features: Inspire Courage (LVL+CHA modifier rounds/day)], Lingering Performance
5. [Class features: Knockout 1/day, +1 use Martial Flexibility] Weapon Specialization (Cestus)
6. [Class features: Inspiring Prowess (Tactician 1/day)], Pummeling Style
7. [Martial Flexibility 2, +1 use/day; Call to Arms as swift action]
8.
9. [Class features: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting while flurrying, +1 use Martial Flexibility], Greater Weapon Focus (Cestus), Improved Critical (Cestus)
10. [Class features: Tactician +1 use/day, Knockout +1 use/day]
11. [Class features: Martial Flexibility 3, +1 use/day; Call to Arms as free action] Two-Weapon Rend
Strap on some full plate, rock and roll.
An advantage of the original plan with quarterstaff is that it appears that you can get 2 handed power attack bonuses on all of your attacks.
Yes, you get 1.5x power attack on each hit. x3 power attack your 'TWF'.
This comes from the fact that power attack does not actually care about your strength bonus on a hit, but just that you are using a 2 handed weapon. Your flurry only deals with str, and never mentions power attack
This comes from the common practice with a monk's flurry (supported by a number of rules threads, and maybe some tangential FAQs). The brawler's flurry carries most of the same key language (such as the ability to flurry with 1 weapon, and discussion on what happens when you use 2 handed).
Whether the 2 handed power attack is worth it is up to you. Admittedly, the temple sword would be the best option since it can be both 2 handed and has 19-20/x2. But you are not actually proficient with those, so it would cost a feat/dip.
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An advantage of the original plan with quarterstaff is that it appears that you can get 2 handed power attack bonuses on all of your attacks.
Yes, you get 1.5x power attack on each hit. x3 power attack your 'TWF'.
This comes from the fact that power attack does not actually care about your strength bonus on a hit, but just that you are using a 2 handed weapon. Your flurry only deals with str, and never mentions power attack
This comes from the common practice with a monk's flurry (supported by a number of rules threads, and maybe some tangential FAQs). The brawler's flurry carries most of the same key language (such as the ability to flurry with 1 weapon, and discussion on what happens when you use 2 handed).
Whether the 2 handed power attack is worth it is up to you. Admittedly, the temple sword would be the best option since it can be both 2 handed and has 19-20/x2. But you are not actually proficient with those, so it would cost a feat/dip.
Actually, I think I could do it well by making my focused/specialized weapon a monk's spade at early levels, as without Pummeling Style, Improved Critical, and iteratives the build doesn't do much, while a Monk's Spade gets the benefits you're talking about, and can count as any type of damage (often important at low levels particularly). When I can get my high BAB requirement feats I can retrain things into cestus as they count as unarmed strikes, allowing Improved Unarmed dependent feats such as Pummeling Style to operate.
When I can get my high BAB requirement feats I can retrain things into cestus as they count as unarmed strikes, allowing Improved Unarmed dependent feats such as Pummeling Style to operate.
...are you basing that off of a recent rules change?... because everything on the rules forums that I've seen with the cestus comes down to saying 'It is not an unarmed strike, it is just a monk weapon'.
So as far as I am aware, it does not qualify for pummeling style.
If I am wrong, I can fully understand. I just want to see it for myself, if you happen to know where it says so (since I've seen to many threads arguing this)
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Pummeling Style works with Unarmed Strikes ONLY. Even if you are using unarmed damage with your cestus through close combat master it is not an unarmed strike and you cannot use them with pummeling style. If you are using the weapon's enhancement bonus or the weapon's crit profile, you are using the weapon and not an unarmed strike.
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Pummeling Style works with Unarmed Strikes ONLY. Even if you are using unarmed damage with your cestus through close combat master it is not an unarmed strike and you cannot use them with pummeling style. If you are using the weapon's enhancement bonus or the weapon's crit profile, you are using the weapon and not an unarmed strike.
Can you point me to an FAQ confirming that? The text of the feat makes no mention of unarmed strike specificity. The 'fluff' in the feat description says 'one devastating punch', but a cestus (like brass knuckles) is a weapon you punch with. RAW it works, and given the brawler's affinity for the fighter close weapon group, I think it works RAI as well.
All that said, if the developers have specifically said something to the contrary, my reasoning matters not.
Pummeling Style works with Unarmed Strikes ONLY. Even if you are using unarmed damage with your cestus through close combat master it is not an unarmed strike and you cannot use them with pummeling style. If you are using the weapon's enhancement bonus or the weapon's crit profile, you are using the weapon and not an unarmed strike.
Can you point me to an FAQ confirming that? The text of the feat makes no mention of unarmed strike specificity. The 'fluff' in the feat description says 'one devastating punch', but a cestus (like brass knuckles) is a weapon you punch with. RAW it works, and given the brawler's affinity for the fighter close weapon group, I think it works RAI as well.
All that said, if the developers have specifically said something to the contrary, my reasoning matters not.
I can gleefully point you to the FAQ right: here. It is in fact currently 1/3 of the FAQs for that book.
My glee has nothing to do with you. It comes from the fact that I was one of the more vocal opponents against he loose interpretation of the feat in the rules forum. I am heavily affected (to the point of twitching) since I had to read arguments where people argued that a punch can be done with a spear.
Anyway, due to that FAQ, it is only unarmed strikes. And for good reason- the stuff about criticals would be insane for anything that isn't 20/x2. You would be critting with your whole full attack more than 1/2 the time...BEFORE improved critical if I remember right. With it, the cestus would full attack crit 79% of the time.
My math might be a bit off with the expanded critical stuff though. It all comes the fact that you can threaten a crit with your last iterative, but confirm with your highest BAB (Which can be near auto hit, depending). But expanded crit things might not threaten a crit if you need a natural 20 to hit (but unarmed strikes normally only threaten on a natural 20). Still, it gets rather crazy, overall.
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Pummeling Style works with Unarmed Strikes ONLY. Even if you are using unarmed damage with your cestus through close combat master it is not an unarmed strike and you cannot use them with pummeling style. If you are using the weapon's enhancement bonus or the weapon's crit profile, you are using the weapon and not an unarmed strike.
Can you point me to an FAQ confirming that? The text of the feat makes no mention of unarmed strike specificity. The 'fluff' in the feat description says 'one devastating punch', but a cestus (like brass knuckles) is a weapon you punch with. RAW it works, and given the brawler's affinity for the fighter close weapon group, I think it works RAI as well.
All that said, if the developers have specifically said something to the contrary, my reasoning matters not.
I can gleefully point you to the FAQ right: here. It is in fact currently 1/3 of the FAQs for that book.
My glee has nothing to do with you. It comes from the fact that I was one of the more vocal opponents against he loose interpretation of the feat in the rules forum. I am heavily affected (to the point of twitching) since I had to read arguments where people argued that a punch can be done with a spear.
Anyway, due to that FAQ, it is only unarmed strikes. And for good reason- the stuff about criticals would be insane for anything that isn't 20/x2. You would be critting with your whole full attack more than 1/2 the time...BEFORE improved critical if I remember right. With it, the cestus would full attack crit 79% of the time.
My math might be a bit off with the expanded critical stuff though. It all comes the fact that you can threaten a crit with your last iterative, but confirm with your highest BAB (Which can be near auto hit, depending). But expanded crit things might not threaten a crit if you need a natural 20 to hit (but unarmed strikes normally only threaten on a natural 20)....
Your math isn't far from the truth, by my calculations a full flurry at 17-20 threat range with 6 attacks (very feasible at 11th level on a flurry) has a 74% chance of getting a crit. Put haste on top and you get to 83%. With a 19-20 crit range (Improved Critical with unarmed) you go down to 43%, 57% with haste on top.
It's a shame the critical nonsense got included, as this would have been the first consistent way for melee martials to get past DR/hardness.
In any case this is exactly why I made this thread. I guess I'll be going with the monk's spade.
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It's a shame the critical nonsense got included, as this would have been the first consistent way for melee martials to get past DR/hardness.
I'm ecstatic the "critical nonsense" got included, because it is the only thing that allows unarmed monks to be competent in doing mobile damage.
There is plenty of ways for melee martials to get past DR/Hardness. An adamantine weapon easily affordable by the time it becomes an issue. Weapon blanches are cheap. If you are really concerned about bypassing DR/Hardness without the use of materials, then there is the Martial Artist Monk and Steel Breaker Brawler that can both do so with anything thanks to sense weakness.
It's a shame the critical nonsense got included, as this would have been the first consistent way for melee martials to get past DR/hardness.I'm ecstatic the "critical nonsense" got included, because it is the only thing that allows unarmed monks to be competent in doing mobile damage.
There is plenty of ways for melee martials to get past DR/Hardness. An adamantine weapon easily affordable by the time it becomes an issue. Weapon blanches are cheap. If you are really concerned about bypassing DR/Hardness without the use of materials, then there is the Martial Artist Monk and Steel Breaker Brawler that can both do so with anything thanks to sense weakness.
Oh, but the whole '1 hit' thing was there just to solve that major problem of unarmed strikes (since they usually have to rely on some class thing to get past material DR, and that is usually at least a bit late).
Heck, since effectively you turn DR/20 into DR/3, you might even be able to skip the amulet of mighty fists and just get a spellcaster to do greater magical fang/weapon instead. Pearls of power to open up your casters' spell slots are often a lot cheaper than the amulet.
But anyway, even without critical stuff, unarmed builds can be great. At least monk/bralwer ones. Mostly since they can get full power attack on both hands, which helps edge out their damage. Admittedly, most of the numbers I look at are for sohei (who have weapon training, and can grab gloves of dueling AND brawling armor...which means up to +7 attack and damage).
And now with pummeling style, you can throw on the horn of the Criosphynx feat, which lets 2 handers (and unarmed monks, oddly; the feat even insert itself onto their bonus feat list) get x2 str bonus in damage rolls while charging. So even without the crit stuff, there are ways to trick yourself out.
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I'm ecstatic the "critical nonsense" got included, because it is the only thing that allows unarmed monks to be competent in doing mobile damage.There is plenty of ways for melee martials to get past DR/Hardness. An adamantine weapon easily affordable by the time it becomes an issue. Weapon blanches are cheap. If you are really concerned about bypassing DR/Hardness without the use of materials, then there is the Martial Artist Monk and Steel Breaker Brawler that can both do so with anything thanks to sense weakness.
Blanches are cheap, but only really effective for archers. On a melee weapon they only last one hit, and its unlikely you'll be fighting near campfires often enough that you can apply them in combat. Materials based DR is also not the kind that typically worries me, as a straight enhancement can ameliorate that problem, but rather DR/- or DR/weapon type. Archers don't really need worry about DR once they get clustered shot, but a rapier specialist will always be twiddling their thumbs as a full-round action during ooze encounters and the like. That's why I'm glad the monk spade exists. It's a bit disappointing that brawlers don't get proficiency with all monk weapons, but doesn't really effect me as I'm dipping fighter. C'est la vie.
Oh, one last question. Can a brawler take Two Weapon Rend at 11th without taking Double Slice? We alrwady get the benefits of that feat during a flurry, but the benefits are explicitly restated rather than worded as "gain the benefits of the D o uble Slice feat". It would be disappointing if not, as it wpuld just be a feat tax for the brawler if they need take it.
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Eh, the DR issue is mostly mitigated by a combination of Ki Fist and Enhancmeent bonuses from an AMOF. Although as I said, a Martial Artist can easily ignore all DR and Hardness with sense weakness.
Pummeling Style just lets a monk/brawler deal with it earlier.
Sure, but those are class specific features. No feat exist that a variety of melee classes/builds can benefit from as an archer does from clustered shot.
True, but with weapon blanches, adamantine, and two-handed power attack melee classes don't need a clustered shot mechanic.
Unarmed builds do though, or at least they benefit from it greatly. Especially non monk/brawler unarmed builds.
I know, the idea seems odd, but hey, pummeling style just delays entry for non monk/brawlers. So things like fighters or rangers are perfectly legitimate options. And honestly- it would take forever for them to see past even silver/cold iron if they just used the amulet of mighty fists. I mean, a +3 is an unreasonable investment until about...level 12, if you go by wealth by level (level 9-10 with crafting). So getting past that at level 6-7 seems like a godsend (and they are getting pseudo pounce at the time when the amulet is affordable)
And unfortunately, weapon blanches are not an option for unarmed builds (the whole 'heated over an open fire' thing)
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True, but with weapon blanches, adamantine, and two-handed power attack melee classes don't need a clustered shot mechanic.
I disagree. Blanches only last for one use (10 arrows for an archer, so even more ranged/martial disparity) and the action economy of reapplying, not to mention the fire, make multiple uses/combat unreasonable. Adamantine gets you past hardness and DR adamantine, but not damage type, alignment, non-negatable, or other materials.
Total bonus damage for a 30 STR power attacker two-handing at lvl 16-19 is 30. An archer is likely at 20 STR and deadly aiming, so they're only at 15. At DR 20 their damage is anout equal at this level (120-80 vs 60-20). So, fair. The issue is much more relevant at low-level (i play almost exclusively in society) where a fighters strength bonus + two handing power attack is around 18, and the archer is getting +9, but the DR is pretty similar (as DR doesnt scale much) and the archer has more arrows than a two hander has slashes.
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Two more thoughts on this build, or what may be another option:
1. The cestus has a curious property that allows their wielder to "count their unarmed strikes as either bludegoning or piercing damage". I can think of two possible interpretations of this:
1a) A cestus modifies the unarmed strikes of its wielder. The properties of the wielders normal unarmed strikes are overwritten by the properties of the cestus, decreasing their damage die by one step but increasing their threat range to 19-20 and allowing them to do piercing damage.
1b) A person wielding a cestus may choose to do unarmed strikes instead of attacking with the cestus. In this case their unarmed strikes are unmodified with the tacit exception that they may do piercing damage if they so choose.
2. Do unarmed attacks count as light weapons, or is their a way to make them count as such? If so, a brawler (for example) could use piranha strike/finesse and pummeling style, forgoing strength altogether. I like my heavy armor brawler build with buff utility, but this could be a fun route for some people to go.
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Unarmed strikes are light weapons, and are valid weapons for piranha strike. You'll want an agile amulet of mighty fists though if you do go Dex based.
Oh right. For some reason I thought there was something like the cestus, but for slashing damage. I figured Slashing Grace would be a nice option, but from what I can tell the cestus is the only way to make unarmed strikes count as a different damage type.
Anywho, I've got my breakdown for my build. Thing is, I have more feat slots than I know what to do with. I'm getting to the point where I'm considering just taking the major pre-requisite feats (Combat Expertise, Dodge, Cleave, and maybe even Improved Unarmed Strike) just so I can use my flex feats to grab anything I want.
1. [Class feature: Fighter Bonus Feat - Weapon Focus: Monk’s Spade], Power Attack
2. [Class feature: Martial Flexibility 4/day, Call to Arms (get rid of allies flat-footed condition as move action)]
3. [Class features: Two-Weapon Fighting while flurrying] + 2 Feats?? Standout options are Iron Will, Lunge, and Cleave. Maybe Furious Focus? Does that feat really perform well?
4. [Class features: Inspire Courage (LVL+CHA modifier rounds/day)]
5. [Class features: Knockout 1/day, +1 use Martial Flexibility] Weapon Specialization (Monk’s Spade)
6. [Class features: Inspiring Prowess (Tactician 1/day)], Practiced Tactician
7. [Martial Flexibility 2, +1 use/day; Call to Arms as swift action] + FEAT?? Same options as at level 3, with the addition of Lingering Performance
8. [Inspire Courage bonuses go up to +2. Not a lot happening at level 8 other than my stat increase.]
9. [Class features: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting while flurrying, +1 use Martial Flexibility], Greater Weapon Focus (Monk’s Spade) + FEAT?? Still no idea what to take.
10. [Class features: Tactician +1 use/day, Knockout +1 use/day]
11. [Class features: Martial Flexibility 3, +1 use/day; Call to Arms as free action], Two-Weapon Rend (if possible without taking the Double Slice feat tax)
EDIT: With 12 Dex, I'm not eligible for Dodge. Combat expertise is kind of dumb, and I'm not fond of the Style feats really. I may go with Cleave so I can flex into Cleave Through and Great Cleave when there are lots of little baddies around. Still, I'd love a better idea of what to do with all these slots.
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I think Level 3 feats will likely be Iron Will and Lunge. Level 7 I'll probably take Lingering Performance, as level 8 will see my bonus get up to +2 and at level 10 I'll be able to start as a move action. Plus, I can't take it as a flex feat.
Level 9...I have no idea. I could take Dodge by buying the Deep Red Ioun Stone. This would open up my options for flex feat choices quite a bit, including the Mobility+Spring Attack trick. Plus, another AC to touch never hurt. Still, taking Dodge at level 9 is a bit...underwhelming. I could also take Improved Unarmed Strike (as I lose it with the Exemplar template) such that I can flex into style feats et. al. Though, the styles really don't thrill me. I suppose Dragon Style is quite nice for Defense Against the Dark Arts, but I'm no Harry Potter. Maybe Disruptive? Then I could flex into Spellbreaker at 10th. Always nice to make a caster fail. Options, options...