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The problem is that I've never heard anyone claim that summoned (not called) evil creatures disobey or misinterpret your orders on purpose until this thread, wherein it is the only potentially evil thing about the whole spell, conveniently supporting their side of the argument.Yes, a GM can punish NPC babies because he's pissed at me for casting [evil] spells. Or he could get over himself and admit there's nothing evil about it.Or it could be that he is just playing sadistic creatures of pure evil as, well, sadistically evil...
Let's not start suggesting that devils wouldn't exploit loopholes.
Let's not start suggesting that devils wouldn't exploit loopholes.The problem is that I've never heard anyone claim that summoned (not called) evil creatures disobey or misinterpret your orders on purpose until this thread, wherein it is the only potentially evil thing about the whole spell, conveniently supporting their side of the argument.Yes, a GM can punish NPC babies because he's pissed at me for casting [evil] spells. Or he could get over himself and admit there's nothing evil about it.Or it could be that he is just playing sadistic creatures of pure evil as, well, sadistically evil...
I'm suggesting that there is no loophole to exploit. I think it's 3.5 stuff, but I'm pretty sure a non-calling summon spell doesn't take an actual creature from somewhere. It just makes one with most of the same abilities.
{. . .}
I'm suggesting that there is no loophole to exploit. I think it's 3.5 stuff, but I'm pretty sure a non-calling summon spell doesn't take an actual creature from somewhere. It just makes one with most of the same abilities.
. . . and personality inclinations . . . .
Are people really so hung up on the idea that something that is generally a minor evil act can be used for good in specific circumstances?Brace for impact! :P
That is why I posted here instead of the other thread... I wasn't sure if the other thread was serious.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Wow some of you must play with bland flavorless summoned monsters. In every game I've played if you summon an evil creature, mechanically it does what it's told, RP wise you better believe it's taunting people, laughing at misfortune, and generally reveling in misery. And if you want it to do anything other that fight you have to give it orders, which it can follow in whatever manner suits it. Just because the summoned creature is okay when it goes home doesn't mean you didn't get a real fiend. If you try to make an intelligent evil summoned creature do good acts, it will do its best to corrupt and ruin those acts, as is its nature. Just like if you tried to use a summoned angel to do evil, it would do its best to ameliorate the suffering you're forcing it to cause.
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I'm pretty sure the summoned creature would 'do it's best' to do exactly what the caster said. Because it's a summoned creature.
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I'm pretty sure the summoned creature would 'do it's best' to do exactly what the caster said. Because it's a summoned creature.
PRD - "Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands."
Usually, but not always. Nothing in the spell description or the section about conjuration indicates that the creature is required to obey you.
I'm pretty sure the summoned creature would 'do it's best' to do exactly what the caster said. Because it's a summoned creature.
What the caster said and what the caster wants are not necessarily exactly the same. In fact, it's pretty hard to make these exactly the same without consuming an impractically large amount of time.
If your commands leave ANY room for interpretation (and as I just noted it's hard for them not to), a summoned creature is going to make use of that room as it sees fit.
Even though these forums seem to have a lesser fraction of rules lawyers than what I encountered among D&D players in college in the 1980s, you can be sure that if you summoned from these forums to try to get them to do some task that they were inclined to do differently, and you had only seconds in which to tell them what to do, you can be sure they'd find ways to make life miserable for you and/or the recipients of the actions you commanded.
The right answer is the rules. No one can apparently figure out what the rules say, or this topic would not exist.
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The rules were written by people just like us. Why not simple trusting that the GM will do the right thing for a better game experience for everyone ?
Then why do we have a rule book?
I understand that almost no one plays by RAW, it's absolute madness if you've ever tried. I understand that the game is more fun when you deviate from the rules from time to time, but there has to be rules to deviate from, if only to give us peace of mind. So that there is something to fall back on for DMs that don't want to have to make a decision. They want to look in the big, expensive book(s) of "What Do" and have a hard and fast ruling for a situation.
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I was going to ask this on the parody thread, but I guess I'm looking for a slightly more serious answer, or at least don't want to start a debate on that thread.
I also have not read all of the responses, so I apologize in advance if this has been covered.
Are people really so hung up on the idea that something that is generally a minor evil act can be used for good in specific circumstances?
Not precisely. The argument is mostly about whether, by the rules, [evil] spells are minor evil acts (by the core rules, they are not, in Golarion, they are), and whether ruling that casting, say, Protection From Good as even a slight evil act is a reasonable way to go.
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The rules were written by people just like us. Why not simple trusting that the GM will do the right thing for a better game experience for everyone ?Then why do we have a rule book?
I understand that almost no one plays by RAW, it's absolute madness if you've ever tried. I understand that the game is more fun when you deviate from the rules from time to time, but there has to be rules to deviate from, if only to give us peace of mind. So that there is something to fall back on for DMs that don't want to have to make a decision. They want to look in the big, expensive book(s) of "What Do" and have a hard and fast ruling for a situation.
Just because i can buy vegetables at a store instead of growing them in the backyard myself, it doesn't mean that i shouldn't cook them before serving. I can cook a lot, or i can just wash them and put them in a tray, but i have to make a decision how i will present them to my family.
They shouldn't complain that the vegetables aren't equal to the ones harvested by the farmer. The one making decisions about my family nourishment is me, even if i am paying someone else to produce my vegetables.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
My group calls the "Trust in the magical superpowas of the DM" argument the Willy Wonka argument. Because it usually boils down to this...
Hold your breath
Make a wish
Count to three
Come with me
And you'll be
In a world of
Pure imagination
Take a look
And you'll see
Into your imagination
We'll begin
With a spin
Traveling in
The world of my creation
What we'll see
Will defy
Explanation
If you want to view paradise
Simply look around and view it
Anything you want to, do it
Wanta change the world?
There's nothing
To it
There is no
Life I know
To compare with
Pure imagination
Living there
You'll be free
If you truly wish to be
If you want to view paradise
Simply look around and view it
Anything you want to, do it
Wanta change the world?
There's nothing
To it
There is no
Life I know
To compare with
Pure imagination
Living there
You'll be free
If you truly
Wish to be
Feel free to add a line or two about where you buy your vegetables.
My group calls the "Trust in the magical superpowas of the DM" argument the Willy Wonka argument.
more...
That is kind of funny to post in a thread about alignment where GM discretion is RAW and RAI.
PRD - "In the end, the Game Master is the one who gets to decide if something's in accordance with its indicated alignment, based on the descriptions given previously and his own opinion and interpretation—the only thing the GM needs to strive for is to be consistent as to what constitutes the difference between alignments like chaotic neutral and chaotic evil. There's no hard and fast mechanic by which you can measure alignment—unlike hit points or skill ranks or Armor Class, alignment is solely a label the GM controls."
That is kind of funny to post in a thread about alignment where GM discretion is RAW and RAI.Which makes it hard to say "Evil spells make you Evil according to the rules!" when the rule is "The GM decides if that is true or not."
True, but as GM I take a look at clerics and see this:
"Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Spell Lists. Her alignment, however, may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see chaotic, evil, good, and lawful spells. A cleric must choose and prepare her spells in advance."If a spell is opposed to the moral and ethical beliefs of Good, is a a stretch to say that it is Evil (for a spell with the [Evil] descriptor for example)?
If you want to go from good to evil by casting some evil aligned spells, i'm all for it. It doesn't work the other way for me.
No one who is truley good is going to be ok with doing a little evil to cover up their good. Whereas an evil person would definitely do some good if they knew ultimately it eould allow them to do more evil. Its truley the difference between good and evil. I see good as being as pure as possible, where the only evil is committed only by accident, or extreme situations.
would a Zombie mining crew really hurt anyone? they don't need to eat, can't be poisoned by the gasses in the mine, can't contract mine oriented diseases, feel no fatigue, and could literally mine for weeks. Zombie Labororers are literally the solution for harsh enviroments like mines or factories
Raising someones corpse so that He/She can be your slave in death is straight up Evil,no matter how you justify it.
I don't mean by game mechanics either.
Necromancy/Black magic/Grave robbing has been vilified by almost every civilization and artistic medium (for good reason).
It's so blatantly,Obviously wrong that it seems silly to even have to point it out.-Watch any horror movie...ever.
People will rationalize anything.
@ the OP, YES it SHOULD affect your alignment.
Are the the game mechanics prepared to enforce it? NO.
Consequently,it's practically meaningless.Cast away.
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would a Zombie mining crew really hurt anyone? they don't need to eat, can't be poisoned by the gasses in the mine, can't contract mine oriented diseases, feel no fatigue, and could literally mine for weeks. Zombie Labororers are literally the solution for harsh enviroments like mines or factories
Dey took er jobs!!
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would a Zombie mining crew really hurt anyone?
Assuming for the moment that mindless undead are neutral or non-aligned (just for the sake of argument), it would depend upon the society and how they view their dead... Some societies want their dead to rest in peace and would be absolutely outraged at the thought of dear old Uncle Albert’s remains toiling away in some mine. Others might not care...
A good example of a setting like this is the 2nd edition mini-setting of Jakandor, where there were two peoples; one was a culture of barbarians, and the other was a culture of wizards. The wizards used mindless undead as laborers and servants, and the barbarians thought that this practice was an abomination and absolutely atrocious... Conflict between the two cultures ensued as both viewed themselves to be "good" and the other "evil" (and in games terms, neither were evil).
But one thing to keep in mind about 2nd edition is that mindless undead were (RAW) true neutral...
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Raising someones corpse so that He/She can be your slave in death is straight up Evil,no matter how you justify it.
I don't mean by game mechanics either.
Necromancy/Black magic/Grave robbing has been vilified by almost every civilization and artistic medium (for good reason).
It's so blatantly,Obviously wrong that it seems silly to even have to point it out.-Watch any horror movie...ever.
People will rationalize anything.
That's because many cultures have superstitions about corpses affecting people's afterlives.
Not the case in Golarion, where your soul goes to the Boneyard to be judged and then is sent to one of the outer planes, regardless of your corpse's condition.
A corpse is a corpse. It is a sack of bones and meat and s@+!.
Raising someones corpse so that He/She can be your slave in death is straight up Evil,no matter how you justify it.
I don't mean by game mechanics either.
Necromancy/Black magic/Grave robbing has been vilified by almost every civilization and artistic medium (for good reason).
It's so blatantly,Obviously wrong that it seems silly to even have to point it out.-Watch any horror movie...ever.
People will rationalize anything.
That's because many cultures have superstitions about corpses affecting people's afterlives.
Not the case in Golarion, where your soul goes to the Boneyard to be judged and then is sent to one of the outer planes, regardless of your corpse's condition.
A corpse is a corpse. It is a sack of bones and meat and s~$*.
Did you mean Pathfinder? I thought several people have mentioned Animate Dead specifically ties the soul to the undead in Golarian.
Did you mean Pathfinder? I thought several people have mentioned Animate Dead specifically ties the soul to the undead in Golarion.Raising someones corpse so that He/She can be your slave in death is straight up Evil,no matter how you justify it.
I don't mean by game mechanics either.
Necromancy/Black magic/Grave robbing has been vilified by almost every civilization and artistic medium (for good reason).
It's so blatantly,Obviously wrong that it seems silly to even have to point it out.-Watch any horror movie...ever.
People will rationalize anything.
That's because many cultures have superstitions about corpses affecting people's afterlives.
Not the case in Golarion, where your soul goes to the Boneyard to be judged and then is sent to one of the outer planes, regardless of your corpse's condition.
A corpse is a corpse. It is a sack of bones and meat and s~$*.
Zero things within the lore and spell and undead rules text point to this being the case.
Jut because one person (James Jacobs) says he runs it that way does not mean it is the case.
Well, there is the thing with being unable to revive people with even True Resurrection if they've been turned undead. Something is happening when the 9th level spell that is limited mostly by creature type and dying of old age can't bring you back without first having destroyed an undead made out of you.
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A bit of a stretch, considering it can't bring back people who died of old age either.
would a Zombie mining crew really hurt anyone? they don't need to eat, can't be poisoned by the gasses in the mine, can't contract mine oriented diseases, feel no fatigue, and could literally mine for weeks. Zombie Labororers are literally the solution for harsh enviroments like mines or factories
Umm mindless undead has a default that kills anything that is living. Not because they need to kill to survive, but because its what they do. Hence neutral evil.
Oh Btw an axis doesn't have to be balanced.
Also show me someone who has never lied, never broken a law, who always does the right thing each and every time. And I will show you 100,000,000 million who does the opposite. Your very naive if you think its easy to maintain purity if continue to interject impurities.
let me put it this. Take a vial of 100 % pure water (Call it good.) and add a drop of black ink(call ot evil). That black ink mixes with the pure water. It is no longer pure. It is still mostly good, but it is still tarnished b6 the black ink. Now their is a process that can remove that ink from the pure water, but in doing so you also lose a bit of that pure water in the process. The water can never go back to exactly what it once was. Sure you can add additional pure water to it, but in the end your left with something slightly different. Now if you want to make the water impure, all you have to do is more ink. Very easy to do. It wont be long till you see just the ink.
You can start with a vial of black ink. Then add a drop of pure water. Unlike what the drop ink did to the vial of pure water, you will not see a difference in the ink. You will have to saturate the ink with an enormous amount of pure water before you can hide the black ink within. Still even if you super saturate the the mix with pure water thend result will never be pure water. The only way to remove all the ink is through a very difficult process.
That is why good and evil is not balanced on the same axis.
Its why a Paladin is supposed to be rare.
Its why there is always more evil than good.