Goblin Squad Member
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What will make playing a level 16 fighter feel different than playing a level 2 fighter?
Right now, it feels to me that there is no change in your character as you advance in level, all you get is bigger numbers.
Your hitpoint number gets bigger. If you match keywords, your damage and resistance numbers get bigger.
At level 2, if I choose two or three weapons to be proficient in, I have all the attacks for those weapons. There is no sense of "oh, I can't wait until level 8 when I finally get to use axe smash whirlwind, instead of the chop and hack that I got at level 1."
Keywords don't add anything other than number increases.. I don't match Keen and get increase crit chance, or match Burning and add a DoT to my axe smashes.
Killing a goblin with level 1 attack feats feels the same as killing an ogre with level 3 attack feats.. same thing, bigger numbers.
I understand that characters will increase in versatility with more experience, but once you've learned the battleaxe feats, you never get new or improved versions of those feats.
I am interested in hearing from people in the alpha who do feel that higher level play feels different. Are your combat tactics actually changing? Do you feel any sense of character progression?
Is this sense of advancement tied solely to expendables and not your attack feats? As a fighter, I've never found a maneuver, so maybe mages feel more advancement by finding spells?
And to the developers, what is the vision for high level characters by OE? Are there future iterations of the current systems that will provide more character progression? Or is bigger numbers the entire plan?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Part of this is becoming comfortable with the role system. In PFO, "levels" are nothing but achievements. You didn't get to Level 16 in order to get "axe smash whirlwind," you got to a certain XP and bought it, and buying "axe smash whirlwind" is part of what made you a level 16 fighter, by improving a feat, which improved a stat by a tiny amount, which opened up the feat you needed to reach level 16.
It can be a difficult switch to grasp, but once you stop thinking of levels as means to the end, and rather as the end itself, it's easier.
TLDR: In tabletop, levels are the means to the end of becoming a better character. In PFO, becoming a better character is the means to the end of achieving Levels.
edit:
It was encompassed for me a week ago, when I took a level of something that was needed to be a "fighter" and suddenly went from 0 levels of fighter to 8. My character was already an 8th level fighter in all but name, before I got the achievement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, spells kick ass. I want more of them.
One thing to remember is that we're not playing at all like we will when other systems are in place. People will not be running around killing mobs repeatedly for PvE. You will kill until you're encumbered, you use up all you power or you have competition in PvP.
I suspect it will be very similar to tabletop. At Tier 2 and 3 you will be looking for higher level mobs to hunt, ignoring many of the minor mooks. You will go out, find your target, use up your power and camp to regenerate it. I'd think the overall game experience should feel different at that stage.
The basics of orizons, cantrips and attacks IMO should feel the same at any tier save for numbers.
But even at Tier 1 killing a goblin should not feel like killing an ogre. At this stage most people are probably just spamming their highest damage attacks. When the AI can respond to conditions and different attacks the PvE game will evolve. You're also going to have to train a limited selection of attacks with matching gear. Your damage options will require long term strategic choices. At higher tier you will not be able to have equal higher numbers all around like you do at tier 1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing to remember is that we're not playing at all like we will when other systems are in place. People will not be running around killing mobs repeatedly for PvE. You will kill until you're encumbered, you use up all you power or you have competition in PvP.
I'm not certain of that, since we will still need achievements to progress. I do, however, think that a significant part of wilderness play will be time spent destroying or offloading low-end loot to keep your encumbrance under control.
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Goblin Squad Member
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'm not certain of that, since we will still need achievements to progress. I do, however, think that a significant part of wilderness play will be time spent destroying or offloading low-end loot to keep your encumbrance under control.
Well achievement progress is also strategic. Sure you could run around grinding thousands of lower level mobs to raise the basics but you're probably better off looking for elites and special escalation goals that give the same boost.
You bring up a good point, Gaskon. It is basically higher level = bigger numbers. Even Fighter Maneuvers are this way.
The flip side is that in PFTT we don't get as many different ways to attack the bad guy. In PFTT, it is, "I take a full attack action (roll dice)." Some classes have more to do than others, true, but the straight fighter is still pretty straight forward.
Also, keep in mind that PFTT is also very much "higher level = bigger numbers" too, with added versatility as a secondary benefit.
I think the thing you are picking up on is the fact that a Level 9 Archer Fighter in PFTT gains the ability to no longer provoke with a bow- a major level-dependent power boon. A 9th level Archer Fighter in PFO is simply an 8th level Archer Fighter with the ability to wear T2 armor (which is pretty big, but still just bigger numbers).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Part of this is becoming comfortable with the role system. In PFO, "levels" are nothing but achievements. You didn't get to Level 16 in order to get "axe smash whirlwind," you got to a certain XP and bought it, and buying "axe smash whirlwind" is part of what made you a level 16 fighter, by improving a feat, which improved a stat by a tiny amount, which opened up the feat you needed to reach level 16.
But my point is that.. there is no "axe smash whirlwind".
Every attack with an axe that exists in the game, I can buy with my initial 1000xp. There is no anticipation or sense of accomplishment in buying "Hack 6", when that attack is identical except for a bigger damage number to "Hack 1" that I've had since the first day I made the character.
Let me get faster with my axe so I am less interruptible. Let me get a longer range with my axe attacks.. let me add some rider effects to my attacks. Let me do 25 razing instead of 10 razing. Anything that makes me feel like "wow, Hack 6 was really worth saving up 50,000 exp for." And anything that might make my 100,000 exp worth of axe feats different than some other player's choices of where to spend 100,000 worth of exp on axe feats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the thing you are picking up on is the fact that a Level 9 Archer Fighter in PFTT gains the ability to no longer provoke with a bow- a major level-dependent power boon.
In tabletop you can usually five foot step even at first level to avoid that in the first place. Even then it's just another attack which will just be more damage or another condition that is inevitably about reducing the enemies 'something'. You can boil both games down to 'advancement is just higher numbers'.
It's really how the whole forest looks. Having higher numbers usually allows more opportunities to try different condition creating combinations. At higher tier Power and other expendables should be more important than I'm seeing them at Tier 1. That's an entirely different dimensional of options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let me get faster with my axe so I am less interruptible. Let me get a longer range with my axe attacks.. let me add some rider effects to my attacks. Let me do 25 razing instead of 10 razing. Anything that makes me feel like "wow, Hack 6 was really worth saving up 50,000 exp for." And anything that might make my 100,000 exp worth of axe feats different than some other player's choices of where to spend 100,000 worth of exp on axe feats.
Well even if it's faster or less interruptible or longer range or whatever other variable the end result is you're doing more damage right? You just want other numbers like Razed to scale too?
Variable choices are based on the weapon you choose. If you want to be less interruptible then you could choose a different weapon. If you want longer range choose an attack that's 4m instead of melee or choose a ranged attack.
The entire economy is based on which attacks we will 'support' in the game. Are we going to spend our ingots on swords or axes? Well where did you spend that extra 50,000 xp? That's what we're fighting over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am interested in hearing from people in the alpha who do feel that higher level play feels different. Are your combat tactics actually changing? Do you feel any sense of character progression?
For my part, the most significant change comes when upgrading to a Tier 2 (or Tier 3) Weapon. There's a strong sense that you've suddenly become more powerful. ([Edit] Obviously, this is just a case of "bigger numbers". I haven't had an opportunity to learn Level 9 Spells, but I anticipate I'll feel a strong sense of "advancement" when I do :) )
Slightly related:
@All - power curves
I've always thought that the way the power curve will likely work is this:
Newbies
When you are a "new" character, you'll be fragile and weak. That does two things:
1: It encourages you to stay in reasonably safe areas and focus on learning how the game works, rather than trying to be Conan on day one.
2: It makes "disposable alts" a less viable option. Making a new character is not an "I win" button for PvP if you do it with a herd of your friends.
Average
At some point, you move into the "normal" power curve of the game; what we've talked about being equivalent to the kind of power you typically see from about 6th level to about 10th level (what I call the "heroic adventuring" part of a Pathfinder tabletop RPG character's career).
This is where you find that the development of your character becomes a process of being very good at a wide range of activities. You'll be able to "catch up" to a character that's older than you in a given activity given a few months of dedicated play and training, but that older character will have the advantage of being very good at a variety of things, not just one thing.
This is essentially what happens in EVE Online.
A small group of reasonably experienced "heroic adventurers" should be able to fight off a horde of new characters, A heroic adventurer should be able to beat a small number of new characters fairly easily.
Balance comes when you have conflict between groups of heroic adventurers. In such encounters, the absolute age of the characters should be less important than their tactics, gear, coordination, and player skill.
Old Vets
There will likely be a small number of old, experienced, wealthy, well equipped PCs who will be really dangerous. You won't want to cross them.
If they show up in a fight, they can tip the balance quickly. If they act in concert as a group, it will take a lot of Heroic Adventurers to keep them in check.
Moderating the power of these Old Vets is an obvious long-term challenge for the game designers and I'm sure we'll have lots of ideas on how to keep them from getting out of hand. But I'm also sure that it will be pretty fun to play one too. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are three roles where higher level means a HUGE difference
Gatherer, Refiner, Crafter
You need to be sufficiently high level to gather, refine and craft tier 2 and it will take a long time to reach tier 3.
These are true differences that are qualitative and not just quantitative. I agree that fighters are more the same with a higher number.
I would even go one step further - the equipment worn means more as the level - provided the level is high enough to use the equipment. Oh - and writing this I suddenly realize that the main difference for high level is to be able to use the tier 2 and 3 equipment and not having it downgraded to a tier 1.
But it means a tier 2 figher without a tier 2 crafter won't benefit. Off course there are multiple ways how to 'interact' with the tier 2 crafter - be it via being in the same settlement, via trade or even via force (PvP and looting).
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Goblin Squad Member
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But it means a tier 2 figher without a tier 2 crafter won't benefit. Off course there are multiple ways how to 'interact' with the tier 2 crafter - be it via being in the same settlement, via trade or even via force (PvP and looting).
Crafters are not going to be able to get the Tier 2 and 3 uncommon recipes they need without those fighters.
Speaking of, does anyone have any greater vital gem recipes? I finally hit Gemcutter 8.
And Nihimon how did you qualify for Tier 2? I have a role level 8 wizard, what do I need to do to prep? I'm attached to a high level settlement but I can't find any of the training to advance to 9 yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Newb support vs. veteran support, a Catch - 22. There lies the contradiction in the discussion of "there will not be a steep power curve" and "there is no level cap or limit in character development".
If veteran characters don't play significantly more powerful than starting characters, GW will lose retention of veteran players. If there is not something specifically designed for veteran players to do with their high skilled characters, they will be preying upon less challenging noobs. Then the noobs will feel helpless, and GW can not retain them.
The challenge is not to limit the power curve, it is to develop alternative activities for the powerful to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would even go one step further - the equipment worn means more as the level - provided the level is high enough to use the equipment. Oh - and writing this I suddenly realize that the main difference for high level is to be able to use the tier 2 and 3 equipment and not having it downgraded to a tier 1.
But it means a tier 2 figher without a tier 2 crafter won't benefit. Off course there are multiple ways how to 'interact' with the tier 2 crafter - be it via being in the same settlement, via trade or even via force (PvP and looting).
Agreed. I don't think the higher tier gear is 'just numbers', either. Anecdotally, the use of Tier 2 weapons against Tier 1 armor causes a lot more criticals (as expected by the higher d200 roll). This will have at least two effects:
- The Reactive feats based on criticals may become much more useful when facing forces that are (generally) lower level than your character.
- Criticals will eventually result in injury points. Injury points will degrade characters over the long-term, requiring extended rest or use up a lot of clerical power. That could mean that characters aren't infinitely playable. Even with large amounts of replacement gear, characters can get worn down by too many criticals. And higher levels (with good gear) will put out more criticals than people with lesser gear.
[And Takasi is correct as well, the Tier 2 crafter needs Adventurer types to get those Tier 2 recipes. They both need the high level PvPer to keep competitors away. It's an interdependent system.]
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Old vets should be leaders of large groups. Think fleet commanders in EVE, or capital ship pilots (our equivalent to capital ships will likely be seige-related entities which we have not yet even really begun to design). They will likely be necessary to operate the kinds of transport beyond simple mounts that large caravans will want. They will provide benefits to Settlments, POIs and Outposts when they assume various critical positions innthe settlement heirarchies, etc.
We will certainly continie to add contnent and systems for those characters over time. It will be a rich domain of Crowdforging and iteration.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Part of this is becoming comfortable with the role system. In PFO, "levels" are nothing but achievements. You didn't get to Level 16 in order to get "axe smash whirlwind," you got to a certain XP and bought it, and buying "axe smash whirlwind" is part of what made you a level 16 fighter, by improving a feat, which improved a stat by a tiny amount, which opened up the feat you needed to reach level 16.But my point is that.. there is no "axe smash whirlwind".
At this point we have a limited section that gives something for everyone PFO will not come to market at EE as a finished product, but as an initial, playable, system. More races, roles, feats, skills and spells will be added over time. It's likely that there _will_ be an equivalent feat a year or two from now. The devs are focused on creating a bug-free, playable, Day-one system that will be expanded later. Judging high-level play by how things stand now is probably sub-optimal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If veteran characters don't play significantly more powerful than starting characters.
I think that higher levels = bigger numbers makes this problem worse.
(don't nitpick my numbers, I am approximating here)
Right now, assuming the proper equipment to match keywords, Hack 1 does 40 base damage. When I get Hack 6, now I'm doing 80 base damage, with no difference in secondary effects, attack speed, etc..
What I would prefer to see is Hack 1 doing 40 base damage, with no extra features, while Hack 6 still does 40 base damage, but now it has a 50% chance of unbalancing, its .25 sec faster, and it applies burning 25.
Then take it one step further, and have Hack 6 done with a battleaxe that has the burning, unbalancing and swift keywords do as described above, but Fighter #2 has trained different axe feats, and is using a keen, destructive, blinding battleaxe, so his Hack 6 does 40 base damage, has a +15% crit chance, and applies Razed 25 and Oblivious 20.
Is this anywhere in the plan? Are we currently using an MVP keyword system that will be iterated upon before OE?
Or is more keywords = more damage the full capacity of the system?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's likely that there _will_ be an equivalent feat a year or two from now.
Some confirmation that this is an eventual plan would be nice.
Right now, all attack feats are available at level 1, and none of them improve in anything other than base damage.
If there were eventually going to be attack feats not available until later levels, or that improved in effects rather than damage, I would hope for some indication of that or at least one example of a feat that functions that way in the MVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And Nihimon how did you qualify for Tier 2?
My experience with Tier 2 Weapons is from previous Alpha Builds, when XP was accelerated and Tier 2 Training was available.
I could use a Tier 2 Weapon right now, but don't have one. I am not able to buy the Clothing Armor Proficiency 2 required to use Tier 2 Armors in the current build.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is this anywhere in the plan? Are we currently using an MVP keyword system that will be iterated upon before OE?
Or is more keywords = more damage the full capacity of the system?
Stephen has hinted that the devs have ideas about more interesting things to do with Keywords, but not what those ideas are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I would prefer to see is Hack 1 doing 40 base damage, with no extra features, while Hack 6 still does 40 base damage, but now it has a 50% chance of unbalancing, its .25 sec faster, and it applies burning 25.
I think reactives on criticals are the best route to add changes.
You could add training that does what you're asking, but it kind of waters down the specialization of other roles. I don't understand why you would want to be able to modify Hack to make the attack just like a dagger or fire bolt.
I'd like the game to be grounded a bit more. Fighters should do physical damage from just training and physical weapons. If you want energy attacks then I'd like to see added special charge materials, oils, potions or grenades. A system where you need to work with someone who has intelligence, personality or wisdom training to make that happen. Magic should not come from strength and brute force, but that's just my personal preference.
If you want to be 'faster' then utilities and conditions should be the route, not actual attack modifications.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Old vets should be leaders of large groups. Think fleet commanders in EVE, or capital ship pilots (our equivalent to capital ships will likely be seige-related entities which we have not yet even really begun to design). They will likely be necessary to operate the kinds of transport beyond simple mounts that large caravans will want. They will provide benefits to Settlments, POIs and Outposts when they assume various critical positions innthe settlement heirarchies, etc.
We will certainly continie to add contnent and systems for those characters over time. It will be a rich domain of Crowdforging and iteration.
Does the term "old vet" only apply to martial roles, or will high-level gatherers and crafters also impart those same benefits on groups and settlements?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right now, all attack feats are available at level 1, and none of them improve in anything other than base damage.
This is not entirely true.
The current design calls for Effects like Interrupt to "step down" to a lesser Effect if the Hit Success Factor is less than (something?). Using a Tier 3 Weapon instead of a Tier 1 Weapon will significantly improve the odds of an Interrupt actually occurring.
I think the actual effect you desire - namely, gaining something "new" - will only really happen with Expendables. If you look at the Fighter Maneuvers Pause (Level 3), Stop (Level 6), and Halt (Level 9), then you can see a progression that actually adds an entirely new effect (Unbalanced) at the highest level.
Given that normal Attacks are meant to be like Cantrips - something that you have access to at the very beginning, and that can be spammed during combat - it makes sense that they don't progress the same way that Expendables do.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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At the MVP stage, it was really helpful to create a progression where things improved in degree but didn't really change in function. This allowed us to create a full 1-20 range of stuff with the same tech, rather than leaving holes of "cool thing goes here, hopefully implemented before players get to that level." It also lets us extrapolate that things which are fun/not fun at lower level will be similarly engaging at higher levels, and balance to that with some degree of confidence rather than trying to plan for a dramatic shift in playstyles at higher level.
But once we've gotten the core experience ironed out to where it's generally agreed to be working well, we should have better perspective to introduce additional mechanics, including ones that let you change up your playstyle at higher level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't understand why you would want to be able to modify Hack to make the attack just like a dagger or fire bolt.
What I want is for a level 16 fighter to have tactical options and choices that aren't available to a level 1 fighter.
I don't really care if those look like magic effects, or trip/sunder, or spring attack. I just don't want to press the same three buttons to kill a Stone giant at level 16 as I pressed to kill a goblin at level 1.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Old vets should be leaders of large groups. Think fleet commanders in EVE, or capital ship pilots (our equivalent to capital ships will likely be seige-related entities which we have not yet even really begun to design). They will likely be necessary to operate the kinds of transport beyond simple mounts that large caravans will want. They will provide benefits to Settlments, POIs and Outposts when they assume various critical positions innthe settlement heirarchies, etc.
We will certainly continie to add contnent and systems for those characters over time. It will be a rich domain of Crowdforging and iteration.
Thanks Stephen and Ryan for the comments, that is exactly the sort of information I was looking for.
If I am reading Ryan's description correctly, it sounds like a level 16 character might not care what Hack 6 does, because he'll have better things to do with his time than hit stuff with an axe. That sounds fun :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I want is for a level 16 fighter to have tactical options and choices that aren't available to a level 1 fighter.
I don't really care if those look like magic effects, or trip/sunder, or spring attack. I just don't want to press the same three buttons to kill a Stone giant at level 16 as I pressed to kill a goblin at level 1.
I think it depends on the AI. I don't think you should spam 3 buttons either.
For a tough foe even at Tier 2 you should be using 12 attacks (primary and secondary) 8 powers (primary and secondary), 2 consumables and 2 utilties. That's 24 different options to time and consider.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Old vets should be leaders of large groups. Think fleet commanders in EVE, or capital ship pilots (our equivalent to capital ships will likely be seige-related entities which we have not yet even really begun to design). They will likely be necessary to operate the kinds of transport beyond simple mounts that large caravans will want. They will provide benefits to Settlments, POIs and Outposts when they assume various critical positions innthe settlement heirarchies, etc.
We will certainly continie to add contnent and systems for those characters over time. It will be a rich domain of Crowdforging and iteration.
Would a safe summary be "by the time there are old vets, there will be roles and niches for them to fill"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It can be a difficult switch to grasp, but once you stop thinking of levels as means to the end, and rather as the end itself, it's easier.
I don't see Gaskon's issue as not understanding the system. His issue is "What's the difference between a starter character and an advanced character if it only means bigger numbers?" Bigger numbers are fine, but if they do not translate info a different type of fun, or a more immersive or exhilarating gaming experience, they become meaningless.
So, if players are going to invest 2-2 1/2 years in character advancement, what is the end state, and why should characters strive to get there? What are the rewards (not money) for achieving the maximum state for a role?
If bigger numbers are the only answer, no one will persist.
Would a safe summary be "by the time there are old vets, there will be roles and niches for them to fill"?
This summary is scary. It says "Go to college and spend a ton on a nebulous degree of your choosing. When you graduate there should be something worthwhile you can do with it."
It would be very helpful to have a sort of map to be able to plan the degree program. So far, as Gaskon stated throughout in various ways, the design foments a "bigger is better" mentality, but at the MVP stage, bigger is only bigger. What will the "Better" part be. It would be sad to invest years in characters but not know what their later game experience might present.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Old vets should be leaders of large groups. Think fleet commanders in EVE, or capital ship pilots (our equivalent to capital ships will likely be seige-related entities which we have not yet even really begun to design). They will likely be necessary to operate the kinds of transport beyond simple mounts that large caravans will want. They will provide benefits to Settlments, POIs and Outposts when they assume various critical positions innthe settlement heirarchies, etc.
We will certainly continie to add contnent and systems for those characters over time. It will be a rich domain of Crowdforging and iteration.
What if that is not my vision for my character in this sandbox?
What if I want to be the deadliest Assassin, with no aspirations for company leadership, or settlement management. No use for siege engines or formation combat.
I want to be a deadly Assassin. After 2.5 years I want to be substantially better than an Assassin that is only 6 months old. What takes him 5 hits to kill, I should only take two.
If your vision for high level characters is that they have to settle for becoming something that is not the vision of the player, that is not a sandbox or satisfactory end-game content IMO
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your vision for high level characters is that they have to settle for becoming something that is not the vision of the player, that is not a sandbox or satisfactory end-game content IMO
'My uber character should be able to shoot lightning bolts out of his bung-hole. That's my vision.'
Survey says... Nope. The player's vision must fit within the boundaries of the sandbox. The sandbox does not need to expand to fit every player's fancies.
Edit to add: Since player's fancies are going to be contradictory, given enough players, the sandbox cannot expand far enough to encompass all of the players' visions of uberness.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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What if I want to be the deadliest Assassin, with no aspirations for company leadership, or settlement management. No use for siege engines or formation combat.I want to be a deadly Assassin. After 2.5 years I want to be substantially better than an Assassin that is only 6 months old. What takes him 5 hits to kill, I should only take two.
That is not the game we are building. The "best Assassin" may be a couple of percentage points better than the next cohort of Assassins, not multiples better.
Still, that small degree may be quite meaningful.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Just like in EVE, the best frigate driver is only a margin better than a good frigate driver. And you can't spend an infinite amount of training on frigates, although you can spend a lot of it.
If your character concept is "Significantly better than Player Characters at what he does", it's probably not MMO compatible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TBH I am confused by this entire conversation. If I understand correctly, more experienced characters will be more powerful (bigger numbers). They may have expanded powers as well at some point(feats do additional/new things). Or at least the opportunity for synergy between feats that less experienced characters won't be able to achieve. And then we have Ryan explaining expanded play options that are envisioned for high level characters that provide completely different play experiences then newer players can have.
So correct me if I'm wrong but haven't everyone's concerns voiced here actually been addressed?
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Goblin Squad Member
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TBH I am confused by this entire conversation. If I understand correctly, more experienced characters will be more powerful (bigger numbers). They may have expanded powers as well at some point(feats do additional/new things). Or at least the opportunity for synergy between feats that less experienced characters won't be able to achieve. And then we have Ryan explaining expanded play options that are envisioned for high level characters that provide completely different play experiences then newer players can have.
So correct me if I'm wrong but haven't everyone's concerns voiced here actually been addressed?
It's best describe by comparison to EVE.
In EVE a 10 year old player can often do seemingly very impressive stuff like fly the $10,000-real-money-equivalent Titans in "big space battles".
But those big space battles only happen a few times a year at most as the alliances are relatively stable and rarely squabble in a major way.
When it come to what you REALLY do in EVE 7 days a week all year round (setup gatecamp ambushes with frigates and hictor/dictors, explore wormholes, mine, move stuff, build stuff, fight in faction war in a frigate, roam losec looking for PvP, harass renters in an interceptor etc etc) a 6 month/one year old character is 90% as effective as the 10 year old one in at least the one or two of those things they have skilled up, frigates for example.
What a newish character cannot do is:
1) fly the endgame (but relatively useless day to day) stuff like Titans and Supers
2) do everything 90% as well as the 10 year character, as a one year old character will still need to be specialized, branching out comes later
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I envision with with long time in the game is perhaps not becoming the standard settlement manager but in a similar way becoming a manager of a feature of the world.
I don't think a sandbox style game (or any game) can provide interesting and satsifying challanges by pure leveling system and narrow role focus.
There has to be a wider scope similar, but not limited to settlement management. There was a reason D&D 1st ed and those had a level where you built a castle (or whatever) and begun to fiddle with other stuff than pure adventuring.
I see roles as Dungeon Lords, and with more advanced polytheism management of religious quests (like a strategy overlay, heroquests ala Glorantha with the "Hill of Gold" as a prominent example).
For these highest features there perhaps will be a lot of waiting for the call to the bridge, but hopefully there will be other, a bit more trivial stuff to do.
What I mean is that a lvl 20 character is not only a character with high numbers, but also a "force of natue" and should/could affect the world in a more permanent way than just be able to clear escalations single handedly.
In the good old days of MUD (... And we lived in a hole in the street, and every morning yadayadda) there was more a rule than not that when you leveled enough you become a "demigod" and provided code and content to the game. These days it is a bit more complicated than so, but I can imagine systems in similar vein.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simply having bigger numbers sometimes can already have an extra fun effect in PvE mmo's.
I always liked it when I reach that point where I can easily lay waste to large numbers of PvE mobs so that I can farm them for ingredients, instead of having to carefully pull a camp one by one, and have a very low rate of loot.
Another was getting access to better AoE spells, again with farming in mind.
I agree this is only fun for people that are into that sort of thing, but to me, reaching those levels was always fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was answering in general. :) I certainly agree that leveling up should entail a lot more then just more damage on the battlefield.
Milestones for me in Everquest, as a Druid:
Getting your first spell to make your own food and water(this was a big thing in the old days). No more running out of food (delayed HP regen)
Getting your first Speed-run spell (SOW). This was a game changer; not only did you travel much faster but you could now escape those insta-kill red mobs that Everquest was littered with.
Getting your first teleportation spells: obviously a game changer. Also a nice tool for socializing since other players would rely on you.
First AE spell.
Getting Snare: totally changed combat and the level of mobs you could now take on.
And so forth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I absolutely wouldn't mind if some more spells and abilities were unavailable at the start. Like if Fireball required intelligence 12 or a certain "[feat] 3" to learn for example.
1 - the start would be less overwhelming for new players if the number of trainable abilities was reduced
2 - it would feel more like PnP where you get more powerful spells and abilities at higher levels, not just greater effect from the spells you already had at lvl. 1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I absolutely wouldn't mind if some more spells and abilities were unavailable at the start. Like if Fireball required intelligence 12 or a certain "[feat] 3" to learn for example.
1 - the start would be less overwhelming for new players if the number of trainable abilities was reduced
2 - it would feel more like PnP where you get more powerful spells and abilities at higher levels, not just greater effect from the spells you already had at lvl. 1.
It should be a combination of both. I like the fact that spells and abilities don't become obsolete as your character grows. That is great design. At the same time, everything should not be available at the start. It makes things far too overwhelming for a new player when they are. The things that unlock at higher levels don't necessarily have to be more powerful (and in most cases shouldn't be, so they don't make other things obsolete), but they should add utility and variety to your characters choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I second this absolutely. I still feel a bit tired when I open the combat trainer and all the attacks and stuff just flood me. I guess it can be a bit because the XP flood in the beginning so I have a little of everything. But some attacks/whatever could be staggered a bit more against Achievements.
And perhaps some should be squirreled away to only unlock at some special creature/quest/whatever achievement a bit like the crafter requirement of crafting stuff.