1. In order to halt movement you have to be moving. You can't halt movement that you are not using. Halting movement implies that movement is taking place.
Halt does not mean "never moved"
Are you trying to say that someone can stop something they never started doing?
2. By the fly skill rules if a dragon stops moving and then uses a breath attack it has moved less than half its speed or it has not.
If it has not moved half of its fly speed then it would use that check, not the hover check.
If it moved the required speed to not make that(half movement) check then no hover check is needed so by the skill section hovering is not taking place.
So I ask again give me a scenario where the dragon gets to use hover as part of a movement per the fly section.*
edit: *Just to be clear give me a scenario which would require a use of the hover ability per the fly skill section.
edit 2: You don't even need an action to take a 5 ft step while flying, so I see no reason to require an action to stay in one place.
Yes, you can 5-foot step while flying, so tell me why I can do this as a non-action, but I can't hover as a non action?
Cyrus, you are reading the feat incorrectly. The feat does indeed state "can halt its movement". However, this is really more fluff than anything because if you are moving last turn and you hover this turn you are halting your movement. Last turn you moved, this turn you are not moving, thus you have halted moving.
They gave a flavorful description which you are misreading as being the important element. You are the only one doing this.
If you are moving then you do not need to hover. How do you explain that basic contradiction?
Please stop ignoring the contradiction.
This is not the first feat that Devs have written in a way that could be misread but it is by far one of the least confusing feats that can be misread. (Heck, take a look at Ride-by attack sometime..by RAW it is impossible.)
2) Hover could be part of any action that grants a fly movement, I assume.
This is nonsensical, because hovering is NOT moving.
The actions it can be part of, is ANY action.
Can you hover while using a move action to retrieve something from your backpack? Yes.
Can you hover while make an attack action? Yes.
Can you hover while casting a spell? Yes.
Can you hover while using a move action to move? Technically allowed from a rules parsing perspective, but an impossible situation as you can't be both moving and hovering by definition.
The stealth skill has similar wording.
Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.
Stealth specifically calls out that stealth is usually done as part of movement. Flying has no such language (though obviously if you are flying from one square to another you are moving). But there are situations in which you could stealth without moving.
You are sitting in a room. A blind man enters and starts listening. You should be allowed a stealth skill to be as quiet as possible to avoid being heard (even though you haven't moved in this scenario, you are still sitting in your chair). Now even if you are chained up and incapable of moving you could still make that stealth check to quiet your breathing, to not shift your position and rattle the chains, etc.Hover is like this. You are making a fly check without any kind of need to move, or even ability to take movement.
If the dragon moves 10 feet and stops then it has to make the DC 10(did not move half of its movement check), not the hover(DC 15, I did not move at all check).
What part of this is confusing to you?
If that dragon NEVER moved then he never used movement. Per the game rules movement is when you change location.
Are you saying you can use movement and stay in the same place?
Once again are you saying that you can stop something you never started doing?<---You have not answered this yes, and to be honest if you think "halt movement" means I could have moved but chose not too then I don't have much else to say since that makes no sense at all.
Cyrus, you keep ignoring peoples questions and points to make your own. Perhaps you should address the questions people are asking you. If you answer those questions you may see the flaw in your logic.
LazarX, please check the context of my posts before refuting them. I did not say you could not move limbs (ie: wings). I said you could not move. Ie: from point A to point B.
This is the basic premise behind which Cyrus is operating. He states that unless you can move a distance you cannot hover.
I think I have a way to end this but I wont be home for a few hours. Hint it involves flying creatures such as air elelmentals that full attack but dont have the hover feat.
Damn, good point Wraithstrike.
Cyrus, how exactly do you think Paizo expects a Large Air Elemental to make a full attack? It has no regular move speed. It is always flying.
1) You have stated that you cannot make a full attack while hovering because it requires a move action.
2) Large Air Elementals have no movement mode other than flying.
3) Large Air Elementals have two attacks and do not have "Pounce".
So, please explain this contradiction.
There are also other creatures such as the Erinyes that are expected to full attack while airborne.
I am still not home. I just wanted to make a point that there are a few creatures that work primarily based on flight and full attacks.
Adventure Paths do tend to gives tactics and I am sure I can find a creature full attacking while flying once I get home.
Before we move on are saying flying creatures can hover and full attack or are you still saying a move action is required?
The air elemental has no rules be exceptions so can it full attack while hovering. A simple "yes" or "no" along with an explanation will suffice.
Also which question did you ask that I did not answer?
P.S. : The air elemental is not the only one.
Actually, I was looking earlier for a winged creature with something like "Hover and make a full attack" in it's tactics, but I wasn't about to search every creature. If there is one (especially if it is in the first Bestiary), you must be right. I will still think it's crazy, but games can't always mesh with everyone's intuitions.
I guess you missed this part of one of my previous posts.
If your deeper concern is the plausibility of a creature with wings hovering (since few real world winged creatures - humming birds and dragon flies and maybe few others) can hover, consider that the ability to fly is rather abstracted to also include the fly spell, ghosts, and other supernatural effects. Do you think a ghost should be unable to hover if it is grappled?
Cyrus, perhaps it is your lack of a bullet style of posting that hides any answer you might have provided. However, I have seen you refute the evidence without actually answering questions.
Actually, I was looking earlier for a winged creature with something like "Hover and make a full attack" in it's tactics, but I wasn't about to search every creature. If there is one (especially if it is in the first Bestiary), you must be right. I will still think it's crazy, but games can't always mesh with everyone's intuitions.
I guess you missed this part of one of my previous posts.
If your deeper concern is the plausibility of a creature with wings hovering (since few real world winged creatures - humming birds and dragon flies and maybe few others) can hover, consider that the ability to fly is rather abstracted to also include the fly spell, ghosts, and other supernatural effects. Do you think a ghost should be unable to hover if it is grappled?
Right now his rules based answer(opinion) is that hover requires a move action to go along with it if you want to try the DC 15 fly check. Once that is out of the way that is one more hole in his defense.
Wraithstrike; yes, once that is out of the way, yes, I'm pretty much finished. From what I have heard, as well as personal experience, AP's are not always proofread (or play-tested) very well, which is why I was hoping for something from the first Bestiary, since that is basically "core." It might be worth noting that I technically only think you need an action that grants fly movement (which you then forgo), not necessarily a move action. So, if you can somehow get movement as a swift action, I suppose you could hover and full attack that way as well.
You are correct that AP's are not always right, but monster manuals tend to tell you the powers, but they dont generally tell you how to run a monster.
With that aside how is a monster such as an air elemental that only has a fly speed supposed to make a full attack if it takes a move action to use hover with the fly skill?
I keep asking because you have not answered it or I missed it.
I say "such as" because there is more than one monster like this(fly speed and has multiple attacks, but it does not have a land speed), and none of them have any rules exceptions.
If you are going to insist that hover requires a move action to use per the fly skill then you need to explain how these monster are supposed to get their full attacks.
Sorry - I did ignore a question, there. Wraithstrike; I don't think an Air Elemental should ever "Fall." That just doesn't make sense to me, as it isn't any more dense than air. Technically, by RAW, perhaps you can drop balloons on people for damage, but doesn't make sense either. So I guess my answer is that an Air Elemental can full attack while... Floating?
I am aware that this isn't rules-wise reason.
It's also true that technically the Air Elemental could "land" in order to full attack, but given everything we know about Air Elementals that seems unlikely. That said, all Air Elementals have Flyby Attack, so maybe they don't usually make full attacks for this very reason.
That is not telling me how they are supposed to make them.
Incorporeal creatures can't land because they can't touch the ground. They are insubstantial and they all fly. They also don't get a free pass from having to make fly checks.
edit: Air elementals being made of air also should not be able to be hit. An air elemental does not get a free pass from fly checks.
Also the damage you do from dropping an object on someone depends on the density and size of the object. A ballon is not big or dense enough to do any damage unless it is filled with something other than water, or it is a very big balloon.
Also, an interesting note...
This seems a little strange, actually. I think they would be able to grapple each other, or maybe that one could grapple them with Ghost Touch gauntlets and/or armor.Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled.
I already knew that. :)
One reason they can't be tripped, aside from being insubstantial, is because they are always flying, and flying creatures can not be tripped.
Not incorporal, and not made of air
Speed fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Remember, I did say I had a few examples of "fly only" monsters.
If I were to list a monster that is not made of air(nor is reasonably lighter than air), not made of lightening(lightening elemental), that only has a fly speed, and no special abilities to bypass hover, and multiple attacks, what would you say?
Winged flight is not called out in the book as being anymore special than non-winged flight so that is another rule that would need to be found.
Perfect maneuverability only means you get a bonus to your fly check. That is important to distinguish from "automatically bypassing hover" because penalties to the fly check or dex skill can still make them fail a hover check. It does not mean they are literally "perfect" flyers, but only that they are very very good.
With all of that aside I have more monsters. :)
Aeon, Bythos
A shimmering, colorless mass congeals to form a four-armed humanoid shape with an eye-like pattern in its torso.Speed fly 40 ft. (good)
Melee 4 slams +23 (1d6+6 plus 1d6 cold and aging strike)
Archon, Harbinger
What appears to be a miniaturized orrery zips through the air, with thin, sharp blades flashing periodically from within.Speed fly 50 ft. (perfect)
Melee 3 blades +4 (1d4-1)
I really wish I worked for Paizo just so I could pop through threads and tell people they're wrong. Officially.
Cyrus, it still seems like a lot of your preconceptions are getting in the way of what the rules are. While I recognize you have made a big step in acknowledging that you were wrong you may want to take a look at the rules as they are written before applying conceptions and only then make your house rules.
In short, creature density, wings or not, etc have no bearing on whether or not a creature can hover unless there is a statement that it does.
While it may not make much sense that an Air Elemental needs to roll a fly check to hover by the rules it must. Feel free to house rule it.
The same applies for winged creatures making a fly check to hover without expending some kind of special action that you feel they should expend.
It also seems that some of your ideas might be borrowed from an earlier edition (3.5 specifically). Back in 3.5 creatures with Perfect or Good maneuverability could hover. Average, Poor, and Clumsy could not.
Pathfinder expanded the ability to hover by making it a skill check. They simplified the fly rules greatly although more work needs to be done to clarify some points.
Cyrus incorporeal creatures can't fall so they are exempt from needing needing to hover by the rules. I thought I had put that in one of my other post as a point to show that Paizo normally calls out who gets exempt.
Anyway here it is:
Incorporeal creatures cannot fall..
So while that book does not say "never has to make a hover check", it is no consequence if they fail since they can't fall anyway.
And honestly I thought it made no sense for an incorporeal creature to fall, even when I used it as an example, but what people thinks should make sense often goes against the rules so I wanted to have time to find it before I posted it.
I do agree that a stunned creature could not hover because things that take away actions(all of them) normally prevent you from being able to do anything at all to include non-actions such as hovering or nocking a bow. I say "normally" because I have not looked at every case of an action be prevented.
Now of course this might be hard to prove, but I think most GM's run it that way.