So I am a long-time forum lurker, though I haven't posted on here pretty much ever before now, though I decided to give it a whirl and see what happens.
Also, the obligatory SPOILERS for Snows of Summer statement! I also apologize in advance for what is probably a lengthy post, a concise storyteller I am not.
I started running Reign of Winter a few months back, and overall I am loving the adventure path. So far it has been...interesting. My players are roughly about 10 or so sessions in I'd say (we play every other week) and have just entered the portal to Irrisen. Thus far things have been progressing fairly smoothly with few real issues. However, I seem to have come across a bit of an odd stumbling block with my last session, that of the introduction of the character Nadya.
For context, the group consists of:
1.) A Varisian Shaman with the life spirit who is a "cleric" (term used liberally) of Pharasma, who's whole gimmick is to go around healing people who embrace Pharasma so that they may die in her name later. He has amusingly on several occasions denying healing to the party or other npcs who did not either convert or at least blatantly lie to his face.
2.) A human hunter with a dire rat who is under the belief that she (whether or not it is actually true) was at one point a witch's familiar/ferret. She is trying to seek out witches to gain back her "true form".
3.) A human fighter viking, a proud Ulfen shield maiden with a strong hatred of witches and the country of Irrisen and started south working as a mercenary/bodyguard for hire. She got sold on the idea after reading the pathfinder novel Winter Witch (see below).
4.) A kitsune (yes, you read that correctly) winter witch (going the presteige class eventually) who is planning on taking the tail feats, and who's backstory is that he is a minor member of the Jidwagan court (a bastard son of some as of yet unnamed White Witch that as basically otricised and hidden away as a servant to avoid political scandel), who's long term goal is to bring about change/overthrow the Irriseni court.
Anyway, the players came across the black rider before entering the portal and he gave them all of his information regarding the portal, Baba Yaga being captured by Queen Elvanna, etc., before giving the players the option take the mantle of the black. Two of my four players opted to take his deal (the Witch and the Shaman), with a third considering embracing it later; the hunter, who's only reason for not taking it was a slight misunderstanding on her part in character that her rat could not take the deal as well (I later explained to her that I plan on having the template effect her companion through her if she takes it). The Ulfen quite staunchly refused, wanting nothing to do with the deal at all (going so far as to almost killing the rider upon first meeting him before he even spoke if not for the rest of the party persuading her not to, settling instead for merely being the one to "draw his blood" when he killed himself to empower the keys).
After this, the players went through the portal as of last session, half of whom freezing cold from failed fort saves, pretty much out spells and beaten senseless from an angry Moss Troll, only to stumble across the hungry mantis attacking Nadya's merchant caravan.
The players opted to help fight off the mantis, if for no more reason than to help feed the hungry giant weasel they had befriended beforehand through a combination of Charm Animal and Wild Empathy on the part of the hunter and shaman.
The issue I'm currently facing is what happened after. Nadya and her guards proceeded to thank the players for their assistance for staving off the mantis and protecting their shipment, before they setup camp for the evening and introduced themselves properly. Perhaps it was fairly to adequately roleplay her effectively, or miscommunications/misconceptions on the part of the players, or a little of both, but most of the players, for some reason or another, decided that her genuine questioning and attempts to drop in suggestions for surviving in the cold weather (mostly directed at the Varisian, as the rest of the party were of more northern, if not all Irriseni appearance) was reason enough to either distrust or dismiss her guidance for various reasons.
The Varisian and the Witch (understandably with the latter) both arrogantly in character dismissed her guidance claiming that "they knew better" about how to survive, and out of character, most of the party decided then was the optimal point to suddenly (and frustratingly) stop listening, despite them being a newer group and many of them suffering many a failed fort save from cold before this already.
Worse yet, the Ulfen went so far as to accuse her and her men of being a coward and even a spy for the witches because of her question about the group and initial lack of "F- the police"-esque attitude towards the tyrannical dictators she literally just said current had her child held hostage (as Nadya currently knew it). These statements weren't necessarily off the mark, persay, as I am deliberately emphasizing the Tyrannical corruption in the kingdom to play into the Witch and Ulfen player's back-stories by bringing out a little more of the brow-beaten pushed to desperation, stuck in an Iron/Frozen grasp, parts of Nadya and the people of Waldsby, making her initially a tad more reserved (especially considering the party has a *blatant* Winter Witch were Irriseni robes among their midst).
My original intent was to have Nadya warm up to the party after traveling with them a few days (I actually made the trip to Waldsby take a week instead of a day for a bit more bonding time for her and the party (and to help drive home her helpful tips for surviving in the wilderness), and show forth some of that rebellious spirit and determination she is describe as having in the book, mostly after she is able to determine that the Witch player *isn't* some agent of the witches sent to keep tabs on her or the nearby people (i.e. her scripted reaction to Mierul).
A symptom of the problem seems to stem from the party having developed the aforementioned attitude towards the Irriseni authority from their backstories, particularly the Ulfen and Witch, (the second of which is at least admittedly just trying to play a slightly clueless/naive character). A rebellious attitude is certainly heroic and all well and good for the players, and is not something I wish to outright discourage (indeed, I have already been dropping steady hints both in and out of character that such blatant open statements/actions will have consequences if the wrong people hear/see them :3 ).
The problem is that the players seem to have a disconnect or misunderstanding with that of the PC's behaving in a somewhat less...suicidal manner. Most of them seem to honestly be unable to grasp that not every NPC, even the "rebellious" ones are going to jump at the first opportunity to do something dangerous or risk death/imprisonment just to say "**** it!" to the Irriseni court. I'm not sure if this is because they are newer to the game, are being influenced by other faster paced media (i.e. video games, movies, anime, etc.), some other factions, or some combination. I suspect that is a whole other conversation/debate in and of itself, but that is definitely tangential to the immediate problem.
The Ulfen player in particular, actually seems to have been making a lot of assumptions in the game based off of the book Winter Witch, which while I did read and certainly enjoy, I sometimes feel as if I read a *completely* different book than she did. 0_o I actually had to sit down and clarify after the last session to her that Ulfen was an ethnicity and not a nationality (she's a Linnorm Kingdoms Ulfen), and that not even the majority of the population of Irrisen are Jidwaga, so perhaps this may have been cause for some of the initial animosity towards Nadya on her character's part. I'm hoping this was the case at least.
Perhaps the most frustrating part of all of this was that I was forced to play the Nadya's child/doll sidestory card REALLY d*mn early just to keep them from completely distrusting/ignoring her, and afterword it just felt rushed, forced, and quite undercut (at least to me as the DM that wanted to gradually unveil it).
Anyway, to summarize this no doubt long rant, as it currently stands, I've got a party that is (short of the witch player) wanting to strike off on their own asap without any aid from Nadya, without any supplies, any form of really traveling through the wilderness, or with any more bearing than "find the Pale Tower", despite having spent several sessions already struggling with the cold before going through the portal. I've considered just letting them suffer the consequences of going off half-cocked and then having Nadya and them show up to keep them from starving/freezing to death, but I don't really want it to come accross as vindictive. Then again, perhaps part of my problem is the players need a little dose of wake-up from the world/DM. Anyway, our next session is in two weeks, and I am open to suggestions with how to proceed from here.
TLDR: My party hates/distrusts Nadya. Short of letting them freeze to death, what do?
Having an out of character chat with your players could be helpful. If you suspect that they are being influenced by faster paced games, let them know that the game they are playing is different, and that their characters represent living, breathing people in the adventure world. Mention to them that their characters would likely consider their inexperience with the cold and should consider looking for help, at least until they adapt to such conditions.
Just be sure not to come off as too confrontational. If they don't heed your advice then, let them learn by experience.
Hey, they chose to alienate a potential ally AFTER suffering some of the consequences of being in over their head. I say it's time they suffer the consequences.
I do not think letting them suffer the consequences of their actions vindictive. So let them go away on their own and see what they make of it. You can always have Nadya turn up later and help them. Moreover players will not appreciate it if you force an NPC upon them, so if they do not want to take her along, that might also be OK.
If they are sympathetic to rebellious characters, it is also possible to link Nadya to the Heralds and introduce them a lot earlier in the campaign.
Is there any possibility to link Nadya to the background story of one of the PCs? That is what I did, and it works every time.
Luna eladrin wrote: I do not think letting them suffer the consequences of their actions vindictive. So let them go away on their own and see what they make of it. You can always have Nadya turn up later and help them. At present this is my current plan. I've sat down and discussed the issue with the players, so it is still not quite 100% certain they are going to be opting for the "heck with it, we'll find our own way" option, though letting them damn near freeze to death for going off without provisions seems more and more appropriate. It is not quite my fault if they don't take the crash course survival tuorial seriously, now is it? ;) I'm just not wanting to be *too* harsh on a newer group to tabletop games.
A lot of springs from an interesting, if sometimes frustrating mix of players I have at my table, where as one of them is brand new, one is quite a veteran and fellow DM, and the other two are experienced roleplayers, but aren't often as experienced on the mechanics side as they think they are (they were sort of thrown in the perverbial deep end in another campaign with a bunch of munchkining veterans who carried them and gave them pleny of "advise"). At this point I'm trying my best to give them a first taste of a serious campaign (not to knock slapstick munchkin miniature powergaming, it has a time and place. :) ) without either scaring them off or having them develop some bad player habits. ;)
Most of it has been going quite smoothly, this one just genuinely threw me for a loop, as I'm less concerned with them freezing to death than I am of what will happen come Waldsby without a friendly NPC to shelter them from a distrustful town. Knowing how squirrelly my group can be, I expect them to try and take on the whole village from the bartenders making a snide comment about outsiders.
Quote: Moreover players will not appreciate it if you force an NPC upon them, so if they do not want to take her along, that might also be OK. I could not, as a player in quite a number of bad games, agree more.
As for the heralds suggestion, I actually have not looked into them much, they are in the second book correct? Some of the parts of the other books I have admittantly glossed over as of yet, as it'll realistically be several more months before they finish book 2 (this group can be painfully slow at combat encounters), so I shall look into that. Not opposed to it, or perhaps factoring her into a backstory, I shall discuss things with them.
I already know I will be making some major changes down the line, as my players seem very interested in Irrisen related stuff and I frankly do not like that the last book takes place entirely inside the hut (current plan is to likely take it back to other locations in Irrisen and the other locations to look for the items, rather than in the hut). I love the default adventure paths as overarching stories, but as with past games I've run, I tend to find that I end up paraphrasing the adventure more than running it verbatum, as it tends to work better with groups who tend to meander in every direction *but* the direction of the plot.
Truth be told, it's been refreshing to DM for a group of newbies, if it just means I have to slow things down and reign things in a little at times. My group in particular interesting in particular for being the only group I have ever had who spends nearly every combat trying to peacefully talk their way out of it, even with animals and vermin (I had a fighter player try to diplomacy check spiders to persuade them to give the player silk and not eat them), only to be not really be sure what so much to do after combat is over, or not want to talk at all to the same NPCs they just spend 6+ sessions trying to find and just talked out of fighting. Player logic is every amusing. :)
Luna eladrin wrote: I do not think letting them suffer the consequences of their actions vindictive. So let them go away on their own and see what they make of it. You can always have Nadya turn up later and help them. At present this is my current plan. I've sat down and discussed the issue with the players, so it is still not quite 100% certain they are going to be opting for the "heck with it, we'll find our own way" option, though letting them damn near freeze to death for going off without provisions seems more and more appropriate. It is not quite my fault if they don't take the crash course survival tuorial seriously, now is it? ;) I'm just not wanting to be *too* harsh on a newer group to tabletop games.
A lot of this springs from an interesting, if sometimes frustrating mix of players I have at my table, where as one of them is brand new, one is quite a veteran and fellow DM, and the other two are experienced roleplayers, but aren't often as experienced on the mechanics side as they think they are (they were sort of thrown in the perverbial deep end in another campaign with a bunch of munchkining veterans who carried them and gave them pleny of "advise"). At this point I'm trying my best to give them a first taste of a serious campaign (not to knock slapstick munchkin miniature powergaming, it has a time and place. :) ) without either scaring them off or having them develop some bad player habits. ;)
Most of it has been going quite smoothly, this one just genuinely threw me for a loop, as I'm less concerned with them freezing to death than I am of what will happen come Waldsby without a friendly NPC to shelter them from a distrustful town. Knowing how squirrelly my group can be, I expect them to try and take on the whole village from the bartenders making a snide comment about outsiders.
Quote: Moreover players will not appreciate it if you force an NPC upon them, so if they do not want to take her along, that might also be OK. I could not, as a player in quite a number of bad games, agree more.
As for the heralds suggestion, I actually have not looked into them much, they are in the second book correct? Some of the parts of the other books I have admittantly glossed over as of yet, as it'll realistically be several more months before they finish book 2 (this group can be painfully slow at combat encounters), so I shall look into that. Not opposed to it, or perhaps factoring her into a backstory, I shall discuss things with them.
I already know I will be making some major changes down the line, as my players seem very interested in Irrisen related stuff and I frankly do not like that the last book takes place entirely inside the hut (current plan is to likely take it back to other locations in Irrisen and the other locations to look for the items, rather than in the hut). I love the default adventure paths as overarching stories, but as with past games I've run, I tend to find that I end up paraphrasing the adventure more than running it verbatum, as it tends to work better with groups who tend to meander in every direction *but* the direction of the plot.
Truth be told, it's been refreshing to DM for a group of newbies, if it just means I have to slow things down and reign things in a little at times. My group in particular interesting in particular for being the only group I have ever had who spends nearly every combat trying to peacefully talk their way out of it, even with animals and vermin (I had a fighter player try to diplomacy check spiders to persuade them to give the player silk and not eat them), only to be not really be sure what so much to do after combat is over, or not want to talk at all to the same NPCs they just spend 6+ sessions trying to find and just talked out of fighting. Player logic is ever amusing. :)
If you want to change the final chapter: do you have "the witchwar legacy"? You could use that one as well.
Since one of my players wanted to play a rebel/revolutionary, I adapted her background story in order to make her character one of the Heralds. My group will be starting on The shackled hut this weekend. They are mostly very experienced players and heavily into roleplaying. My problem is a luxury problem, namely that they always take too many NPCs along. They attacked the Pale Tower with Nadya and her 4 warriors, Emil Goltiaeva (long story; they more or less set up Emil and Katrina against each other), Iziamir the blacksmith, Hatch and several Pale Tower guards, one of which was charmed. The others were more or less converted to the revolution (after consuming lots of alcoholic beverages and having to listen to a long political speech, made by the rebel character, accompanied by a successful diplomacy check).
One other possibility to consider...
I'm not sure this is necessarily the way I'd prefer to run it (my party, thankfully, took to Nadya fairly readily), but it's a possible way to keep the story going without forcing the PCs onto a path they may not be inclined to take.
I'm running a very experienced crew through Snows of Summer right now (just finished the big fight at the hunting lodge) and reading about your group has me shaking my head. If they really want to assault the Pale Tower on their own, in the depleted condition you just described, I say let 'em. Then, when you have the inevitable TPK, they will either A) roll up some more humble/realistic/survivable characters and try to actually save Golarion or B) quit the campaign and complain about the "unfair" GM that ruined all their fun. If you don't make them start paying the price for crappy decision-making, this group will make running the AP an exercise in frustration for you and suck out whatever fun you thought you were going to have.
Also, it sounds like you have some bigger issues than players trying to advance too quickly before they level up. Not to make any snap judgements, but your players sound kind of like a bunch of douchebags. Accusing Nadya of being a coward for not attacking the white witches when the party has an actual, no-kidding white witch in the group? Granted, I don't have the full context, but that sounds a little a$@@+&#-ish. If that Ulfen fighter hates witches so much, what the hell is it doing hanging out with the kitsune? Even with regards to basic diplomacy, the group sounds inept. I mean, c'mon, they made friends with a friggin' giant weasel that wanted to eat them but they can't be civil to a good-aligned NPC whose daughter was kidnapped and killed by a cruel witch? Really?
My advice: Have Nadya tell them to piss off, then let 'em freeze to death or kill them when they proceed direct to the Tower. Might as get all the drama and whining out of the way now instead of three books into the AP.
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