Does the Cleric need better class abilities


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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You can be a down to earth, chilled out Gorumite too. Religion is not personality unless you want it to be.

Shadow Lodge

Pendagast wrote:
xavier c wrote:

I am not saying the cleric is weak i am saying the is cleric boring

channel is BORING!!!!! domains are BORING!!!!!

IF you don't like channeling you can take a step back in time, give it up and take the original "turn/rebuke" ability?

Channel was supra interesting in comparison when it came out.

I don't know, I've really never been a fan. The fact that it doesn't act like positive/negative energy (both healing and harming at the same time) and also the fact that it offers a Save just killed it. An archtype that allowed Clerics to swap it out for Turn/Control Undead I though would have been cool, but again, the fact that it offers a Save against the enemies strongest Saving Throw and is no longer either a Cha check or Level dependent for other effects just makes it almost entirely undesirable except in niche builds, while Channel Energy still has all of the same baggage that Turn/Rebuke Undead did. That is to say it used to be "well some faiths just don't care about Undead", and now it's "well some faiths just don't care about healing/negative energy bombs"

The other real issue is that Channel Energy, even maxed out, really just does not scale. It's strong at levels 1-2, okay at 3-5, but after that just not worth it except in rare cases, or the much more common out-f-combat healing, but honestly other forms of cheap/free healing can do just as well, and being that something PF has really, really pushed is opening up healing to so many other classes. So while there is some anecdotal pushes like "A Highly Regarded Expert's" above, there's at least as many that disagree with it as the norm at least.

Even back in the days of PF Alpha and Beta, there was a massive sort of anti-Cleric push, and it shows, (very debatable just how good that was for the game), but the game has changed significantly since the Core book came out, and the class has just not kept up in any meaningful way.

It is a stronger class, especially in the realm of theorycraft and limited focus evaluations (such as the DPS stat-ups and straight numbers comparisons people often point too), but actual playing with unknowns and varieties isn't the same thing, and it's certainly not the strongest by far, (outside of play styles and house rules). But lacking in interesting things, outside of what any other class could do, absolutely. Anyone can be religious, so that's not really important as a distinction for character of the class. Basically everything is chosen at Class Level 1, with a few minor exceptions (that everyone, or just about everyone else gets, too).

It's playable, yes. It's strongish, yes. But it's also incredibly boring, both not being best at the things it's designed to really focus at (be that Divine Caster, Healbot, Necromancer/Debuffer/Curser, or Divine Warrior).It doesn't get a single thing that multiple other classes can't get, (and generally struggles to keep up with them if both focus on it). I think everyone's too fearful of adding anything too cool or interesting for fear of the (very much overly exaggerated commonality of) Codzilla despite the Druid (very much still exists) and the early "magus" (Fullplate + 4 attacks + all martial weapons + 9th level casting) being just fine.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Waterhammer wrote:
I imagine that Cayden Cailean's clerics would be pretty relaxed.

Why do I suddenly see the opposite? Someone forcing people to chug booze like a fratboy initiating a pledge.

"Suck it down, wimp, we ain't got time for you to cough like that, and there's still six more shots to go!"

I know this is against his "don't drink to excess" asterisk he throws in, but come on, the guy got so wasted he attempted the riskiest dungeon on the entire planet by himself as a bet. It's a bit hypocritical of him to tell others to drink responsibly.

As one of my past characters put it, "I'm comfortable with my hypocrisy. I'm chaotic what do you expect?"


DM Beckett wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

IF you don't like channeling you can take a step back in time, give it up and take the original "turn/rebuke" ability?

Channel was supra interesting in comparison when it came out.

I don't know, I've really never been a fan.

Channel energy isn't too exciting in itself (fun though it occasionally is to take down a huge surrounding mob of low grade undead in one action), but it supports you using your spells for something other than healing, which made clerics a more fun class to play.


Well I did create this in another thread in the hope of generating some chat but alas nothing!! So here are my thoughts on the cleric/archetype options situation!

Hello Paizo...

I know you are the ones writing out the errata for the ACG but I thought you might be interested in some honest but constructive feedback regarding the Ecclesitheurge and some possible tweaking in the errata. I am not a designer or a writer but I do have 20+ years worth of RPG experience which I would like to think counts for something! I freely admit I thought the Ecclesitheurge was extremely poorly designed and is one of the worst cleric archetypes available which considering how bad the existing archetypes are, is saying something!
As it stands this is what the gains and losses are vs the standard cleric:

GAINS
• The ability to swap out his second domain for another
• Bonded item enabling one spell to be stored and cast past per day
• The ability to prepare his primary domain spells in regular spell slots

LOSSES
• Reduction in weapon proficiencies
• Complete removal of armour/shield capability and inability to gain proficiency in their use
• Reduction of channeling by 1D6

Even viewing the above on a superficial level, it is clear that the cons definitely outweigh the pros. Viewed on a deeper level the problems are magnified. My rationale for this is as follows:

• The ability to swap out a second domain is OK but nothing to get excited about since the domains in general are not that great. Some are good but many of them offer very little in terms of impact or flavour - lacking sufficient domain powers to make them of much worth.

• The bonded item is OK again but I feel should have given the option to acquire a familiar. This could have been done and worded as a form of spiritual ally - potentially opening up some great ideas for adding flavour to the class.

• The ability to prepare the primary domain in non-domain slots lacks impact. To be honest from the get go, the cleric should have the ability to prepare at least one of his domains in regular slots. Having 2 domains but only having the ability to cast one of them once per day is very underpowered and yet again robs the class of impact and flavour.

• I am full agreement with the reduction in weapon proficiency and in actual fact think you only did half the job. If you’re going to create a more caster focussed cleric, then does it properly - give them the option of only using their deities’ favoured weapon and say a staff. This like the armour could state explicitly that any deviation from this results in the removal of all powers. This is more thematically correct IMO and would enable you to give more in return in terms of powers/skills and thus flavour.

• The removal of armour/shield is correct but as stated previously is not compensated for adequately. By going down this path you rightly take away a significant chunk of not only the cleric’s potential melee capability, but also inadvertently its hugely significant role of being able to assist the party (close air support style) in combat via buffs/anti-buffs/heals/harms. If the intent is to distance the cleric more that’s fine but you don’t give anything in way of compensating for the fact that the cleric is now significantly more vulnerable. If the idea is for the cleric to carry on as before providing CAS (close air support) then you need to help facilitate this because as it stands this is a very poor choice indeed.

• The reduction is channelling power on the surface seems minor, but it opens up one of the biggest problems with the class IMO...... channelling is fairly poor overall. As a healing tool it is moderately useful at lower levels but even then demands feat investment to make it work effectively - this being a significant problem for a very feat stared class. In addition since it keys off Charisma this only accentuates one of the Cleric’s biggest problems - its MAD nature. Realistically you have to have a Charisma of 16 to make it worthwhile which even in a 25 point game is a major issue let alone in a 10 or 15 point game. As the you level up is becomes significantly less worthwhile - being able to heal on average 35 points of damage at 20th level is to be honest a bit of joke. The joke is made even worse when you analyse the fact that the cleric is just about one of the only classes with no capstone ability.... truly a massive slap in the face. Negative channelling is more effective but again only with significant feat investment and realistically choosing half-elf as your race. This yet again significantly limits its impact and flavour to the class as a whole.
So when you see the channelling reduced to a maximum of 9D6 it really is like kicking a man when he’s down.

I hope you can see something patently needs sorting out. Here are some suggestions for the Ecclesitheurge. Some of these ideas are related as well to the ceric class as a whole and may serve to provide ideas for future developments. I am not suggesting necessarily that all should be implemented but I feel they are all certainly viable options:

1) As suggested above, reduce further the weapon capability so as to be more thematically correct but to also give the option of being more appropriate in compensation.

2) Grant a permanent 3rd domain. If you feel this would be too much to offer from the start (a point that I would disagree with giving the current power/flavour level of domains in general) - you could have the 3rd domain only kick in at a later level say 6th or 7th. Another related option would be the ability to prepare both domain spells in non-domain slots or alternatively give the class 2 domain slots instead of one.

3) You have to make your mind up what to do either in making sure that the armour starved Ecclesitheurge isn’t obliterated in attempting to assist party members or suitably compensated/changed for becoming more distance caster focussed, akin to wizard/sorcerers.

4) Sort out channelling. IMO this is overall a very underwhelming ability especially at higher levels... multiple wands of CLW + higher level heal spells in general is more often than not enough to solve most problems. Leaving this aside, the reduction of 1D6 is petty and pointless. A possible idea would be to have the Ecclesitheurge choose from a range of divine options at first level; one of these could be the ability to channel but with selective channelling thrown in for free. This would at least reduce the feat burden on the feat starved cleric. Giving a player the choice of opting in or out of channelling would open all kinds of possibilities for the class. Alternatives to channelling such as extra feats, spell options from other lists or special abilities would serve to provide proper balance but also add some much needed flavour.
As it stands, the cleric is obliged to take an underpowered and MAD inducing option which only serves to hamper and weaken the class.

5) 4+ skill points per level. Not only is the cleric feat starved but it’s also skill starved! This is something that has been apparent for years and needs sorting. For a class that is supposed to be the backbone of the party this is an area that has a gaping hole.

6) D6 hit points. At the moment the Ecclesitheurge is a D8 class but very vulnerable.... thus making the possession of D8 HP largely redundant. Give it D6 HP and some compensation to do the job properly. This should be combined with wizard BAB (possibly even worse a la the ‘Archivist’ from 3.5) which would be entirely thematically appropriate. A huge number of people have been clamouring for a D6 divine class for years.... it really is a gaping hole and as I keep on saying a great opportunity to add flavour.

7) I have been recently writing up a D6 divine class called ‘The Apostle’ which has as one of its special abilities - ‘The Stigmata’..... for the blood sacrifice of HP the ability to power up spells. Something along these lines could be thought over...

To summarise, I completely understand issues regarding space in publications. But let’s be honest, a great many people have spoken at length on the forums over the validity and OP nature of several of the classes released in the ACG (the Arcanist being a prime example) and so to say as an excuse there wasn’t enough space for the Ecclesitheurge is a complete joke and indicative of how badly divine classes have been treated under Pathfinder. D&D 3.5 gave a much better and balanced representation of the divine classes and subsequently more people enjoyed playing clerics.

Pathfinder has done (and continues to do) very little in this regard and so we are left with classes like the Ecclesitheurge which are very underpowered, and completely lacking in balance and flavour. As one of the 4 original classes, the cleric deserves more respect than it currently gets. It is a class that offers a vast amount of RP possibilities that is at the moment severely hampered. The Ecclesitheurge is quite possibly the poster child for highlighting this issue....... extremely poorly designed.

Finally, 3PP have answered the calls of customers effectively and provided effective archetypes. Some do take up more space than others, but certainly in the case of the priest and theosophist, some excellent variation is achieved in not a lot of space.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/kobold-press /theosophist
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/pri est
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/flaming-crab-games/priest

As shown above.....The proof is in the pudding Paizo.... do what should have been done..... sort out the Ecclesitheurge (and by default, the Cleric) PROPERLY.....

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