Does the Cleric need better class abilities


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The Cleric spell list is not even that good and i see it as very limited

My problem is that Clerics of different gods are pretty much all the same.
Why is a Cleric of Norgorber the same as a Cleric of Iomedae. I think it would be better if the god the Cleric worships added spells to the Cleric spell list that are appropriate for the gods theme and Divine Portfolio.

I also like the idea of domain capstones for the Cleric.

Just because a class has Full Casting does not mean it should not have interesting class abilities. I mean have you looked at the Full Casters in the Occult Adventures Playtest all Clerics have is domain and channel and those are not even unique to the Cleric as other class get those to.


Losobal wrote:
Full Casting AND full/interesting feat/class ability trees? I dunno if that's going to go well.

Shamans seem to like it just fine.

Edit @ xavier c

The Cleric Spell list is very very good, being second only to the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Lots of varied options from minionmancy via Animate Dead/Object, Summon Monster, Planar Binding, Divinations that tell the future including the wonderful commune, some battlefield control, the best restoration effects, the best raise effects, the best healing effects, all this on top of amazing self and party buffs. Clerics list is great.

Grand Lodge

Growth subdomain, when used with tactical acumen, is fantastic for martial clerics & Inquisitors. The combat bonuses are minor (+6 damage is the best case), but the extra reach & zone control, improved positioning, and free virtual 5' step are priceless. This domain power enables all sorts of devastatingly effective combat tricks.

Silver Crusade

Umm, I've GMd for both clerics of Norberger and Clerics of Iomedae, and they seemed completely different. The Iomedae clerics tended to be martial beatsticks with minimal social skills. The Norbergan clerics tended to be stealthy, tricky types with excellent social skills. They picked their spells from the same list, but tended to prepare totally different spell lists. About all they had in common were d8 HP and at least 1 channel per day. Not similar at all ...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
xavier c wrote:

The Cleric spell list is not even that good and i see it as very limited

My problem is that Clerics of different gods are pretty much all the same.

I haven't noticed this. On either case.

Sure, you need to get out of the low levels to really start affecting things spellwise. But once you do, the things you can do within the limits are powerful. Subtle, but powerful.

As for clerics all playing the same, I think that is more the problem of presentation than mechanics. Because I've seen plenty of very different clerics over the years.


Anzyr wrote:
Losobal wrote:
Full Casting AND full/interesting feat/class ability trees? I dunno if that's going to go well.

Shamans seem to like it just fine.

Edit @ xavier c

The Cleric Spell list is very very good, being second only to the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Lots of varied options from minionmancy via Animate Dead/Object, Summon Monster, Planar Binding, Divinations that tell the future including the wonderful commune, some battlefield control, the best restoration effects, the best raise effects, the best healing effects, all this on top of amazing self and party buffs. Clerics list is great.

Clerics don't get Planar Binding

Shadow Lodge

Planar Ally isn't much different.


TOZ wrote:
Planar Ally isn't much different.

Ya, and it's exactly what I meant to say. Damn natural 1s.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
xavier c wrote:

The Cleric spell list is not even that good and i see it as very limited

My problem is that Clerics of different gods are pretty much all the same.

I haven't noticed this. On either case.

Sure, you need to get out of the low levels to really start affecting things spellwise. But once you do, the things you can do within the limits are powerful. Subtle, but powerful.

As for clerics all playing the same, I think that is more the problem of presentation than mechanics. Because I've seen plenty of very different clerics over the years.

I think part of it is that to really get the sort of variety a lot of people would like to see out of clerics, you'd need to make them into multiple classes. Which, arguably, has happened with Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Oracle, and Warpriest.

Silver Crusade

Or you just build them in radically different ways, and they're all clerics. Why break into more classes, when one class already handles a half dozen approaches?


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Magda Luckbender wrote:
Or you just build them in radically different ways, and they're all clerics. Why break into more classes, when one class already handles a half dozen approaches?

Because some people just want to make their own stuff.

9/10 homebrew "solutions" I've seen on these boards, for example, just end up making things more complicated and don't actually solve any of the problems they intended to work on.


Zhayne wrote:
boring7 wrote:
How about an option that has a d6 hit die and gets skill points? Or straight-up can't wear heavier armors in trade for something? I'd love to see a light-armor-only cleric with bonuses to charisma skills and some other special like the ability to cast domain spells as regular spells or do stuff the Shaman does.

Something like this guy?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/pri est

^Fixed the link.

This is a pretty good kernel for building a caster-centric Cleric equivalent(*) -- just make it so that the extra Domain depends upon the religion instead of being hard-wired to Knowledge. Having 6 + IntMod Skill Ranks per Level and d8-based Channeling might actually be a bit overpowered, even for a d6 1/2 BAB Class that is full 9/9 casting with boosted Spells per Day per Level, but it wouldn't be horribly overpowered. Maybe the solution would be to reduce Skill Ranks per Level to 4 + IntMod, but add the Cloistered Cleric's additional abilities (obviously not the Diminished Spellcasting), but spread them out a bit in the character progression -- if you take the Cloistered Cleric's additional abilities without the Diminished Spellcasting they are actually decent if not outstanding (and wouldn't hurt to sprinkle in a few more at higher levels), and they fit better with a d6 1/2 BAB Class than with a d8 3/4 BAB Class.

(*)This would be left behind after converting the d8 3/4 BAB Cleric to use an Inquisitor-style chassis including 6/9 or 7/9 spellcasting.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Or you just build them in radically different ways, and they're all clerics. Why break into more classes, when one class already handles a half dozen approaches?

I would argue that the Druid, Inquisitor, and Oracle are all different enough to merit being their own classes, and between them all you can get a very nice variety of divine casting concepts. Inquisitor nicely fields the Cleric with more skills, and Oracle gives you a divine caster with a much stronger thematic focus. Druid is a bit narrower in its scope, but it's a legacy class.

I guess it would be nice if you could roll all those ideas into one class, but it would make for one long entry in the rulebook.


The fundamental problems of the cleric are mis-valuation and polytheism for polytheism's sake.

First, the misvaluation: Clerics are not full casters. Take away the return-to-status-quo-ante spells like restoration and remove blindness/deafness and the spells that let them not quite catch up to fighters in martial prowess and the situation tax spells like water breathing and the NPC spells like sending and there's just not a lot there. They summon, but the summoner is proof that just having summoning at wizard rates doesn't make a class a full caster. The healer tax isn't added value on the cleric. It's subtracted value because the cleric is forced to expend the resources he could be using to be an effective class on compensating for poor game design.

Full divine casting really is worth about 1/4 BAB less than arcane casting like WotC claimed when they designed 3e. The PF wizard got school powers and the PF cleric got domain powers. Fair enough, but the PF wizard got arcane discoveries and the PF cleric got nothing. Channel Energy is, absent expensive stat and feat investment, worth a few first level wand charges.

Second, the polytheism. In real polytheism there are typically a few gods that matter per pantheon. Most polytheistic deities have no church militant and no reason to interact with adventurers. This means that a realistic pantheon needs far fewer full domains than were printed. The elemental domains could have been a single template domain. Artifice is for NPCs and therefore doesn't need to be fully written up. The alignment domains could have been a single template domain. Charm is filler. Community and Protection lack distinct identities. Darkness and Trickery lack distinct identities. Glory, Nobility, and Sun lack distinct identities. Healing is the boring thing we're trying to get away from and shouldn't have a domain at all. Magic and Rune lack distinct identities. Strength and War lack distinct identities.

Paizo spokespeople have said that the cleric design was constrained by pagination issues and that each domain might have had more numerous and better spaced and weaker abilities if there didn't have to be so many. That's the problem. There never needed to be so many. Someone wrote the early D&D pantheons with too many gods and made up too many vacuously defined domains to distinguish them instead of cutting to the chase and admitting that Mars and Nike and Athena are pretty much interchangeable as far as adventurers are concerned (to say nothing of their equivalents in other pantheons) and don't need a huge mess of domains for the sake of having a huge mess of domains.

There's only so much detail a publisher can construct and fit in a book and the cleric's entire budget was spent on polytheism for polytheism's sake.

A real cleric fix has two parts: take the healer tax out of the class and make it something everyone can do (possibly off the heal skill), and replace the domain powers with a pseudo-feat setup like rage powers if not actual class restricted feats like arcane discoveries.


Atarlost wrote:

The fundamental problems of the cleric are mis-valuation and polytheism for polytheism's sake.

First, the misvaluation: Clerics are not full casters. Take away the return-to-status-quo-ante spells like restoration and remove blindness/deafness and the spells that let them not quite catch up to fighters in martial prowess and the situation tax spells like water breathing and the NPC spells like sending and there's just not a lot there. They summon, but the summoner is proof that just having summoning at wizard rates doesn't make a class a full caster. The healer tax isn't added value on the cleric. It's subtracted value because the cleric is forced to expend the resources he could be using to be an effective class on compensating for poor game design.

Full divine casting really is worth about 1/4 BAB less than arcane casting like WotC claimed when they designed 3e. The PF wizard got school powers and the PF cleric got domain powers. Fair enough, but the PF wizard got arcane discoveries and the PF cleric got nothing. Channel Energy is, absent expensive stat and feat investment, worth a few first level wand charges.

Second, the polytheism. In real polytheism there are typically a few gods that matter per pantheon. Most polytheistic deities have no church militant and no reason to interact with adventurers. This means that a realistic pantheon needs far fewer full domains than were printed. The elemental domains could have been a single template domain. Artifice is for NPCs and therefore doesn't need to be fully written up. The alignment domains could have been a single template domain. Charm is filler. Community and Protection lack distinct identities. Darkness and Trickery lack distinct identities. Glory, Nobility, and Sun lack distinct identities. Healing is the boring thing we're trying to get away from and shouldn't have a domain at all. Magic and Rune lack distinct identities. Strength and War lack distinct identities.

Paizo spokespeople have said that the cleric...

The cleric rewrite I toyed with looked more like an oracle in simply having gods with their own lists of unique abilities and spells they added to the list. The idea was to capture the actual story and lore behind the gods, or at least how they want their clerics to act like.


^^that is what i am talking about. that is what i want right there^^


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I can't remember the last time I played a heal-bag cleric, they're so much more than that. They're a full caster that wears armor! I mean, that right there would sell me, but I get an AOE heal/attack AND 2 domains for even more spells and powers? Wow, that's crazy. I feel like since AD&D clerics have secretly been the most capable class, at least from a versatility standpoint. You can take them in any thematic direction and you're almost always bound to be rewarded. Growth and Travel domains with a level of Barbarian? Hello there large 2nd lv PC with a move speed of 50...


One thing that I thought about is that mechanically, you could build two clerics with the same domains, different deities, and be hard pressed to tell them apart. So maybe a new difference would be variant domain powers. Like the subdomains, but based on something more than "my god likes this". Pharasma, for example, has an altered version of the Ancestor's subdomain. What if one cleric with the Fire domain can cause his weapons to ignite with flaming property, at higher levels to flaming burst, but another one can create a fire shield? One cleric with the War domain can inspire others, similar to a bard, but another instead causes bleeding wounds with every strike?

Being honest, yes, clerics have a 9 level spell progression...that was 7 levels, once upon a time. They spread their power out quite a bit. Everyone is like, "but they can wear armor and cast spells!" So? Wizards and sorcerers don't even bother with armor, their magic takes care of problems. "They have 3/4 BAB!" If you never roll an attack roll, who cares what your BAB is? A casty cleric might never bother to roll an attack; my 3.5 cloistered cleric rolled about once per level for a spell to hit, unless she used her wand of searing light. "They have d8 hit dice!" Wow, average of 21 hp more than an equivalent wizard. That's maybe one claw attack from a 20th level party's typical foe; at first level, it's 2 hp.

As for a capstone: power level varies wildly on these. But having one would be nice, even if 99.9999999999% of all games don't reach these points. Even if it's something simple, like "you continually emit a consecrate effect".

But yes, much of the interesting stuff about clerics is role-play based and the rest is "am I using a lot of channel energy?". Even something so simple as a bonus feat progression, say, every 5 levels like a wizard, might help. Though preferably something more diverse than that; many classes get bonus feats after all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
xavier c wrote:
^^that is what i am talking about. that is what i want right there^^

Has Spheres of Power been mentioned to you?


I agree with the talk of cleric blandness, but with the huge mass of subdomains now I feel like you could make some interesting combinations and trade out the worthless domain abilities to get something cool and functional... barring my old nemesis "sorry you must worship god X to do this cool thing." Really, take away the rigid restrictions for who can take what domain/subdomain and go with a "pick what makes sense for your dude" guideline for choices and you are going a long way towards making the cleric more interesting without making any major overhauls.


I don't play PFS or have a group dedicTed to metaplot, so I generally just...pick domains that make sense for my character. I'm still not familiar with the Golarion pantheon, too many difficult names for a setting I'll rarely ever play in.


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What i would have preferred, for cleric, if i could re-write the class.

1) get rid, of domain power. (would you really want to go up to a priest who could shoot fire or acid from his fingertip, or bring you bad luck with a touch :(

2) Limit them to picking one domain of spell's.

3) Let them treat domain spells, as part of there spell list. So they can memorized domain spell like regular spells.

4) In addition to spontaneously casting cure spell, allow them to spontaneously convert there normal spells to there one domain spells.

..................................................................

Provide the option, to drop the channeling ability, for an extra +2 skill points per level.

or

Provide the option, to drop the channeling ability, for Heavy Armor Proficiency at 1st level, One Martial Weapon feat at 3rd level, and one Bonus Combat feat at 6th level.

or

Provide the option, to drop the channeling ability, for bonus Scribe scroll feat at 1st level, Brew Potion at 3rd level, and Craft magic arms and armor feat at 6th level.


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Oliver McShade wrote:

What i would have preferred, for cleric, if i could re-write the class.

1) get rid, of domain power. (would you really want to go up to a priest who could shoot fire or acid from his fingertip, or bring you bad luck with a touch :(

2) Limit them to picking one domain of spell's.

3) Let them treat domain spells, as part of there spell list. So they can memorized domain spell like regular spells.

4) In addition to spontaneously casting cure spell, allow them to spontaneously convert there normal spells to there one domain spells.

..................................................................

Provide the option, to drop the channeling ability, for an extra +2 skill points per level.

or

Provide the option, to drop the channeling ability, for Heavy Armor Proficiency at 1st level, One Martial Weapon feat at 3rd level, and one Bonus Combat feat at 6th level.

or

Provide the option, to drop the channeling ability, for bonus Scribe scroll feat at 1st level, Brew Potion at 3rd level, and Craft magic arms and armor feat at 6th level.

This all sounds exceedingly worse if you're trying to make things more fun.


GypsyMischief wrote:
I don't play PFS or have a group dedicTed to metaplot, so I generally just...pick domains that make sense for my character. I'm still not familiar with the Golarion pantheon, too many difficult names for a setting I'll rarely ever play in.

That's pretty much what I do too, but those are houserules and in a discussion like this you gotta look at the class in question as is.


Clerics are amazing.
Boring? Dont over optimaize and break the pattern, you will still be decent but not narrow and "likr others".
Take the followig 2 exampels for amazing ideas, both play tested.
The only " house role" is chosing any 2, domains, no archetype.
Domains : travel (trade), glory(heroism).
Trait : wisdom in a flesh (stealth).
Leta see lvl 9-11, cut:

Domains give +9/13 to all cha skills!!! You git diplomacy of 23, and perform better than a bard.
Feats: Skill focus, familiar, improve familiar, scribe scroll, sacred summon, power attack or summon good monsters.
Later levels take eldrich heritage shadow and hide in plain sight.
With 4-5 skills per lvl, and huge cha based boost you are a bard skill monster , for great rp.
You summon, buff and use chain of perdition for maneuvers.
You teleport yihr self and others, heroism the group and hse channelu g as off combat healing.

Lower lvls, write scrolls of protection from evil and shield of faith and always buff and summon.
Later , your skill reach huge pluses, and spells get better.
My familiar, azata, is delieverig touch buffs (free reach spell), reading scrolls, useing a wand, and allowig my round 1, to be :
Move / teleport the fighter to flank.
Standard / summon azata
Swift / heroism all
Familiar / move&cast a buff from a scroll
Summon / full action.
And this is round 1....
Boring?
Wow, no.
Best / supreme build ? Ofc not.
I need mkre feats for quicken, augument summon and much more...

Oh, forgot, plane shift = we can rest when needed. Later on, i will creste us a demi plane to hide in....


Also, bettrt fun, thats what spells, spell resesrch and such are therr.
Dont take the ""best spells"" take the fun ones...
Guidance at low level for aid another with skill fir extra 3 .
My cleric rp himslef as a helper, he assist the bard and let it enjoy the credit for info gsthering .
With touch of glory, aid and guidance at lvl 9,i add to his diplomacy (normally +17) another 12!
Take 10, he almost reach 40... Allowing ton of information and crowd controll. We once convinced a mob to leave us alone and go and attack the baron who send them...

Command someone to approch the 2 handed barbarrian.
Trip and blind with chain of perdition.
Burning disarm the mighty orc.

Fun is versitile, is not doing 100 damage a round...


And lastly, there is always imp eldritch arcane to add a single wizard spell to the list, for more fun...


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666bender, did you notice that everyone else in the thread is posting in sentences, and that your posts are in bursts of microbytes? It kind of reminds me of my grandmother, who would sometimes sit there and interject Spanish into everyone else's English conversation, just because she knew half of them wouldn't pay attention.

I'm not saying it's wrong, just that your points would reach more people by following their lead.


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I can't support this idea that the Cleric/Oracle spell list is as amazing as people are saying.
I just recently rolled with a Cleric and had constant issues picking spells to prepare:

•Most buff spells are overridden by magic item bonuses.
•Most buff spells come at such a slow progression that you're getting a VERY minor use out of them (ie: this spell grants a +3, which doesn't stack with his/her +2, so this 4th level spell only amounts to a +1... why did I bother again?)
•The powerful restorative and/or planar spells usually come with a hefty monetary cost.
•Most people never make it to the Miracle levels.

Granted, this is from the perspective of a good-aligned Cleric.
But even Bad Touch Clerics have their issues.
•Most spells are SoS/D which are awful when they fail.
•Spells that maintain an effect even on a failed save require an attack roll, usually melee, which you aren't awful at, but aren't great at either.

Which takes me into Battle Clerics, which really shouldn't exist anymore thanks to Warpriests getting rid of their traditional hurdle: buffing time.

It seems like the only really good Cleric options are Minion Necromancy (VERY niche and doesn't work well in many groups) or a Channel Specialist, which requires heavy feat investment, something you are weak on as a Cleric.
[Edit - Forgot to mention you get some good Divination stuff, but you still can't hold a candle to Wiz/Sor Divination options.]

tl;dr - I think Cleric would be WAY more fun if you play it in a game with very few/no magic items. But doing that on the Pathfinder chassis is SO problematic that it's largely not worth it.


Neo2151 wrote:

I can't support this idea that the Cleric/Oracle spell list is as amazing as people are saying.

I just recently rolled with a Cleric and had constant issues picking spells to prepare:

•Most buff spells are overridden by magic item bonuses.
•Most buff spells come at such a slow progression that you're getting a VERY minor use out of them (ie: this spell grants a +3, which doesn't stack with his/her +2, so this 4th level spell only amounts to a +1... why did I bother again?)
•The powerful restorative and/or planar spells usually come with a hefty monetary cost.
•Most people never make it to the Miracle levels.

Granted, this is from the perspective of a good-aligned Cleric.
But even Bad Touch Clerics have their issues.
•Most spells are SoS/D which are awful when they fail.
•Spells that maintain an effect even on a failed save require an attack roll, usually melee, which you aren't awful at, but aren't great at either.

Which takes me into Battle Clerics, which really shouldn't exist anymore thanks to Warpriests getting rid of their traditional hurdle: buffing time.

It seems like the only really good Cleric options are Minion Necromancy (VERY niche and doesn't work well in many groups) or a Channel Specialist, which requires heavy feat investment, something you are weak on as a Cleric.
[Edit - Forgot to mention you get some good Divination stuff, but you still can't hold a candle to Wiz/Sor Divination options.]

tl;dr - I think Cleric would be WAY more fun if you play it in a game with very few/no magic items. But doing that on the Pathfinder chassis is SO problematic that it's largely not worth it.

I remember I was recently very disappointed that the ac bonus from prot. from evil didn't stack with rings of protection - and just about everyone in the party had one. But then we met an evil cleric summoning evil beasties and i was back in business/toast of the town/what have you.

Anyway, my cleric definitely isn't the most damaging, winningest guy around, but he is fun to play. And when he comes through, he really comes through (even on a simple spell like burning disarm - that's a lot of fun to throw around).


Kullen wrote:

666bender, did you notice that everyone else in the thread is posting in sentences, and that your posts are in bursts of microbytes? It kind of reminds me of my grandmother, who would sometimes sit there and interject Spanish into everyone else's English conversation, just because she knew half of them wouldn't pay attention.

I'm not saying it's wrong, just that your points would reach more people by following their lead.

English isnt my natural writing...far from it.

Sorry it doesnt suit you... My mind set was to offer another view or advice.


666bender wrote:

English isnt my natural writing...far from it.

Ah, okay, that clarifies things. Thank you, and I apologize for any offense.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
666bender wrote:

English isnt my natural writing...far from it.

Ah, okay, that clarifies things. Thank you, and I apologize for any offense.

Its ok. I try to use auto writing but the foogle phone is a poor keeper.

Dark Archive

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You people are all insane. Clerics are plenty powerful, and a very interesting class to play. One of the few classes that has a very strong and diverse roleplaying hook built right into the class. Every cleric I make is radicially different, in both playstyle and how they contribute to the combat mechanics. A cleric of the Mantis god, Iomedea, and Asmodeus are all wildly different characters. Throw in domain and subdomain choice you have a huge ability to customize your cleric.

If you're bored playing a cleric, make a more interesting cleric. Try a new god and really do some research about what the god, the church, and the clergy are like. Make up some sort prayers when you heal or buff people, and choose some spells that make sense for your god, even if they aren't the most powerful spells for that level. My cleric of Caydean Cailean had a ton of fun with the Detect Poison spell, using it soley to figure out who wasn't drunk enough yet.

Silver Crusade

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Neo2151 wrote:

I can't support this idea that the Cleric/Oracle spell list is as amazing as people are saying.

I just recently rolled with a Cleric and had constant issues picking spells to prepare: ...

The divine spell list is subtle, but very effective. Divine spells, unlike arcane spells, don't work well as a blunt instrument. If you are accustomed to beating the foe down with your spells (e.g. blaster wizard) it won't work well. Also, you must know your group and taylor your spells to your group. There are good spells, that stack, at every level. E.g. Command (1st), when used cleverly, is the funniest debuff ever; Weapon of Awe (2nd) stacks with everything; Prayer (3rd) stacks with almost everything; Freedom of Movement (4th) stacks and is always useful, etc. Some of the Communal spells are especially handy: group encounters black dragon so cleric touches entire party with Communal Resist Energy [Acid](3rd) .

Finally, a handy trick to get the most from your divine spell list is to leave open spell slots. Ideally you leave one open spell slot at every level you can cast. This gives your cleric 15 minute access to the entire divine spell list. This trick seems to be not well known, because few clerics I GM for do this. Their loss.

None of my clerics have ever had trouble choosing spells. There are never enough spell slots to go around.

Silver Crusade

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I once commanded an archer to drop her bow from her ten foot high perch. I have always been rather proud of that.

Sovereign Court

Magda Luckbender wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

I can't support this idea that the Cleric/Oracle spell list is as amazing as people are saying.

I just recently rolled with a Cleric and had constant issues picking spells to prepare: ...

The divine spell list is subtle, but very effective. Divine spells, unlike arcane spells, don't work well as a blunt instrument. If you are accustomed to beating the foe down with your spells (e.g. blaster wizard) it won't work well. Also, you must know your group and taylor your spells to your group. There are good spells, that stack, at every level. E.g. Command (1st), when used cleverly, is the funniest debuff ever; Weapon of Awe (2nd) stacks with everything; Prayer (3rd) stacks with almost everything; Freedom of Movement (4th) is always useful, etc. Some of the Communal spells are especially handy: group encounters black dragon, cleric casts Communal Resistance to Acid.

Burst of Radiance from Champions of Faith is one of the best 2nd level spells out there. Murderous Command is one of the best 1st level spells. Try a heightened persistent Murderous Command on a bad guy that's putting out a lot of physical damage sometime and watch them melt an ally.


The cleric situation is something of a farce TBH.... it has been for a while

I actually think that the cleric spell list is pretty good... 2nd best in the game behind the wizard and in some respects better. There are a couple of areas that could do with a tweak but thats all.

When Ive played clerics Ive never struggled for spells.... I'm a massive advocate of going Samsaran.... you pretty much fix the list in one swoop. But thats the problem.... you HAVE TO go Samsaran to acheive this. Ive come up against all kinds of opponents and come out trumps.... I still have fond memories of a lv 9 cleric plane shifting a lv 13 sorceror BBEG to one of the 7 hells!

BUT and its a big BUT.... it is woefully lacking in flavour and has been shafted by Paizo for a long time. Paizo has been far too biased towards arcane classes..... after 3.5 divine classes got completely NERFED.

My general rationale....

a) It is MAD.... one of the worst out there. Because as a cleric youre expected to pitch in all over the place... the all rounder option IMO is a waste of time. There are only 2 builds for clerics IMO.... heavy emphasis towards to melee and heavy casting emphasis. As a caster I always forget about Str and Con and to a degree dex in order to get the right profile.

b) It is feat STARVED.... really badly.... as the backbone of the party you would think it would get something extra to help with this... but NOOOOOOOO!!

c) Related to the above is the issue of channeling. I think positive channeling is a bit of a waste of time.... multiple wands of CLW spread around do a far better jobs IMO if people do it right and heal between encounters. Plus if youre a positive channeler you can fall into the job trap of the dreaded HEALBOT very easily... which really is a complete waste. Negative channeling can be excellent but it is VERY feat intensive and clerics dont get many away so people are reluctant to invest. Some archetypes that give up channeling in exchange for some other stuff would be an excellent idea IMO and definitely give some good options.

d) If Channeling was WIS based it would solve a huge number of issues and be a lot fairer.

e) Archetypes...... these are almost all dreadful.... the Ecclesitheurge being the worst pile of $%^&* Ive seen for a while... truly horrendous for so many reasons.

There really are no excuses from Paizo when 3PP can produce these so easily.... well balanced and adding some real flavour and fun

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/kobold-press /theosophist

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/pri est

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/flaming-crab-games/priest

These archetypes show that contrary to popular opinion, sorting the cleric class out WOULD NOT require a new spell list.

f) Related to the above a D6 divine class is a glaring omission and wouldnt be difficult to make (as proved). I'm actually thinking of drawing up my own D6 divine and posting it in homebrew/suggestions just to show how easy it can be and what flavour it could offer!


Silver Surfer wrote:
I'm a massive advocate of going Samsaran.... you pretty much fix the list in one swoop.

Which spells do you usually acquire with Mystic Past Life?


davidvs wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:
I'm a massive advocate of going Samsaran.... you pretty much fix the list in one swoop.
Which spells do you usually acquire with Mystic Past Life?

Pick 5-6 of the following and you have a very well rounded cleric spell list....

Aggressive Thundercloud (2nd)
Sickening Entanglement (2nd)
Aqueous Orb (3rd)
Vengeful Comets (3rd)
Earth Glide (4th)
Explosion of Rot (4th)
Firesnake (5th)
Wall of Fire (5th)

With the addition of Ironskin to the cleric list, Barkskin is no longer required!

Dark Archive

Again, the problem isn't that you can't do really cool things with a Cleric - it's that the class features that the Cleric has are just "ho-hum" at the absolute best. The best feeling you'll get while playing a Cleric is "I HAVE A FIX FOR THAT" but that isn't always a particularly fun fix. The spell list is very effective, yes, but it doesn't have the same kind of sparkle as the arcane caster spell list. So, while his spell list is absolutely a very strong option, it simultaneously prevents the Cleric from being very interesting.

I think that the suggestion to make Domains work more like Mysteries would be amazing. Have them work like they do now, but be WAY more flavorful, and make each alter the Cleric in a way that means a Cleric of Asmodeus and a Cleric of Sarenrae (for example) are almost nothing alike. That would solve every problem I have with the Cleric (2+Int skill points aside) being just plain boring.


Silver Surfer wrote:

{. . .}

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/flaming-crab-games/priest
{. . .}

I like how this one has:

Flaming Crab Games: Priest wrote:


Ability Scores: A priest's spells rely on Wisdom. Channel energy and many of her dogma powers are based on Charisma. And such is the case for every adventurer, a good Constitution is important.

At least they tell you up front that this class is somewhat MAD. Actually, I don't mind MAD so much, but it would be nice if more Class descriptions (including those by Paizo) had this kind of thing near the beginning to help new players. (Remember when Basic D&D used to tell you what the "Prime Requisite" was for each Class? This isn't a new idea.)

Wish that they had fleshed out the Dogmas more, though, since they went to the trouble to alter them from Domains in the first place . . . .


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Seranov wrote:

Again, the problem isn't that you can't do really cool things with a Cleric - it's that the class features that the Cleric has are just "ho-hum" at the absolute best. The best feeling you'll get while playing a Cleric is "I HAVE A FIX FOR THAT" but that isn't always a particularly fun fix. The spell list is very effective, yes, but it doesn't have the same kind of sparkle as the arcane caster spell list. So, while his spell list is absolutely a very strong option, it simultaneously prevents the Cleric from being very interesting.

I think that the suggestion to make Domains work more like Mysteries would be amazing. Have them work like they do now, but be WAY more flavorful, and make each alter the Cleric in a way that means a Cleric of Asmodeus and a Cleric of Sarenrae (for example) are almost nothing alike. That would solve every problem I have with the Cleric (2+Int skill points aside) being just plain boring.

totally disagree here.

who else has commune and divination? unless the DM is a hard-head, it can be the best adventurer problem-hint provider out there.
summons - are amazing.
i agree the stacking roles for buff suck. it is a shame at med-high level, the best buff spells like shield of faith only add 1-2 more, as all have minor rings already - but be creative.
i use shield of faith.... on summoned creatures, making them last so much longer.

Shadow Lodge

I think there is a lot more that goes towards the lack of cool factor for the Cleric.

Many of the archtypes are just poor, and that's really just because the base class itself simply lacks any features to swap out or trade.

The Oracle, Inquisitor, and Paladin have some many ways to just do the Cleric's job better, where generally the Cleric just lacks a lot of options to branch out.

It's kind of stuck in this odd place where, yes, it is a full caster, and yes, it is both a prep. and spont. caster, but a lot of the times it either can not qualify for feats and options designed for those specific types, or they can, but just do not gain much actual benefit from them.

All choices are made at level 1. They also lack any sort of Bonus Feats, later class features, skill bonuses, and I think most importantly, any sort of ether/or options a little bit later, (like a Ranger's Fighting Style, Druids Pet/Domain, etc. . . ).

There really is very little gear that is tailored towards the Cleric, and it's usually a bit better for other classes.

They don't have a single class feature that multiple other classes do not also get, but generally lack any way to get other class features from other classes that should fit very well for a certain build.

While there is a small handful of good/great Domains, most of them are bad/terrible. They really need to redo the whole Domains concept, probably add in a 2-3 more abilities to them throughout levels, and really rebalance them against all the knew materials and mechanics.

I don't think that the Cleric is uber powerful. It's on the stronger side of moderate, and probably doesn't need a big bump in straight power level, but does need a pretty big one as far as options, cool factor, and shiny things, which is kind of where it falls near the end of the line.


versatile is a matter choice. dont optimize. choose feats and spells for RP .
i tool skill focus (*2 as a human. 1 free at lvl 8) for stealth and knowledge, familiar and improve familiar. yes, it's 50% of my feats, but well worth it - it add fun!


"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I think there is a lot more that goes towards the lack of cool factor for the Cleric.

Many of the archtypes are just poor, and that's really just because the base class itself simply lacks any features to swap out or trade.
{. . .}

One thing that would go a long way (not necessarily all the way) towards fixing the Cleric's cool factor (short of a full rebuild on an Inquisitor-style chassis like I posted earlier) would be to start with doing the reverse of what Hex Channeler does for Witch. But don't just make the Cleric change antiparallel to the Witch to Hex Channeler change -- instead tie it into rebuilt Domains, which brings us to . . .

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
While there is a small handful of good/great Domains, most of them are bad/terrible. They really need to redo the whole Domains concept, probably add in a 2-3 more abilities to them throughout levels, and really rebalance them against all the knew materials and mechanics.

Make Domains work sort of like Oracle's Mysteries -- every so many levels, you can pick a Domain Revelation. Also, the way each Domain awards just 1 bonus spell at each level that grants new spell level access is really clunky -- instead, trim the overall Cleric spell list, but then have each Domain grant multiple spells at each level that grants new spell level access, like 2nd Edition's Spheres (which tied in with 2nd Edition's Specialty Priests, which were mechanically flawed, but cool). Actually would be not too shabby to do this also for Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, and any other classes that grant bonus spells. While we're at it, when a Domain (or similar thing) grants you bonus spells that you already have (currently rightly considered to make it weaker, especially when a Domain (etc.) gives you late access to the spell -- booooooooooo hiiiisssssssssss), you should get some benefit when using the spells that you wouldn't get if you just had them on your spell list once, as if you were a Wizard specializing in the school of magic that included them. If all this were done, the list of Domains and Subdomains would not have to be so enormous to confer flavor (and the same would be true of Witch Patrons if you made the same change there, and very helpful there as well -- as they are right now, Witch Patrons are mostly wasted roleplaying space in an otherwise awesome class).


Basically, the only real option, for cleric.

Is Mult-Classing into another class, and just accepting the spell level hit.

Want extra skills, a few level of Rouge, Bard, or Ranger.

Want a few extra feats and armor/weapon's, a few level of Fighter.

Want something strange, go a few level of Monk.

Other than that... your out of luck.

...........................................


Oliver McShade wrote:

Basically, the only real option, for cleric.

Is Mult-Classing into another class, and just accepting the spell level hit.

Want extra skills, a few level of Rouge, Bard, or Ranger.

Want a few extra feats and armor/weapon's, a few level of Fighter.

Want something strange, go a few level of Monk.

Other than that... your out of luck.

...........................................

There is always the Envoy of Balance, Evangelist, and Exalted Prestige Classes. Or you could just be a Shaman.


I have been playing in a game with a shaman in our party.

As far as I've seen him play, I'm starting to think of clerics as the new rogue. Seriously, is there anything they can do that a shaman can't do better?

Barring channeling, of course...which the shaman CAN do, but just not as often as a cleric with the same stats. Still, a couple less channels a day is not the big compared to how awesome wandering spirit is.


My main issue with clerics is this:

A Wizard spends decades learning the secrets of the multiverse and uses that knowledge to make reality his b+%++.

A Fighter masters battle, learning to hone his body and skills until his blade is an extension of himself.

A Rogue skulks in the shadows with incredible skill, taking advantage of the slightest lapse of their enemies.

A Cleric begs someone more powerful to come in and solve their problems for them.

See the difference? Made worse at high levels, when while the Wizard can literally create his own world through skill, power, and understanding the universe just that much the Cleric can... ask god to help, pretty please?

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