I'm pretty sure since your arms grow in length, it is reach as in a larger creature has reach, meaning you can attack adjacent AND at reach range. Now, if you had a reach weapon, and cast long-arm, that would get weirder.
As long as you aren't wielding a reach weapon, you can attack adjacent squares. A reach weapon will create a dead zone around where you cannot attack with that weapon (though things like armor spikes can remedy this).
Long Arm effectively grants you natural reach, as though you were large size category.
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I think Claxon is correct and the most sensible interpretation is that the spell increases your natural reach by 5, meaning that a medium size creature with Long Arm cast on them threatens 5 and 10ft with a non-reach weapon and 15 and 20ft with a reach weapon.
Unlike when someone uses a reach weapon, a creature with greater than normal natural reach (more than 5 feet) still threatens squares adjacent to it. A creature with greater than normal natural reach usually gets an attack of opportunity against you if you approach it, because you must enter and move within the range of its reach before you can attack it. This attack of opportunity is not provoked if you take a 5-foot step.
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.
Basically, it's like Enlarge Person but just the reach effect (no taking up more squares or adjusting stats/size modifiers).
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Yes, Claxon is correct, but Weirdo's math is wrong. It's like this:
Normal size creature affected by Long Arm, wielding a club, has 10' reach. Threatens all targets within reach.
Normal size creature affected by Long Arm, wielding a longspear, has 15' reach. Does not threaten at 5'.
Large size creature affected by Long Arm, wielding a club, has 15' reach. Threatens all targets within reach.
Large size creature affected by Long Arm, wielding a longspear, has 25' reach. Does not threaten at 5' or 10'.
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Yes, Claxon is correct, but Weirdo's math is wrong.
Pretty sure if Claxon is correct my math is also right (unless you're reading my uncorrected post).
Long Arm effectively grants you natural reach, as though you were large size category.
Large creatures with polearms threaten up to 20ft but not 10ft or less.
The alternate interpretation that Long Arm doesn't increase your natural reach by 5ft but instead increases the outer limit of your reach by 5ft. That would make your numbers correct but Claxon (and me) wrong.
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Except the text of Long Arm doesn't say it 'grants you natural reach, as though you were large size category', it specifically says that "Your arms temporarily grow in length, increasing your reach with those limbs by 5 feet." While I agree, that for rule consistency, they should have said that you gain the reach of a large creature, or the next larger sized creature, they did not. Remember, most of the posts in this forum are due to the fact that Pathfinder has pretty much NO consistency between various similar rules/effects.
Because this specifically adds an absolute 5 ft of reach:
http://i.imgur.com/8BLfCjj.png
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On reflection, I agree with CraziFuzzy and Magda's numbers. The lack of a well-defined term "reach" as opposed to "natural reach" or "reach weapon" confused me, but it appears that there's a precedent with Lunge (the only other effect I can find that increases reach without increasing size).
EDIT: Still confused why Magda thought my premise was right but math was wrong, since it was the reverse.
Weirdo, looking at both of your math, it looks like you added an extra 5' when you said a medium size creature with Long Arm and a reach weapon will hit 15-20' and not 5-10'. It looks like your mistake is looking at it as if the person was enlarged, which enlarges the weapon as well. A large reach weapon has a range of +10', a medium reach weapon has +5'.
The math:
Medium creature = 5' reach
Medium Weapon Reach = 5'R - R designates that the reach is shifted away from the subject - 5R means 5' bubble and +5' to reach.
Medium creature with reach weapon has 10' reach, bubble at 5'. (5+5R)
Medium creature with Long Arm = 10' reach, no bubble (5+5)
Medium creature with long arm and reach = 15' reach, bubble at 5' (5+5+5R)
Large Creature with Large Weapon = 10' Reach, no bubble (10)
Large Creature with Large Weapon and Long Arm = 15' Reach (10+5)
Large creature with Large reach weapon = 15-20' reach, bubble at 5-10' (10+10R)
Large creature with Long Arm and Large Reach Weapon = 15-25' reach, bubble at 5-10' (10+5+10R)
At least that is my understanding based on my reading of lunge.
(Edited to add the actual math)
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Weirdo, looking at both of your math, it looks like you added an extra 5' when you said a medium size creature with Long Arm and a reach weapon will hit 15-20' and not 5-10'. It looks like your mistake is looking at it as if the person was enlarged,
Yes, that's what I mean by "the premise was wrong, the math was right." As noted.
A large reach weapon has a range of +10', a medium reach weapon has +5'.
While it might be the intent to tie reach to weapon size, it's not the current rule. I cited "big and little creatures" above, but it is a general rule that a reach weapon doubles the wielder's natural reach (even for medium creatures):
Reach Weapons: A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
The reference to a large character wielding an appropriately sized weapon suggests that weapon size is intended to have some effect on final reach, but (1) that restriction isn't stated and (2) if it were, it would likely be like this 3.5 FAQ and prevent undersized weapons from granting reach, not allowing a medium size creature wielding a large reach weapon to threaten at 15ft (5ft natural+10ft weapon). As far as I know a medium creature with a large weapon isn't currently possible RAW but could happen if you're using the designer's interpretation of Titan Mauler.
The reason that Lunge and Long Arm don't appear to RAW increase a human longspearman's reach to 15ft-20ft is not that the weapon is medium, but that Lunge and Long Arm don't affect natural reach. Instead they increase reach after the multiplication provided by a reach weapon.
Math:
Outer limit = (natural reach+5)x2 = (5+5)x2 = 20
Inner limit = natural reach x2 = 5x2 = 10
Outer Limit = natural reach+weapon reach + 5 = 5+5+5 = 15
Inner Limit = weapon reach = 5
Outer limit = (natural reachx2)+5 = (5x2)+5 = 15
Inner limit = natural reach = 5
Note that the last two are no longer identical if natural reach stops being identical to "weapon reach."
As I showed on my table, there are different rules depending on what size you are. The rules for small and medium creatures with reach weapons are different than the rules for large and larger creatures. (And there aren't rules for reach weapons on smaller than small creatures).
Long Arm, however, does not distinguish between size. It simply increases reach 5 ft. It does not specify the effect for various creatures or weapons, but it does have a range of personal, and says that your arms are made longer reach is increased with those limbs. I don't see how that can be considered anything other than an increase natural reach of 5 ft. With natural reach now increased 5 ft, the appropriate reach weapon rules for the creature's size can be used to fill in the table.
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The rules for small and medium creatures with reach weapons are different than the rules for large and larger creatures. (And there aren't rules for reach weapons on smaller than small creatures).
That's not true. "Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach." That's not in big and little creatures in combat, that's under "Reach Weapons." It's a general rule no matter what size you are. This also means a tiny or smaller creature doesn't benefit from a reach weapon (since twice reach 0 is 0).
Long Arm, however, does not distinguish between size.
It doesn't have to. "Increase your natural reach by 5ft" is, for a small or medium-size creature, identical to "increase your reach to that of a large creature."
I don't see how that can be considered anything other than an increase natural reach of 5 ft.
Except the text of Long Arm doesn't say it 'grants you natural reach, as though you were large size category', it specifically says that "Your arms temporarily grow in length, increasing your reach with those limbs by 5 feet." ...
Because this specifically adds an absolute 5 ft of reach:
http://i.imgur.com/8BLfCjj.png
So do you think it adds to natural reach (before the doubling operation) or "absolute reach" (after the doubling operation)?
Since it is affecting the persons actual arm reach, I think that means his natural reach is extended. The problem is that, with the way the rules are written (written before someone could arbitrarily make their arms 5 ft longer), the statement of 'doubling' is in there, making it all get wonky. It would of course, been much easier, if many many years ago, the reach on a weapon was more defined as x ft, with a multiplier based on size. Then you could have a 'natural reach' and a 'weapon reach'.
In that ideal situation, it would be much simpler:
Weapon_Reach = Base_Weapon_Reach * Weapon_Reach_Size_Multiplier
Min_Threat_Range = Weapon_Reach
Max_Thread_Range = Natural_Reach + Weapon_Reach
Base_Weapon_Reach would be the reach added by the medium version of the weapon (typically 5 ft, but sometimes more, i.e. 10 ft for a whip).
Unfortunately, as with most things, unless a rewrite of the rules is going to happen, we'll get constant inconsistencies like this any time a new concept is added that anywhere touches the old rules. That's the bloat that is avoided with new versions.
PF2.0 would be a beautiful thing...
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Since it is affecting the persons actual arm reach, I think that means his natural reach is extended. The problem is that, with the way the rules are written (written before someone could arbitrarily make their arms 5 ft longer), the statement of 'doubling' is in there, making it all get wonky.
It's not wonky. If a medium creature has a natural reach of 10ft, they wield reach weapons like a typical large creature (natural reach 10ft).
It does, however, contradict the precedent set by Lunge.
I think it would unnecessarily complicate things to have a separate size-dependent weapon reach. It would be nice if the rules for reach weapons specified that an effect increasing reach (as opposed to "natural reach") increases the outer limit of the creature's striking range, but not the area in which they cannot strike. Assuming that's the intention.
A separate numerical property on the weapon (Keep in mind, this would still only show up on reach weapons, otherwise it's zero feet) is no more complicated than the 'most double the natural reach rule', is more accepting of various modifications, and is simply easier to grasp.
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It's two new variables, one weapon property and one size modifier, and the latter requires a chart to look up. I prefer to avoid charts where possible.
I also don't see fiddling with the reach granted by an inappropriately sized weapon as much of a benefit, assuming that's what you mean by "accepting of various modifications." It might be a bit more realistic, but this is a game that gives small and medium creatures the same reach for the sake of balance and simplicity.
The only real problem with the current reach rules is a lack of a clear definition for "reach" with respect to "natural reach" and "reach weapon."
my comment on "accepting various modifications" was regarding the rules being able to allow future abilities to affect things differently, avoiding what we are specifically talking about. A new spell, that should be simple to parse out is incredibly difficult, because the core rules take too many things as fixed (like the reach of a creature, in this case). This is why everything should be a variable, even if most the time that variable never changes.. because at some point, if the rules continue to bloat, someone will want to change it.