Way of the Angry Bear 3: The Guide to Bear Fisted Fighting!


Advice

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Having a bit of trouble with the Crusher build, not because it doesn't eventually become a combat monster, but it takes longer to bloom than the Mauler build, which I am getting the feeling people don't like.

How did the Mauler build go down though? What did people think?

prototype00


druid are amazing crusher. the power of grapple isn't damage, it's pinning and shutting down .
my favorite are the following:
1) greater grapple needed
2) wild shape into a hangman tree (reach of 60')
3) cast the lvl 2 spell that add grab to your attacks \ take the feat that add grab to all attacks.
4) airwalk 60' up.

round 1 : attack > grab > grapple (standard action) > grapple to move foe (move action) > let go (free).
yes, the foe has a free "get out try" . but it's a nice tactics.

another option is grab > pin = round 1. for try go get out (lets say he makes it) and you re do. as long as you win the check, you are 1-0 Vs the foe.


prototype00: I got two bits for ya here.

1. We were having a discussion in another thread about magic items that can be used while polymorphed. An opinion was shared there by Skylancer4 that I haven't heard shared before. I thought that since wearing gear was fairly pivotal to your builds that you may wish to weigh in with your opinion on what types of gear are usable while Wild Shaped as it may help people here.

2. Have you seen the Canopy Creeper? I ran an encounter with this thing against my party. I am thinking that the reach must be intended to not be what is written... otherwise, um... Combat Reflexes please!


Mauler build was awesome, I really want to try on that "zen advice dire tiger" style with the sensei archetype.


Just saw that there is a huge feline now, the Warcat.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/warcat

Could be awesome for the Lion Shamans or Nimble Guardians.


... Four claws on a pounce, huge size, this kitty is better than the Allosaurus!

prototype00


Lune wrote:

prototype00: I got two bits for ya here.

1. We were having a discussion in another thread about magic items that can be used while polymorphed. An opinion was shared there by Skylancer4 that I haven't heard shared before. I thought that since wearing gear was fairly pivotal to your builds that you may wish to weigh in with your opinion on what types of gear are usable while Wild Shaped as it may help people here. [/url]

I'm no authority, really. I just wait for the faqs. The table variance on what you can get away with seems to be quite high, so I mostly just assume most things merge and armor bonuses don't function.

Quote:
2. Have you seen the Canopy Creeper? I ran an encounter with this thing against my party. I am thinking that the reach must be intended to not be what is written... otherwise, um... Combat Reflexes please!

Ooh, good find. 4 of the same attack (vine tendrils) would also work well with feral combat training (though how you would get weapon focus vine tendril before level 12 does put a damper on wildshaping.)

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:

... Four claws on a pounce, huge size, this kitty is better than the Allosaurus!

prototype00

Trample too.


How do you manage dungeons? Being Huge could be a problem.


Chris Rivers 682 wrote:
How do you manage dungeons? Being Huge could be a problem.

Most dungeons I've noticed in published adventures are built to accomodate at least large creatures (don't want to have a cave without a dragon in it, I suppose).

I have lamented that normal human sized doors are a druid's most dire nemesis in the past.

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:

... Four claws on a pounce, huge size, this kitty is better than the Allosaurus!

prototype00

how 4? there is no rake...


Ah my mistake, it has rend. Does rend deal claw damage?


prototype00 wrote:
Ah my mistake, it has rend. Does rend deal claw damage?

maybe so, but no druid gain rend...


prototype00 wrote:
Chris Rivers 682 wrote:
How do you manage dungeons? Being Huge could be a problem.

Most dungeons I've noticed in published adventures are built to accomodate at least large creatures (don't want to have a cave without a dragon in it, I suppose).

I have lamented that normal human sized doors are a druid's most dire nemesis in the past.

prototype00

you are a druid.... go through the door...

the door way i mean ...
#MakingADoorHUGE


On the Canopy Creeper... did you see it's "reach"?


Lune wrote:
On the Canopy Creeper... did you see it's "reach"?

well, yes. but it's a weird one . as it's range attack.

also it cause no damage other than grapple and pull.

i prefer quickwood. 60' is enough and way better damage.
bite + 3 roots = killer.
can a druid have enough feats, with some dips, to have whirlwind attack & greater trip ? 60' area of attack > trip > AOO up to dex limit isnt bad.

even without, bite & 3 roots, add the lvl 2 spell that add grab ability and you are done.


666bender wrote:
Lune wrote:
On the Canopy Creeper... did you see it's "reach"?

well, yes. but it's a weird one . as it's range attack.

also it cause no damage other than grapple and pull.

i prefer quickwood. 60' is enough and way better damage.
bite + 3 roots = killer.
can a druid have enough feats, with some dips, to have whirlwind attack & greater trip ? 60' area of attack > trip > AOO up to dex limit isnt bad.

even without, bite & 3 roots, add the lvl 2 spell that add grab ability and you are done.

It seems that the SRD version of the CC is wrong or pehaps it was made by someone that ditent really have the rules too close. Or pehaps a editor:)


I thought the same thing but I looked it up on other web resources and it is printed the same way. I do not own the book. Does anyone own the book it is from to check?

Otherwise, I would think that is one of the best creatures ever for reach. Its reach is redonkulous.


Lune wrote:

I thought the same thing but I looked it up on other web resources and it is printed the same way. I do not own the book. Does anyone own the book it is from to check?

Otherwise, I would think that is one of the best creatures ever for reach. Its reach is redonkulous.

and when it makes the grab it Pull you all the way in:) i think somebody was sleepnig when they made that one.


I ran an encounter with the thing and reading that stat block just frustrated me in trying to figure out what they intended...


prototype00 wrote:

Well, there's two basic routes.

1. Straight druid + Tetori ) with Shaping Focus to make up the 4 multiclassed Monk levels.
- Final Embrace Feat line to get double damage to constrict
- Normally, the best Wildshape forms don't get constrict (Allosaurus for example), so get an Anaconda Coils belt
- Kill things.

Cons: Belt is expensive and takes up +Str slot

2.Nagaji Naga Aspirant + Tetori
- Naga wildshape allows you to take the final embrace feat line without having constrict (it in fact gives you constrict)
- Lots of nice arcane Spells that are not normally

Cons: You don't get higher Wildshape forms and the Naga is only large.

The halfling Underfoot adept is mostly for tripping.

prototype00

is this PFS legal? and viable? if so, can i get a level breakdown?


Heya folks.

I'm currently trying to build my Mauler with a Catfolk.
However I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how to calculate my amount of attacks and damage - especially when wildshaping (or using my totem).

Lion Shaman, btw - using tigers, though (RPG purposes, I'm from a Sabretooth Tribe).

If you want to can list my abilities etc. in the next post in detail.
Level is currently still low, Monk: 1 and Druid: 3

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 12


Evilserran wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

Well, there's two basic routes.

1. Straight druid + Tetori ) with Shaping Focus to make up the 4 multiclassed Monk levels.
- Final Embrace Feat line to get double damage to constrict
- Normally, the best Wildshape forms don't get constrict (Allosaurus for example), so get an Anaconda Coils belt
- Kill things.

Cons: Belt is expensive and takes up +Str slot

2.Nagaji Naga Aspirant + Tetori
- Naga wildshape allows you to take the final embrace feat line without having constrict (it in fact gives you constrict)
- Lots of nice arcane Spells that are not normally

Cons: You don't get higher Wildshape forms and the Naga is only large.

The halfling Underfoot adept is mostly for tripping.

prototype00

is this PFS legal? and viable? if so, can i get a level breakdown?

I'm not so sure about PFS legal as I don't play PFS and don't know about their rules and exceptions. Perhaps someone else will chime in?

On the level breakdown, I have been trying to make one, but run into the problem that the multiclass takes too long to mature (around lvl 15 or so, I think) since you want Greater and Rapid grapple as well as decent unarmed damage.

I'll see what I can do, but the mauler is probably the more PFS ready variant of the FoF.

Quote:

Heya folks.

I'm currently trying to build my Mauler with a Catfolk.
However I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how to calculate my amount of attacks and damage - especially when wildshaping (or using my totem).

Lion Shaman, btw - using tigers, though (RPG purposes, I'm from a Sabretooth Tribe).

If you want to can list my abilities etc. in the next post in detail.
Level is currently still low, Monk: 1 and Druid: 3

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 12

Your unarmed damage would be that of a first level Monk, 1d6. I recommend you two hand a quaterstaff and magic it up with Shillelagh.

prototype00


@Prototype00: thanks. Alright, details or it doesn't make sense I guess :)

Catling
Druid w/ Shaman, Lion Totem
Monk, Master of Many Styles

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 12

Equipment (currently):
-Claw Blades, Masterworked, +1
-Chain Shirt of Brawling +1

Feats & Abilities (I'll leave the non-combat out, such as nature bond etc):

-Dragon Style: +2 saves vs. sleep, paralysis, stun, ignore terrain, 1st Attk. + 1 1/2 STR Modifier
-Totem Transformation (minutes / lvl): natural weapons > bite 1d4, 2x claws each 1d4, rake, +2 CMB to grapple
-Improved Grapple
-Weapon Focus (Claws)
-Unarmed Strike
-Improves Unarmed Strike

Obviously I want to use my totem transformation to be my main use until I have wildshape (missing 1 level for that afaik).
Not even sure what would change when achieving wild shape to be honest.

What confuses me currently is the calculation of attacks from monk in synergy with the druid - if there are any at this point.
I have no enlarge yet at this point.

Spells:

0:Guidance
1: Magic Fang
2: Barkskin

Hope I did not miss out on anything.

So thanks to Dragon Style, Monk & Druid I can Charge like there is no tomorrow (given that there is the room, otherwise Acrobatics will help, too).
Charge, however, allows only one meager attack in the end - while in the guide it's always full bab to my understanding.

In my reality so far, charge would only get me to use "grapple" once I reach the enemy, causing my "rake" to trigger.

Next round it would be what? One Unarmed strike from monk, 1 bite, 2 claws + rake (2 claws again)?


No one?


MadKiefer wrote:

Equipment (currently):
-Claw Blades, Masterworked, +1
-Chain Shirt of Brawling +1

These Claw Blades will be useless for you when you wildshape. You want to make more natural attacks, not revert to making iterative attacks with a weapon (which is what claw blades give you)

The armor bonus from chain shirt of brawling will be equally scuttled until you get the wild property, but the brawling should remain. +2 is nice, so I'd keep those.

Quote:

Obviously I want to use my totem transformation to be my main use until I have wildshape (missing 1 level for that afaik).

Not even sure what would change when achieving wild shape to be honest.

What confuses me currently is the calculation of attacks from monk in synergy with the druid - if there are any at this point.
I have no enlarge yet at this point.

Spells:

0:Guidance
1: Magic Fang
2: Barkskin

You are a medium character. The Totem transformation does what it says on the tin. You cannot use the natural attacks from the totem transformation at full BaB if you use the claw blades.

When you reach character level 7, (Monk 1/ Lion Shaman 6) you can wildshape into a Huge Warbeast, mentioned upthread, which is proabably (though one can argue the 4 claws on a charge for the dire tiger might be equal) the best wildshape form you can take.

Quote:

In my reality so far, charge would only get me to use "grapple" once I reach the enemy, causing my "rake" to trigger.

Next round it would be what? One Unarmed strike from monk, 1 bite, 2 claws + rake (2 claws again)?

Yes, though your natural attacks are at huge penalties until you have Multiattack, if you want to take that unarmed monk strike.

prototype00


First an foremost: thanks for the answer, really helpful!

You are correct, of course. I need to drop the blades - I was looking for a way to improve my "hit" with natural weapons. Any suggestions? Because currently it plain simply sucks when using the Totem.

My armor (including Armor Spikes, btw) should, of course, add to it until I use Wild Shape. Then you are right, it would need the extra spell of "Wild" on it...which is a +3...ugh, gonna take a while to get that kinda money. But at least I got the brawling bonus still applied, which is nice.

Alrights, let's talk combat strategies and penalties here.

Taking in my specc above sans the blades:

Charge attack > 1 attack left after successful charger = Grapple.
If grapple successful, rake (?) same round or next?
Next round, grapple check (if I read up correctly) + FullBAB.
I assume that the monk is only there for giving special perks, such as the "Dragon Style" - but does not really add anything to the combat as of yet?

prototype00 wrote:
MadKiefer wrote:

Equipment (currently):
-Claw Blades, Masterworked, +1
-Chain Shirt of Brawling +1

These Claw Blades will be useless for you when you wildshape. You want to make more natural attacks, not revert to making iterative attacks with a weapon (which is what claw blades give you)

The armor bonus from chain shirt of brawling will be equally scuttled until you get the wild property, but the brawling should remain. +2 is nice, so I'd keep those.

Quote:

Obviously I want to use my totem transformation to be my main use until I have wildshape (missing 1 level for that afaik).

Not even sure what would change when achieving wild shape to be honest.

What confuses me currently is the calculation of attacks from monk in synergy with the druid - if there are any at this point.
I have no enlarge yet at this point.

Spells:

0:Guidance
1: Magic Fang
2: Barkskin

You are a medium character. The Totem transformation does what it says on the tin. You cannot use the natural attacks from the totem transformation at full BaB if you use the claw blades.

When you reach character level 7, (Monk 1/ Lion Shaman 6) you can wildshape into a Huge Warbeast, mentioned upthread, which is proabably (though one can argue the 4 claws on a charge for the dire tiger might be equal) the best wildshape form you can take.

Quote:

In my reality so far, charge would only get me to use "grapple" once I reach the enemy, causing my "rake" to trigger.

Next round it would be what? One Unarmed strike from monk, 1 bite, 2 claws + rake (2 claws again)?

Yes, though your natural attacks are at huge penalties until you have Multiattack, if you want to take that unarmed monk strike.

prototype00


i've very much enjoyed the guide and this thread. Thanks everyone for some well thought out build strategies.

On a side note, it looks like the warcat has a typo on it's Trample entry. Per standard trample rules entry, damage should be slam damage + 1 & 1/2 strength modifier. Trample for the war at lists as 2d8. Since there's no listed slam, its probably safe to adjust to 2d8+18.


RegUS PatOff wrote:

i've very much enjoyed the guide and this thread. Thanks everyone for some well thought out build strategies.

On a side note, it looks like the warcat has a typo on it's Trample entry. Per standard trample rules entry, damage should be slam damage + 1 & 1/2 strength modifier. Trample for the war at lists as 2d8. Since there's no listed slam, its probably safe to adjust to 2d8+18.

Speaking of which: CR13 - what level of Shaman(Druid) would you need to shape into that freak of nature :3

Liberty's Edge

Just made a thread for advice on a mauler and I wanted to ask if horn of the cryosphinx works on claws with feral combat training?


MadKiefer wrote:
RegUS PatOff wrote:

i've very much enjoyed the guide and this thread. Thanks everyone for some well thought out build strategies.

On a side note, it looks like the warcat has a typo on it's Trample entry. Per standard trample rules entry, damage should be slam damage + 1 & 1/2 strength modifier. Trample for the war at lists as 2d8. Since there's no listed slam, its probably safe to adjust to 2d8+18.

Speaking of which: CR13 - what level of Shaman(Druid) would you need to shape into that freak of nature :3

6th for Lion Shamans, 8th for other Druids.

Quote:
Just made a thread for advice on a mauler and I wanted to ask if horn of the cryosphinx works on claws with feral combat training?
Quote:

Special: A monk can use this feat as long as he is wielding a two-handed weapon or both his hands are empty.

Note: A monk can take any of these feats as bonus feats at the indicated levels. To benefit from the feats, monks must have both hands free and capable of delivering an unarmed strike.

The scary thing here is that it doesn't seem the feat is limited to unarmed strikes, as long as both his hands are empty, claws, bites, and talons all benefit, RAW from Horn of the Criosphinx on a charge.

Interesting...

prototype00


Heya @prootype00

Thanks again - sounds pretty awesome, however upon reading up on Wild Shape I realized I have to apply the new rules of "beast shape"

And beast shape does not say that you get the attacks of the animals you change into

Thread here for reference: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s8nh?Advice-please-Wild-Shape-Beast-Shape#4

Has this been taken into account in the guides?


MadKiefer wrote:

Heya @prootype00

Thanks again - sounds pretty awesome, however upon reading up on Wild Shape I realized I have to apply the new rules of "beast shape"

And beast shape does not say that you get the attacks of the animals you change into

Thread here for reference: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s8nh?Advice-please-Wild-Shape-Beast-Shape#4

Has this been taken into account in the guides?

May I direct you to the document covering Polymorph type spells of the Transmutation subschool and the pertinent line:

Quote:
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

prototype00


One has to wonder why the creators of the great Druid had to hide all these necessary information among 3 different chapters :) THANKS so much - I think I'm settled now and can start fill in my wild shape documents.


Quick question. What is the purpose of getting more Druid levels after you get Druid level 6 for the Wild Shape versus taking levels in another class such as Fighter for extra Feats and better BAB? I get that you will probably give up spellcasting but are there any spells that you get that will be better than what you can get from other classes for those other 4 levels?


Th3taSigma wrote:
Quick question. What is the purpose of getting more Druid levels after you get Druid level 6 for the Wild Shape versus taking levels in another class such as Fighter for extra Feats and better BAB? I get that you will probably give up spellcasting but are there any spells that you get that will be better than what you can get from other classes for those other 4 levels?

Strong Jaw is a good amount of damage at the damage dice concerned.


Larger (or smaller, or more elemental, or more plantish), more frequent and more powerful wild shapes.


Ok I can see taking 7 levels now to get Strong Jaw, although you could always just buy a wand of that.

Dark Archive

Because Druids have actual class features (in addition to the versatile and powerful Druid spell list) and most martial classes don't have anything even remotely as useful to offer. Additionally your animal companion doesn't gain levels alongside you, or your Domain powers never get stronger.

If all you wanted Druid for is Wild Shape, it's fine, but don't discount roughly 60% of the class' good stuff just because it doesn't necessarily make you better at mauling things (which it actually does, but it's just not innate).


Th3taSigma: I answered your question. Did you read Wild Shape? Aside from the other class features that a druid gets after gaining Wild Shape (a more powerful animal companion, Venom Immunity, A Thousand Faces, Timeless Body, more spells, etc.) your Wild Shape ability itself improves.

Wild Shape:

At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

A druid can use this ability an additional time per day at 6th level and every two levels thereafter, for a total of eight times at 18th level. At 20th level, a druid can use wild shape at will. As a druid gains in levels, this ability allows the druid to take on the form of larger and smaller animals, elementals, and plants. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.

At 6th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape II. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape functions as elemental body I.

At 8th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid's wild shape functions as plant shape I.

At 10th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large elemental or a Large plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body III. When taking the form of a plant, the druid's wild shape now functions as plant shape II.

At 12th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge elemental or a Huge plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body IV. When taking the form of a plant, the druid's wild shape now functions as plant shape III.


The party I run with only has 3 regular players and the GM. To keep us from being overwhelmed /even with a char-op obsessive like me/, we've been playing gestalted characters. So this guide, obviously, has been a real treat.
As is, I'm planning out an Oread Saurian Shaman/Unchained Monk, with dumped Int and Cha. After the relatively easy choices of archetype bonus feats and the less-fun selection of monk bonus feats, I'm left with how to order my first 3 regular feats. Would it be legal to take Weapon Focus Claws at level 1 sans claw access /until I reach level 2/? If not, is there some other early feat I should pick over bleeding attack aka beliers bite?


Hello, fellow Kaiju's, I must say I love this multiclass build, but I just have one question:

Say I'm WS-ing into an Allosaurus, how can you use your Unarmed Strikes when you have already used those limbs to use your claws?

The guide seems to imply that having Multiattack allows you to do this, but I don't see how that is true, judging by the feat's description.

Edit: Also, does having a high BAB give more Unarmed Strikes, even while WS-ing?


Allosauruses have feet to make kicks with and a tail to smack you with.


More like knees, elbows and headbutts I was thinking. You can claw and elbow can't you?


Of course! You don't only need to use your hands to do Unarmed Strikes! Thanks :)


hey guys - i very much enjoyed that guide an the ideas it gave me!
until then i looked down on grappling builds ;/

got a quick question for you... is der any way to get constrict (except for the final embrace feats)? becaus all i can find are items with a fixed dmg of 1d6...

thanks in advance =)


I have updated the guide with my thoughts on the Nimble Guardian. I will probably take the opportunity on my vacation to upload one or two more builds.

Anything else I might have missed?

prototype00


Have dropped pummelling style and dependent feats to red since it now specifies unarmed strikes only.

Prototype00

Scarab Sages

Conqueror Ooze with 10 levels of Mythic. Pure insanity. That is all.


The build with the highest single hit damage combined with Pathfinder's optional overpowered subsystem? I'm not surprised.

Is this personal experience? Did you one round tko Cthulhu?

Prototype00

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