I don't know if this will work right. I am not that good at creating casters, but I want to play a full caster class. I want to specialize in illusions and some divination magic as I feel they go hand in hand. Dabbling in harrow ed stuff would be fun as well. I am looking for suggestions to make this work. I am trying to veer away from a front line killer of sorts. We use a 20 point buy and anything pathfinder product. I feel this character will be a con artist dazzling people with illusions and special affects only to take their money and run. Kind of going to the redemption style stories that WotR focuses on. Any ideas or suggestions would be awesome.
A witch comes to mind immediately. Trickery patron, perhaps. Choose more subtle spells and hexes. You could also make this work with a bard easily enough.
Hadn't considered the Witch. Do they have good access to most of the divination and illusion spells?
While an Oracle seems a better fit for the theme "gypsy"to me, since you want arcane magic, I agree with the other posters, witch is the obvious choice - thematically anyway.
Looking at the Witch spell list, I see plenty of detects and augury at 2nd level, and some illusion spells in there as well.
I would not say I am against a divine character. I am looking at options. I am strongly in favor of trying my hand at illusion spells and feel they are something a gypsy style character would use.
It may not be a full caster but a bard fits what you want. They get both Illusion and Divination spells. The bonus to all knowledge skills also fits the gypsy fortune teller. A good knowledge roll can often get you as much information as a divination spell, and sometimes even more.
If thinking about a “gypsy” theme I can see the appeal of a divination focused “fortune teller”. It also might be fun to remember that the Romani (and presumably the Varisians) also tend to be very involved with music. In my mind this makes Bard a very good class for Varisian characters.
I guess if you’re set on a “full caster” then Bards would probably be out of the question. An Evangelist Cleric can use bardic performances and might be pretty good at divinations though not divinations. A dual cursed Heavens Oracle with Awesome Display and Misfortune could be pretty effective on all fronts and would fit your desire to disable people with illusions while you steal their gold very well. I guess Witch could be a fun choice too since Evil Eye and Bestow Curse would be very thematic.
It could also be fun to consider whether your PC might like to have a gypsy vardo (wagon). If so you might find the Sylvan blooded Sorcerer interesting since it gets an animal companion. My girlfriend’s “gypsy” PC in a recent game was Oracle 1 / Wizard (Diviner) 1 / Sorcerer 15 to make use of the Oracle abilities I’ve mentioned plus never being surprised and being able to pre-roll a d20 several rounds per day. My PC had levels primarily as a Dirge Bard since I liked the musical aspect and felt that the added fear and necromancy powers were cool. Our PCs both rode around in a foamboard vardo pulled by her animal companion (first a horse and later a megaloceros “stag”)
You all make excellent points and before this I hadn't thought of a bard although I guess they can fit almost exactly. I have never played a bard before. This is a replacement charter for the campaign as it has already started. After comments and a lot more reading I lean towards bard or sorcerer as I think the skills and such will fit better.
If it helps the party is melee focused with an inquisitor, a fighter, a paladin, and an archery ranger.
I really like my Harrower.
Wizard 5 (Divination - Foresight sub school, though Scrying sub school works great as well)
Harrower 1 so far.High Dex, High Int, World Traveller to give Sense Motive as a class skill. Harrower gives Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills as well.
Hat of Disguise or Western Star Ioun Stone for Disguise Self at will, all day every day.
He performs Harrowings. If the client doesn't want a guy to do the harrowing, he can always go in the back and get his "sister" or "Grams" to do the harrowing for him. Disguise self + Silent image of "him" leading "Grams" out then leaving, and 5 ranks in Perform (Act) to make it convincing, and you need the ranks in Perform() anyway. Throw in a Detect Thoughts for those extra special customers.
Foresight sub school because I prefer to play him as lucky and/or "knowing it will work." I almost went with the Scrying sub school for eaves dropping on clients while he's "talking to Grams." Either would work. Divination specialization means you always act in the surprise round and get at least a +2 to your initiative by the time you enter Harrower, so even if the bad guys catch up on you and ambush you, you're likely to be able to slip away from them.
Illusion as a specialization school works well, too. I'm just hooked on the Divination school and it seemed to fit better for this character.
For combat, I use a lot of Illusions and Enchantments, Conjuration is I really need to do damage. I actually took Necromancy and Evocation as opposition schools to force myself to use creative solutions.
Divination is great for out of combat stuff, second level is chock full of good stuff. Need to make a knowledge check? Page Bound Epiphany gives you a bonus equal to your level if you spend your level +1 in rounds. I love to abuse Detect Thoughts, Secret Speech is hilarious and potentially really useful in...
I really like this idea as well. The schools I would have given up are the same. Also harrowing randomness does seem intriguing. I usually play those over the top offense characters. This time I want to encourage more role playing at the table and diversify my abilities as player as well.
I forgot about the cartomancer. That witch idea looks awesome as well. Why does everything sound good? My problem is seeing how each of these would perform. Which will be highly dependent on the gm. Too many fun character ideas not enough games to play them in.
There's a Deadly Dealer feat which would allow you to attack people by throwing Harrow cards at them. I'm not sure how effective it would be for most PCs, but if you're looking for style over substance it might be pretty cool.
Bards are incredibly varied and have both casting and subterfuge. If I'm to suggest a default class for the "gypsy" archetype (in fact, for several different archetypes, positive and negative) in Pathfinder it would probably be this one. You have a lot of skills - possibly more than any other class if you go vanilla bard or any archetype that keeps bardic knowledge or an equivalent - and tend to be the default party face as well as a decent caster. It shines in a group either large enough to have a full-time support charcter or small enough so everyone must be able to do multiple things. With your good charisma, plenty of skills and UMD as a class skill the bard is also great at using UMD to "cast" spells on another's list. It doesn't have quite as good divinations as the right witch or diviner wizard, but gets a fair few. If anything, s/he's even better at illusion and enchantments.
The basic bard works great for the concept, as well as imo the archeologist (less party support oriented, more being able to get into and out of strange, guarded or trapped places), magician (bard focusing on magic and mysticism) and the sandman (a more subtle, roguish bard).
Your group seems to have some decent damage dealers so bardic performances will be very useful. While your group probably does not have problems in combat by increasing all of them you add more damage than using spells in combat.
Most full casters will usually end up using a lot of their spells in combat. With a bard you have better things to do in combat so you can save your spell for out of combat. Most illusion and divination spells are better out of combat anyways.
Most of your group have very little magic except the inquisitor and even he has a limited number of spells. The bard is a CHA based character with UMD as a class skill and plenty of skill points to burn. Maxing out UMD will allow you to use a lot of items designed for other classes.
A fake fortuneteller, maybe, but I'm not sure how an actual diviner - which PF does allow you to do - is particularly offensive. You're just running with a theme Paizo themselves gave an entire cultural group.
Gypsy is indeed considered an offensive term by some people. This is one reason why I mentioned the term Romani and pointed out that the analogous race in the game would be Varisians. Maybe I could have done a better job by not using the potentially offensive term to introduce the others. On the other hand, there's a band called the Gipsy Kings, and Eugene Hutz of Gogol Bordello has referred to their music as "Gypsy Punk".
Speaking of Gogol Bordello and music in general, here are links to a couple of songs. The first is more traditional. The second one touches on the oppression of the Romani which has persisted even into modern times and the idea of "breaking the spell" which has kept it going:
Kanizsa Csillagai - Tu Jesty Fata
Gogol Bordello - Break the Spell
Emphasizing music in addition to or instead of just being a bandana wearing fortune teller might be fun though surely some folks could find that stereotypical or offensive too. I doubt that the OP's intent was to offend anybody though. He (or she?) probably just thinks this would be a fun character to play.
I tend to agree with the Shaman.
If one was conforming to the negative stereotype of a Romani inspired con-man (or woman) trying to bilk people out of their money with fake fortune telling - that is wrong.
However considering a Romani inspired person with actual oracular powers as in the magic is real, that is a healthy, non-prejudicial way that in no way slurs the people in a negative way. Doing so does the opposite of the negative stereotype - its a good thing, in comparison.
Talking with a buddy from game and all the great advice I have received so far, I have decided to go with a Gnome Illusionist Bard. Still doing the whole fortune teller thing. Never played a bard before or really used illusion spells. So where should I start.
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I tend to agree with the Shaman.
If one was conforming to the negative stereotype of a Romani inspired con-man (or woman) trying to bilk people out of their money with fake fortune telling - that is wrong.
However considering a Romani inspired person with actual oracular powers as in the magic is real, that is a healthy, non-prejudicial way that in no way slurs the people in a negative way. Doing so does the opposite of the negative stereotype - its a good thing, in comparison.
A fake fortuneteller, maybe, but I'm not sure how an actual diviner - which PF does allow you to do - is particularly offensive. You're just running with a theme Paizo themselves gave an entire cultural group.
OP specifically mentioned being a con artist though. Look, I'm not saying OP is a racist or intentionally offending anybody, but at the end of the day there would never be a thread about how to play a black, asian, or latino stereotype. Yet here we have people actively encouraging this behavior.
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People need to calm down and stop seeing racism in everything. Both the samurai and especially the ninja can be considered stereotypes. The druid is based loosely on a real world religion. The very term barbarian can be taken as offensive to some. The fact there is a class called witch could offend just as many people if not more than the term Gypsy fortune teller.
Considering the OP wants to play this concept because he thinks it is cool is probably a good indication he does not have a negative image of the stereotype.
I apologize for the misnomer. I was just looking for assistance with my character concept not a stereotype discussion.
So it's OK to play Asian-inspired concepts that define their characters as good at math?
Or people of African descent who are strong and athletic?
I mean, so long as you're portraying the stereotype in a positive manner, it's cool, right?
Like I said you are paying way to much attention to stereotypes. Most concepts can be traced back to something from either history or fiction. It seems to me that no matter what concept you have you take the chance of offending someone. So when I write up the NE druid who performs human sacrifices I take the chance at offending people of Irish decent. When I write up the sea reaver barbarian I risks offending those ancestors were Vikings. The inquisitor class is obviously an attack on the Catholic Church. My point is that any concept can be considered offensive if you chose to look at it that way.
Considering that the Varisian ethnicity is obviously based on the Romani maybe you should be a little less judgmental.
OP specifically mentioned being a con artist though. Look, I'm not saying OP is a racist or intentionally offending anybody, but at the end of the day there would never be a thread about how to play a black, asian, or latino stereotype. Yet here we have people actively encouraging this behavior.
Hmm, I missed that part, my bad. I considered the "Gypsy fortune teller" archetype as related to purely fortune telling, which to me is no more offensive than, say, the Armenian or Jewish goldsmith. It is a stereotypical career and there are some negative social factors behind it, but in the end it is a job mostly done by a certain minority. The "Gypsy thief posing as a fortune teller" can definitely be offensive, yeah.
On the other hand, it is a stereotype that exists, just as say the evil stepmother or jealous second child. They are negative archetypes that persist despite there being a lot of perfectly good people in those positions. There are archetypes in D&D that are not particularly good people, and the OP seems to be going for that, at least at first.
The advice that I see so far is purely mechanical - what class functions well for a certain archetype. I apologize if it is seen as disturbing - to me it is the maturity and awareness into the game that can make or break the character. A bland kleptomaniac and a liar will not be a good character. A jaded wanderer looking only for him/herself first and a group of people second, who has a code of morals notably different than most people are used to and thus is seen as dishonorable? That can work well enough I think.
That makes me wonder, though, to what degree is "Gypsy" tied to (Romani) ethnicity in the English language and to what degree does it portray an archetype or lifestyle like "Bohemian"?
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So it's OK to play Asian-inspired concepts that define their characters as good at math?
Or people of African descent who are strong and athletic?
I mean, so long as you're portraying the stereotype in a positive manner, it's cool, right?
Like I said you are paying way to much attention to stereotypes. Most concepts can be traced back to something from either history or fiction. It seems to me that no matter what concept you have you take the chance of offending someone. So when I write up the NE druid who performs human sacrifices I take the chance at offending people of Irish decent. When I write up the sea reaver barbarian I risks offending those ancestors were Vikings. The inquisitor class is obviously an attack on the Catholic Church. My point is that any concept can be considered offensive if you chose to look at it that way.
Considering that the Varisian ethnicity is obviously based on the Romani maybe you should be a little less judgmental.
You didn't answer the question.
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You didn't answer the question.So it's OK to play Asian-inspired concepts that define their characters as good at math?
Or people of African descent who are strong and athletic?
I mean, so long as you're portraying the stereotype in a positive manner, it's cool, right?
Like I said you are paying way to much attention to stereotypes. Most concepts can be traced back to something from either history or fiction. It seems to me that no matter what concept you have you take the chance of offending someone. So when I write up the NE druid who performs human sacrifices I take the chance at offending people of Irish decent. When I write up the sea reaver barbarian I risks offending those ancestors were Vikings. The inquisitor class is obviously an attack on the Catholic Church. My point is that any concept can be considered offensive if you chose to look at it that way.
Considering that the Varisian ethnicity is obviously based on the Romani maybe you should be a little less judgmental.
Well considering that Asia, and Africa does not exist in the campaigns I play in that is going to be difficult to do. Would I play a character from Tian Xia who has a high intelligence? Would I play a character from Mwangi with good physical stats? The answer to both questions is yes. Like I said anything can be considered a stereotype. The knights in shining armor, the savage barbarian, the seductive bard, the pious priest, the holy warrior, the clever rogue are all stereotypes. So according to you I can’t play a cavalier, a barbarian, a bard, a cleric, or a paladin just to name a few.
Almost all characters are going to be based on something that the person has seen or read. I doubt very seriously that any truly new concepts actually exist. Look at most builds that are posted on the boards and you will see that most of them play into stereotypes. I can’t count the number of times that I have seen someone recommend completely dumping one or more stats to max out the key stats. Does anyone complain about that?
The actual definition of a stereotype is. A stereotype is used to categorize a group of people. People don't understand that type of person, so they put them into classifications, thinking that everyone who is that needs to be like that, or anyone who acts like their classifications is one. So actually a gypsy fortune teller is not a stereotype unless you are saying that all gypsy’s are fortune tellers. A gypsy fortune teller would actually be an archetype instead of a stereotype.
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1. You're reading a lot into what I said that isn't there.
2. We're not discussing what other people do elsewhere, we're discussing this one case.
3. Your logic is bad, and I'm not sure if you're just trying to spin it to make your position seem tenable or if you're trying to convince yourself you're right. Saying "a gypsy fortune teller is not a stereotype unless you are saying that all gypsy’s are fortune tellers" is just ridiculous.
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1. You're reading a lot into what I said that isn't there.
2. We're not discussing what other people do elsewhere, we're discussing this one case.
3. Your logic is bad, and I'm not sure if you're just trying to spin it to make your position seem tenable or if you're trying to convince yourself you're right. Saying "a gypsy fortune teller is not a stereotype unless you are saying that all gypsy’s are fortune tellers" is just ridiculous.
Webster’s definition of a stereotype: to believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same.
Your incorrect usage of the word stereotype is common, but still incorrect. To say that LeBron James is an athlete is not a stereotype. Saying that all African Americans are athletes is a stereotype.
Basing a character on a historical archetype is in no way or shape racist. The gypsy fortune teller was an actual occupation that some gypsy’s did in fact perform. This is the same thing as saying a player wanted to play a character based on a Zulu Warrior, or English Archer.
I think a gnome Bard sounds like a lot of fun. You might want to take a look through the various archetypes which are available as they can help customize your PC quite a bit. My favorite is probably the Dirge Bard.
@Mysterious Stranger - I don't disagree with you in a general sense, but you should try to understand that a lot of people feel there's an important difference between portrayals of advantaged vs disadvantaged groups. There was once a lot of prejudice and oppression against Italian-Americans, but now they're part of the mainstream, and potentially negative stereotypes in stuff like Goodfellas and The Sopranos don't tend to bother them so much. Some other groups don’t have as much social progress to take heart from or still suffer from more direct and present danger to their rights. I think that can make people more sensitive to stereotypes and other potentially negative ideas about those groups.
The Cartomancer really does look pretty cool since you get Deadly Dealer and Arcane Strike for free. Getting the Returning property on your harrow cards is also nice though it would be a lot nicer if you could enchant those harrow cards as weapons. I'm not sure about that one way or the other.
Pathfinder Wiki says, "The Harrow is a method of divination widely used by many Varisian fortune-tellers". I'm guessing that they got that information from some Paizo source and that Paizo included material like this to help cover popular tropes from fantasy and horror rather than to offend anybody.