Would you allow a PC to take an Awakened animal as a cohort? If so how would you generate that cohort’s ability scores?
My concept is to get one of Odin's ravens to assist my Viking on his adventures. It would be easy enough to acquire a raven familiar via Eldritch Heritage, and that had been my original plan. A familiar with the same skill ranks as the Viking wouldn't be very good at Knowledge skills though, and those are one of the primary areas our party needs help in.
Why not make a tengu with the raven form feat?
I would, but I would even let a player be an Awakened Animal.
Well, a raven with the +2HD should be about equivalent to a 1st level PC, I would then give it the standard array as a bonus to stats, then finally I'd give it whatever class up to whatever level minus 1.
I'm probably missing something.
I would, but I would even let a player be an Awakened Animal.
Well, a raven with the +2HD should be about equivalent to a 1st level PC, I would then give it the standard array as a bonus to stats, then finally I'd give it whatever class up to whatever level minus 1.
I'm probably missing something.
Well if it came too it I think they should be allowed to retrain those awakened Hit dice as well. I would probably just for go the extra hd and stat one out, or just use tengu with the feat.
Well if it came too it I think they should be allowed to retrain those awakened Hit dice as well. I would probably just for go the extra hd and stat one out, or just use tengu with the feat.I would, but I would even let a player be an Awakened Animal.
Well, a raven with the +2HD should be about equivalent to a 1st level PC, I would then give it the standard array as a bonus to stats, then finally I'd give it whatever class up to whatever level minus 1.
I'm probably missing something.
I don't agree. 1 [random animal/awakened animal] HD is not equivalent to a class level. 2 [random animal/awakened animal] HD is equivalent to 1 class level.
I don't agree. 1 [random animal/awakened animal] HD is not equivalent to a class level. 2 [random animal/awakened animal] HD is equivalent to 1 class level.Well if it came too it I think they should be allowed to retrain those awakened Hit dice as well. I would probably just for go the extra hd and stat one out, or just use tengu with the feat.I would, but I would even let a player be an Awakened Animal.
Well, a raven with the +2HD should be about equivalent to a 1st level PC, I would then give it the standard array as a bonus to stats, then finally I'd give it whatever class up to whatever level minus 1.
I'm probably missing something.
Well strictly in rule terms its like 4 or more animal HD is equal to 1 cr but we aren't in strict rules land. I wasn't meaning that the extra HD be used to over come the others in the party I meant it as a balancing act, for eventually having the raven and all pc have equal number of class hd and zero racial. I honestly don't like racial HD on pcs it mucks things up and makes it harder to balance an already complex system.
Well, a raven with the +2HD should be about equivalent to a 1st level PC, I
Well strictly in rule terms its like 4 or more animal HD is equal to 1 cr but we aren't in strict rules land. I wasn't meaning that the extra HD be used to over come the others in the party I meant it as a balancing act, for eventually having the raven and all pc have equal number of class hd and zero racial. I honestly don't like racial HD on pcs it mucks things up and makes it harder to balance an already complex system.
Generally, I think it's kinda like 2HD = 1stLvlPC = CR½. The raven's low stats makes it's extra 1HD balance out.
Racial HD gets tricky, but I've never experienced it outside 'Sir Bearington'-esque adventures.
Agreed. That's why I shy away from awakened straight up for PCs.
As for the OPs question what I'd do as a gm is build a tengu with a permanent raven form on, that way the cohort wouldn't have racial only levels which don't provide anything. It's already a lower level I wouldn't feel the need to cripple it more.
Yes, absolutely, because I would love to see a player play a Vivisectionist, make an Anthropomorphic Awakened Racoon Gunslinger as his Cohort, and an Awakened Tree Barbarian, then kill off his own Vivisectionist to replace it with the Racoon who then takes Leadership to take the Tree Barbarian as its Cohort.
Hmmm... is the problem how to evaluate the class level of an awakened animal for a cohort?
Why not compare the HD and CR and take the highest to determine the cohort's level? Creatures with many HD might be low CR, but some creatures with low HD might be high CR... so in the end, pick the highest value to determine the cohort's level of an awakened animal.
For instance, an awakened Dire Bear would have 12 HD, but apparently, the CR would remain 7. As a houserule, that would count as a 12th-level cohort, available only with a socre of 17 or higher.
Here's my reasoning: racial HD are like class levels, minus features. The BAB, skills, feats, saves, etc, all increase using HD. That Dire Bear is initially a 10th level character in the "animal" class. Awaken adds 2 more HD in that same class. Hence the idea that it counts as a 12th-level character.
However, some creatures have higher CR than HD due to some other abilities. To compensate, the CR should be taken into account, not the HD count.
In the end, pick the highest value.
Yes, absolutely, because I would love to see a player play a Vivisectionist, make an Anthropomorphic Awakened Racoon Gunslinger as his Cohort, and an Awakened Tree Barbarian, then kill off his own Vivisectionist to replace it with the Racoon who then takes Leadership to take the Tree Barbarian as its Cohort.
You cannot... sadly...
Both Awaken and Anthropomorphic Animal only works on animals, not on magical beasts. Technically speaking, either your raccoon is smart, but remains quadrupedal, or it can walk and wield objects, but is as dumb as a post.
One solution though, take a look at the Pathfinder-updated Advanced Bestiary. There is one template to help you, even alongside the spell to create it, named "Manimal". It's essentially a combination of both spell effets... except that it doesn't give as much intellect as Awaken. It gives Int+8 and Cha+4 in the end, BUT the animal is now bipedal... and smart enough to think as any regular human would normally.
So basically, a Manimal raccoon Gunslinger (Techslinger) is a more viable option. As for Groot, just take a Treant who can alter its size :P
Hmmm... is the problem how to evaluate the class level of an awakened animal for a cohort?
Why not compare the HD and CR and take the highest to determine the cohort's level? Creatures with many HD might be low CR, but some creatures with low HD might be high CR... so in the end, pick the highest value to determine the cohort's level of an awakened animal.
For instance, an awakened Dire Bear would have 12 HD, but apparently, the CR would remain 7. As a houserule, that would count as a 12th-level cohort, available only with a socre of 17 or higher.
Here's my reasoning: racial HD are like class levels, minus features. The BAB, skills, feats, saves, etc, all increase using HD. That Dire Bear is initially a 10th level character in the "animal" class. Awaken adds 2 more HD in that same class. Hence the idea that it counts as a 12th-level character.
However, some creatures have higher CR than HD due to some other abilities. To compensate, the CR should be taken into account, not the HD count.
In the end, pick the highest value.
The issue is that "12th level animal" is way underpowered versus a straight 12th level PC cohort. Then as you gain more levels those animal hit dice get weaker and weaker to the point of it being a liability. Things you chose for a character shouldn't be a liability. I generally like playing high level high power games having HD that provide no other benefit puts them at a big disadvantage in pathfinder. It's true that having the HD is better than not but them being there doesn't mean they are good and they have to count in your cr.
Regarding the tengu, I’m not sure if a Japanese birdman really fits as a cohort for my stereotypical Viking. The raven form is also Large size whereas I am hoping to get a cohort who can be Tiny or smaller to help prevent clogging up the battle map.
There's a list of monsters which can be taken as cohorts and what level they count as for that purpose (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-cohorts). That list seems fairly unforgiving since a Blink Dog counts as 4th level to start and an Azer counts as 5th. I'd considered whether it might make sense to use a Nosoi Psychopomp as a cohort instead of an improved familiar. Looking at the chart I’d think that such a cohort should probably count as 4th or 5th level if it is available at all. Giving up 4-5 class levels for a few nifty powers seems like a bad trade to me, especially when a spellcaster could simply take a Nosoi as an improved familiar (mostly to get spirit sense)
If I were willing to give up that many class levels on the cohort she could also just take 4 Druid levels and the Shaping Focus feat. With Natural Spell and Wild Speech the feat cost would still be kind of staggering though. All of this makes me think that maybe just having an Awakened or otherwise exceptional raven would be simpler and more fun. The DM seems OK with the idea. I don’t think either of us feels quite sure how to best execute it though.
I did a little analysis of a raven's ability scores and concluded that maybe it has -6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis. I figured that using those racial adjustments along with point buy might be "fair". One thing that bothers me is that the Awaken spell by itself would never create a raven with a Charisma of above 10 whereas I was considering Bard as a class for this cohort. It seems possible to me that ravens might exist which have higher (and lower) scores than normal in certain abilities, but the rules seem silent on this matter except to say that monsters with class abilities get to use an elite array for ability scores instead of the standard array.
Regarding the tengu, I’m not sure if a Japanese birdman really fits as a cohort for my stereotypical Viking. The raven form is also Large size whereas I am hoping to get a cohort who can be Tiny or smaller to help prevent clogging up the battle map.
There's a list of monsters which can be taken as cohorts and what level they count as for that purpose (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-cohorts). That list seems fairly unforgiving since a Blink Dog counts as 4th level to start and an Azer counts as 5th. I'd considered whether it might make sense to use a Nosoi Psychopomp as a cohort instead of an improved familiar. Looking at the chart I’d think that such a cohort should probably count as 4th or 5th level if it is available at all. Giving up 4-5 class levels for a few nifty powers seems like a bad trade to me, especially when a spellcaster could simply take a Nosoi as an improved familiar (mostly to get spirit sense)
If I were willing to give up that many class levels on the cohort she could also just take 4 Druid levels and the Shaping Focus feat. With Natural Spell and Wild Speech the feat cost would still be kind of staggering though. All of this makes me think that maybe just having an Awakened or otherwise exceptional raven would be simpler and more fun. The DM seems OK with the idea. I don’t think either of us feels quite sure how to best execute it though.
I did a little analysis of a raven's ability scores and concluded that maybe it has -6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis. I figured that using those racial adjustments along with point buy might be "fair". One thing that bothers me is that the Awaken spell by itself would never create a raven with a Charisma of above 10 whereas I was considering Bard as a class for this cohort. It seems possible to me that ravens might exist which have higher (and lower) scores than normal in certain abilities, but the rules seem silent on this matter except to say that monsters with class abilities get to use an elite array for ability scores...
Now we get into not being able to discount flavor, letting flavor that has no game impact will make this much harder on you. I've never understood this mentality. Give someone something that meets their goals, says no and continues to cram square peg into round hole. Not saying it's everything you wanted but I did provide a good base line to get no thanks that's Asian.
The point was to get you using standard races, in order to justify stats, and provide you with maximum level value. The large raven form could easily be a tiny raven form using the same beast shape II basis. You could even look at kitsune for inspiration but I'm pretty sure you just want to use awaken and there really wasn't a question here so good luck with getting your DM to approve.
Edit: Also you can just do stat adjustments like that in pathfinder it's not like 3.5 in that regard so no those won't necessarily be "fair". Most are built with arrays favoring their strengths.
I don't have anything against Asian stuff. Ravens "go with" Vikings really well. Halfling sized bird people aren't something I'd usually associate with Vikings though. I'd also been hoping for a Tiny sized helper whereas the Tengu Raven Form feat seems to specify Large size.
I'd actually be pretty happy to find a good solution other than Awaken. I just don't think that Tengu Raven Form is one of them. Sure, I could ask the DM to house rule that you can use Tiny instead of Large size. I could also ask him to house rule that the Tiny bird form is the cohort's "normal" shape and instead of turning into a Large bird it can turn into a beautiful human female with black hair. I'd call her the Bird Woman and give her a familiar called the mystical hen. It all might be pretty cool, but I think it falls a lot further from the RAW tree than asking for an awakened animal with point buy. I don't think the rules ever really say how to generate the ability scores for a cohort, so I might be in a grey area here instead of way off in house rules land.
I don't really have anything against house rules either, but cohorts are a very powerful option, so it seems like the more I customize the cohort and make up special rules for it the more chance there is that somebody could become annoyed or think I've pulled a fast one. It looks like multiple PCs in this game will be taking cohorts. The party is Mythic, and apparently it is normal for them to be followed around by a train of NPCs.
Why not build a cohort, and then make him/her functionally under the effect of a baleful polymorph, having failed the first save but passed the second?
Why not build a cohort, and then make him/her functionally under the effect of a baleful polymorph, having failed the first save but passed the second?
In short this was pretty much what I was suggesting except with races that use beast form II instead of III but the "Asianness" was to much to over come with just giving them a different flavor. Both tengu and kitsune have those different forms bases on beast shape II. Though I'll admit this is very good too, baring dispelling.
I would just have your GM make a Odin's Raven race, I don't think a raven is a particularly more powerful base race than human so it shouldn't be OP. You could make it in the race builder if you are worried about it it's not perfect but it gives you a good first approximation. I'd do something like this:
Type Magical Animal (2 RP) (like fey)
Eat, breathe, sleep,
Low-light vision
Size: Tiny (4 RP)
Speed
10 ft (-2 RP)
40 ft Fly (average) (6 RP)
Stats:
from size +2 Dex, -2 Str
Standard: +2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Str (0 RP)
Total +4 Dex, -4 Str, +2 Int
Penalty (No hands) (-2 RP)
Static Bonus Feat (Natural Spell) (2 RP)
Total 10 RP
And consider a Skald, it might not be what you are looking for but it is a viking bard class.
Why not build a cohort, and then make him/her functionally under the effect of a baleful polymorph, having failed the first save but passed the second?In short this was pretty much what I was suggesting except with races that use beast form II instead of III but the "Asianness" was to much to over come with just giving them a different flavor. Both tengu and kitsune have those different forms bases on beast shape II. Though I'll admit this is very good too, baring dispelling.
Ah... I get you now.
One thing I'd point out, which dovetails with your statement ". . . I think they should be allowed to retrain those awakened Hit dice as well. . . . " in 3.5 ". . . Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.
Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four. . . . "
Edit: I'm not finding an easy equivalent in Pathfinder, though. Maybe I didn't look hard enough.
Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. It seems like most people would rather suggest alternatives to using an awakened animal than ways to stat one up. This makes me think that maybe the awakened animal is a tricky proposition.
Maybe the DM will have a great idea on how he'd like to handle it, or maybe I'd be better off looking at a cohort with enough Druid levels to wildshape into a raven. I don't really mind losing 4 levels from whatever her primary class is, but dumping 3 feats into Shaping Focus, Natural Spell, and Wild Speech might be pretty painful. I already had several ideas like that in the works. I was really posting mostly to see what people thought about statting up awakened animals as cohorts and if there's any generally accepted way of doing it. I guess there's likely not.
@Onyxlion - I think you’re reading way too much into my description of the tengu, a creature from Japanese folklore, as a “Japanese birdman”. I actually don’t have any problem with Asian themed stuff, and I like to reskin things to make my character the way I’ve imagined. There are some mechanical problems with what you’ve suggested though since the tengu’s alternate shape is size Large and the kitsune’s is a fox rather than a bird.
At least one of the players in the game has expressed dismay at reskinning in the past. I might be able to sneak changing a fox into a small dog by him, but changing it into a bird would likely annoy somebody. Perhaps more importantly, I don’t think either feat would allow the cohort to speak while in animal shape, and it is important for the raven which whispers Odin’s wisdom into my Viking’s ear to be able to actually do so (plus cast some spells)
@Te'Shen - Baleful Polymorph isn't a bad idea, but once again I'm not sure if it includes any provision for speech or casting.
That's fair. I'd say a storyteller should just allow them to take the natural spell feat for all awakened animal cohort spellcasters and allow it to work. However, since this doesn't work by RAW, I'd say talk with him and see if he'd allow it.
If your game includes psionics, just make the psychic version (I'd say a seer psion), but not everyone does. An awakened animal psion is pretty fun. I say this from the other side of the DM's Screen.
I think speech works fine for awakened animals, just not for folks transformed by polymorph effects. This is one reason why I was looking specifically at awakened animals.
Maybe I was, my goal in these kinds of requests is to try to get the most value for the least apparent level cost. Awakened HD are mostly dead value for abilities and progression so if it can be achieved with out I try for that.