StuffWith 15000 gp there is not much you can do besides upgrading your dex. In order to get more damage you would need multiclass urban barbarian or fighter, this is why multiclassing is highly prized by gunslingers. Almost all gunslingers builds prefer multiclass, except pistoleros since they compensate it with signature up close and deadly. For instance gatling the minuscule dips in fighter and wild urban barbarian to get weapon training, more dex and more attacks.
Someone pointed this out recently. There is even a fighter archetype that works well. IIRC you take on level of gunslinger then switch to the fighter archetype because it gets the dex to damage for guns at level 3 or 4. Then you never touch gunslinger again.
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StuffWith 15000 gp there is not much you can do besides upgrading your dex. In order to get more damage you would need multiclass urban barbarian or fighter, this is why multiclassing is highly prized by gunslingers. Almost all gunslingers builds prefer multiclass, except pistoleros since they compensate it with signature up close and deadly. For instance gatling the minuscule dips in fighter and wild urban barbarian to get weapon training, more dex and more attacks.Someone pointed this out recently. There is even a fighter archetype that works well. IIRC you take on level of gunslinger then switch to the fighter archetype because it gets the dex to damage for guns at level 3 or 4. Then you never touch gunslinger again.
Ah yeah think you mean trench fighter, yes thats usually the most optimal build since they net you much more feats (Funny thing they get dex to damage earlier than gunslingers).Altought not many dms will let you run it because of the fluff (its suppouse for 20th century characters) besides the fact its only on an AP (reign of winter) of course if the dm is cool with that then its a really good option. I had dm who wouldnt let me use it because of the earlier rulings which used to let you get to damage twice by using it but now that this has been errated then i think its much more plausible.
Wraithstrike, in your build the gunslinger has 8 feat instead of 9 (human +2 bonus from class +6 from level 11 ignoring gunsmithing). And 2 of them are rapid reaload witch the Musket Master get for free. So you have 3 extra feats to put in there. Try adding improved critical (+13% DPR), clustered shots (no DR anymore), and improved precise shot.
With the extra 15k gold, change the +3 weapon to a +1 reliable,greater or get a +4 dex belt. In anycase, i'd ditch lucky, not worth imho.
Test the DPR with this improvements.
Wraithstrike, in your build the gunslinger has 8 feat instead of 9 (human +2 bonus from class +6 from level 11 ignoring gunsmithing). And 2 of them are rapid reaload witch the Musket Master get for free. So you have 3 extra feats to put in there. Try adding improved critical (+13% DPR), clustered shots (no DR anymore), and improved precise shot.
With the extra 15k gold, change the +3 weapon to a +1 reliable,greater or get a +4 dex belt. In anycase, i'd ditch lucky, not worth imho.
Test the DPR with this improvements.
I already have the non-DPR numbers in the first calculation,and for the ones I just ran I did not do DPR calculations at all. Assuming clustered shot is used you just subtract the DR of 10 or 15 from the total.
I will go back and add improved critical since I gave it to the archer fighter. I thought I had improved precise shot. I will check it again to see if I forgot to add it.
edit:Those numbers were with improved crit feat. The feat just did not show up in the copy/paste for the build.
I did change out the extra rapid shot for improved precise shot, but I just assumed it was there so that also does not change anything.
Basically the numbers stay the same for the 2nd set, but it does make me realize that I never added the DR + the misfire numbers.
However, like I said just subtract 10 or 15 from whatever DR the archer or gunslinger can not bypass since they would both have the feat.
edit2: I would have to drop improved init from the gunslinger to get improved critical, which I see I forgot to do when I gave it to him.
I can understand people’s arguments that misfires can be a problem at lower levels. I don’t like accepting that the wheels must fall off of game balance at higher levels though, especially since 13th level is one I’d expect to see in every AP. Even if there are a million ways to break the game I think that trying to fix as many as possible seems like a better approach than just letting everything slide.
Anyhow, I feel like there’s a problem with guns and perhaps touch attacks in general, especially at higher levels as touch AC fails to increase on pace with other defenses. I think the Gunslinger class gets “singled out” since:
A - Gunslingers almost always use guns, so the intersection between Gunslingers and gun use is very strong (unlike say Fighters or Paladins even if they might be able to inflict a lot of gun based DPR too)
B - Guns include a lot of drawbacks such as misfires and slow reloading, but Gunslingers can overcome many of those restrictions (especially when using certain archetypes)
@wraithstrike - The OP’s complaints about a PC from actual play (and mine for that matter) involve double barreled guns. They also both involve the Pistolero. I’d expect that using those and a little effort you could boost the DPR significantly.
@ElementalXX - I don’t like to compare stuff which works against all foes to Paladins since Smite Evil only works against Evil foes. DMs can and often will make enemies Neutral, and even APs run straight from the book sometimes have a lot of non-Evil foes. I also happen to think Litany of Righteousness might better be called Litany of Ridiculousness since it seems crazy powerful to me. Obviously I'm more impressed by DPR than some folks, but flat out doubling damage seems nuts.
@wraithstrike - The OP’s complaints about a PC from actual play (and mine for that matter) involve double barreled guns. They also both involve the Pistolero. I’d expect that using those and a little effort you could boost the DPR significantly.
I understand that, but the OP and others tried to say the gunslinger as a whole was the problem, and my point was that certain builds, not the entire class was the problem. If you take double barreled weapons, give them touch AC, and hand them to another class that class will also do comparable damage. So to me it seems like the problem is double barreled guns, and touch AC, along with dex to damage of course.
That is why I made a gunslinger that was not dual-wielding(with no free action reloading shenanigans), and did not use a double barreled weapon.
Since I had never made a gunslinger before I figured I was a good candidate to make a "not to optimized, but decent" gunslinger.
I was given some tips, on how to increase the damage, and I added those in to be fair, and so nobody would think I was low-balling the build.
I don't have a lot of experience with other classes using guns, so I can't say for sure that they wouldn't be as over the top as the Pistolero. Heck, some might be even worse. The Gunslinger and especially certain archetypes get a lot of abilities to overcome the built in limitations of firearms though. Up Close and Deadly can also be a big damage multiplier, and with a high enough number of attacks it can inflict significant damage even if you miss.
I tend to agree that touch AC is the root problem and double barreled guns greatly amplify it, especially since the balancing mechanism of attack penalties isn't very effective against attacks with a very high chance to hit. The increased misfire chance is probably a bigger deal, but there are obviously some ways to get around it. The ability to use Deadly Aim with touch attacks is another cheap damage boost. In the oddball fight where enemy touch AC is high enough to make these penalties matter the gun wielder can simply back off a little and still do very good damage.
DMs often react to "high powered" PCs by boosting the challenge. Sometimes that just means slapping on the Advanced template, which increases AC twice as much as it boosts touch AC. Other times it means using higher CR monsters altogether. That tends to scale up SR and saving throw bonuses along with AC while touch AC languishes, further exacerbating the perceived superiority of the touch attack PC. Players also might find it frustrating if the DM sends in touch attack based enemies since many classes find defending against them very tough.
I don't have a lot of experience with other classes using guns, so I can't say for sure that they wouldn't be as over the top as the Pistolero. Heck, some might be even worse. The Gunslinger and especially certain archetypes get a lot of abilities to overcome the built in limitations of firearms though. Up Close and Deadly can also be a big damage multiplier, and with a high enough number of attacks it can inflict significant damage even if you miss.
I tend to agree that touch AC is the root problem and double barreled guns greatly amplify it, especially since the balancing mechanism of attack penalties isn't very effective against attacks with a very high chance to hit. The increased misfire chance is probably a bigger deal, but there are obviously some ways to get around it. The ability to use Deadly Aim with touch attacks is another cheap damage boost. In the oddball fight where enemy touch AC is high enough to make these penalties matter the gun wielder can simply back off a little and still do very good damage.
DMs often react to "high powered" PCs by boosting the challenge. Sometimes that just means slapping on the Advanced template, which increases AC twice as much as it boosts touch AC. Other times it means using higher CR monsters altogether. That tends to scale up SR and saving throw bonuses along with AC while touch AC languishes, further exacerbating the perceived superiority of the touch attack PC. Players also might find it frustrating if the DM sends in touch attack based enemies since many classes find defending against them very tough.
There is a fighter archetype that gets dex to damage earlier than the gunslinger does. I just found out about it recently. You take one level of gunslinger and then never touch it again. Personally I also think that the pisterolo, and the musket master are the best archetypes for a gunslinger.
The ability to target touch AC is a property of guns. The ability to get dex to damage is a class ability. The ability to double your attacks is a property of specific guns. That is why I said that once you are able to give dex to damage to another class it does not matter if it is a gunslinger or not. After that you just use magic to reduce the impact of misfiring.
As I've written before, I'm not so sure that using double firearms with the damage bonus to both attacks is the intent of the rules, or that the rules are being interpreted correctly. The rules really are not clear, and if a GM feels that using double firearms that way is causing problems there are ways of reading the rules which cut the damage output of double firearms (only one double attack per attack or full attack action or something like the 3.5 volley rule).As I've written before, I'm not so sure that using double firearms with the damage bonus to both attacks is the intent of the rules, or that the rules are being interpreted correctly. The rules really are not clear, and if a GM feels that using double firearms that way is causing problems there are ways of reading the rules which cut the damage output of double firearms (only one double attack per attack or full attack action or something like the 3.5 volley rule).
I don't think it is RAI either, but it reads that way per RAW. I don't know if there is an FAQ on it, but if not then there needs to be because even if the PDT sees us doing it wrong they will not step in without an FAQ.
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@ElementalXX - I don’t like to compare stuff which works against all foes to Paladins since Smite Evil only works against Evil foes. DMs can and often will make enemies Neutral, and even APs run straight from the book sometimes have a lot of non-Evil foes. I also happen to think Litany of Righteousness might better be called Litany of Ridiculousness since it seems crazy powerful to me. Obviously I'm more impressed by DPR than some folks, but flat out doubling damage seems nuts.
What the dm can customize or not is not really measurable, theoretically a dm can and also will bring ghosts or swarms. The situations should be adressed in case by case basis.
I mentioned paladin because he is the dpr winner when smiting, that seems fair since as you mentioned you dont get to use it at all times but its useful as a measure of how much is too much. Had the gunslinger broken or have gotten on the paladin the mark certaintly I would consider it broken in damage.
And yeah littany off rightiousness is kind of silly, again since its magic all seem fine with that
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The Gunslinger and especially certain archetypes get a lot of abilities to overcome the built in limitations of firearms though.
Actually only the pistolero and the musket master get to ignore misfires, the vanilla pistolero can never ignore misfires unless until magic come in play.
I tend to agree that touch AC is the root problem and double barreled guns greatly amplify it, especially since the balancing mechanism of attack penalties isn't very effective against attacks with a very high chance to hit. The increased misfire chance is probably a bigger deal, but there are obviously some ways to get around it. The ability to use Deadly Aim with touch attacks is another cheap damage boost. In the oddball fight where enemy touch AC is high enough to make these penalties matter the gun wielder can simply back off a little and still do very good damage.
I dont think touch ac is a problem, targetting touch is basically a DPR booster. And as per the numbers its not worth as much in damage as some other features other classes have. Double weapons i agree could be a problem but the only one i could consider overpowered is the double musket(because it boosts dpr by 50%), the double pistol is fine in my opinion, a -4 for an extra attack is not that much different from rapid shot and it emulates Manyshot
DMs often react to "high powered" PCs by boosting the challenge.
Thats kind of a poor choice, its much esier and much profitable to outsmart them. Something as easy as making the fight underwater on during fog gives the gunslinger a really tought situation , however countering the pcs always is not a good way to go either
wraithstrike: Well, I was just making sure that you weren't using some personal arbitrary means of determining whether something is OP or not like simple personal experience. Actually, it kind of sounds like you are from what you described. Unless that is the general opinion of the board? I'm not certain I understand what you were trying to say correctly or not. Is the measuring stick you are using whether something is "too much DPR" whether it can take something out that is average APL=CR in a single turn?
ElementalXX: He gained the Roc via Sylvan Bloodline, Boon Companion and a Robe of Arcane Heritage. I'm not sure why you are so concerned with my home game. Yes, it is the same guy that is ok with a Guided bow despite my council against it.
I also did not say that APs are endless dungeon crawls. You had asked the question,
Yeah... how many combats have you had at 600 ft?. Actually how many APs encounters exist which cover 600fT ? Im guesssing your dungeons must be very big or you must have a really really big combat mat.
I answered that we do not play APs. I also stated that not everyone plays endless dungeon crawls. I did not state that all APs are dungeon crawls. I simply answered your question.
Honestly, EelemntalXX, I'm not sure why you are showing so much interest in my home game. It seems like you are just asking questions so that you can dismiss what I say as somehow badwrongfun. I can't say that I share the same amount of interest in your opinion as you do in mine. I mean, it is a good thing that I don't live my life by your standards or I might care what you think. If you would like I can tell my DM that you disapprove of his method but I doubt it will get more than a chuckle. I think it might make a good piece of comedy for the table though so I don't mind trying it.
I also forgot that the goblin's small size would effect the base damage of the pistol, so that would even further reduce the damage cause by the attack sequences (again if they actually hit with everything, which isn't likely).
*Facepalm* Don't tell me the little bugger has the Goblin Gunslinger Feat..... If he does, he can use fire arms of one size category larger with no penalties. NONE!
So to me it seems like the problem is double barreled guns, and touch AC, along with dex to damage of course.
Its funny because I think that is almost exactly what Judokai was saying when his opinion was attacked. For the record, I agree that those things combined is what makes the problem and have from the start. The fact that those things come largely from Gunslingers is no coincidence. I hope Judokai is still around so that he can see that his opinion is vindicated; backed by numbers.
Devilkiller hit the nail on the head with attacking touch attacks with Deadly Aim. Its cheating that is allowed within the rules IMO. It actually just compounds the existing problem.
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ElementalXX: He gained the Roc via Sylvan Bloodline, Boon Companion and a Robe of Arcane Heritage. I'm not sure why you are so concerned with my home game. Yes, it is the same guy that is ok with a Guided bow despite my council against it.
Ok that clears it up a bit. Im concerned if there is a case of an unblanced game or rules bending because since you rely heavily on your home game as an argument for un/balance its important to see if rules are beign preperly followed, like in the case of guided.
I answered that we do not play APs. I also stated that not everyone plays endless dungeon crawls. I did not state that all APs are dungeon crawls. I simply answered your question.
Ah ok I excuse myself then, the way you pharased made it sound like you were refering to Aps. The point in question is how many Encounters were held at 600ft, how often this happens, i have not seen this happen in any AP, except for something unexpected the the pcs tried or due to shenanigans. And it was not at 600 ft, farthest ive seen is 200ft
It seems like you are just asking questions so that you can dismiss what I say as somehow badwrongfun.
Are you mad about me asking questions?
I can't say that I share the same amount of interest in your opinion as you do in mine. I mean, it is a good thing that I don't live my life by your standards or I might care what you think.
Erm, ok
If you would like I can tell my DM that you disapprove of his method but I doubt it will get more than a chuckle. I think it might make a good piece of comedy for the table though so I don't mind trying it.
This seems terrifying , I wouldnt be able to sleep anymore
Its funny because I think that is almost exactly what Judokai was saying when his opinion was attacked.
Beign refuted by numbers is not beign attacked.
I hope Judokai is still around so that he can see that his opinion is vindicated; backed by numbers.
Last time I saw he he made a big wall of text full of rage directed towards me, since it was quite long I was gonna take my time to answer him but since he erased his comment and disappeared afterwards I didnt bothered with it anymore. He doesnt seem much of a numbers guy anyway.
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I also forgot that the goblin's small size would effect the base damage of the pistol, so that would even further reduce the damage cause by the attack sequences (again if they actually hit with everything, which isn't likely).*Facepalm* Don't tell me the little bugger has the Goblin Gunslinger Feat..... If he does, he can use fire arms of one size category larger with no penalties. NONE!
Increasing size is worth 1 point of damage, i dont really think its a very good feat altought it could be good if you cant usually find small firearms easily on your game.
Is the measuring stick you are using whether something is "too much DPR" whether it can take something out that is average APL=CR in a single turn?
I don't really have one(too much DPR) standard that I apply to the game in general(for most anyone who plays Pathfinder). I listed two max criteria depending on what type of game I am running, and I made a guess at whose those who agree with you might say because even though I asked none of you ever gave me a standard. I also said I will not allow something that I think is I dont think I could use fairly against the PC's. I had not even made a gunslinger until this thread and I still don't care for them. I have no bias. With that said if none of you will give a standard, even if it is not a specific number this thread is really pointless.
PS: Taking down one APL=CR opponent is fine in my games. Is it ok in your games?
So to me it seems like the problem is double barreled guns, and touch AC, along with dex to damage of course.Its funny because I think that is almost exactly what Judokai was saying when his opinion was attacked. For the record, I agree that those things combined is what makes the problem and have from the start. The fact that those things come largely from Gunslingers is no coincidence. I hope Judokai is still around so that he can see that his opinion is vindicated; backed by numbers.
Devilkiller hit the nail on the head with attacking touch attacks with Deadly Aim. Its cheating that is allowed within the rules IMO. It actually just compounds the existing problem.
Jodakai said the gunslinger was the problem, and I said it wasn't. He never said "it is the double guns are the problem, but the gunslinger class was ok". If he did then I missed it.
BEING! lol
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Jodakai said the gunslinger was the problem, and I said it wasn't.
No...
I mean we all know how powerful archers are, imagine an archer that gets DEX to damage and gets to use touch AC.An archer that gets DEX to damage and goes against touch AC is stupid powerful.
An ARCHER with touch arrows and DEX to damage? Really? You don't see how game breaking that is?
Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.
I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.
Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
Yeah... I'm pretty sure that Judokai hit the nail on the head there, wraithstrike. You proved it with numbers, but he was saying that the problem seemed to be touch AC with Dex to damage. You can add the double barreled guns but I doubt they would even be an issue if the other two weren't.
For the record...
What it boils down to is that Gunslingers get to add Dex to damage on touch attack at range.Gunslingers come out of the box with Dex to damage. They also only need to hit touch ACs.
Its ok, though. You don't have to argue with it. We are saying that we AGREE with you.
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After a little bit of search Cheapy was kind of enough to provide his calculations of base fighter and optimized fighter, this may be used to compare it to the gunslinger DPR. It worth noting it uses 15 point buy so numbers may be some points higher at point 20.
Gunslinger DPR at level 11
Touch AC 9 57.43 <---not impressive.
Touch AC 9 with rapid shot 76.57<----A lot better
Touch AC 9 with rapid shot and deadly aim 102.2 <---Good numbers, but not broken at level 11 128.57(hasted)
vs DR 5 with rapid shot and deadly aim 78.29
vs DR 10 with rapid shot and deadly aim 54.57
vs DR 15 not many CR 11 monsters have this, but it might be in a boss fight 30.84
edit: I forgot the elemental damage change I made takes it to 114.79
After the misfire it drops to 89.3786985. A drop of about 25 DPR.
Level: 1 CR: 1 DPR: 8.97
Level: 2 CR: 2 DPR: 8.28
Level: 3 CR: 3 DPR: 9.7175
Level: 4 CR: 4 DPR: 15.6975
Level: 5 CR: 5 DPR: 17.71
Level: 6 CR: 6 DPR: 33.0625
Level: 7 CR: 7 DPR: 34.615
Level: 8 CR: 8 DPR: 44.145
Level: 9 CR: 9 DPR: 52.95
Level: 10 CR: 10 DPR: 52.95
Level: 11 CR: 11 DPR: 115.475
Level: 12 CR: 12 DPR: 128.205
Level: 13 CR: 13 DPR: 141.55
Level: 14 CR: 14 DPR: 172.405
Level: 15 CR: 15 DPR: 172.405
Level: 16 CR: 16 DPR: 207
Level: 17 CR: 17 DPR: 221.95
Level: 18 CR: 18 DPR: 221.95
Level: 19 CR: 19 DPR: 253.085
Level: 20 CR: 20 DPR: 356.2
Level: 20 CR: 21 DPR: 348.4
Level: 20 CR: 22 DPR: 332.8
Level: 20 CR: 23 DPR: 325
Level: 1 CR: 1 DPR: 6.7925
Level: 2 CR: 2 DPR: 6.27
Level: 3 CR: 3 DPR: 7.5075
Level: 4 CR: 4 DPR: 10.23
Level: 5 CR: 5 DPR: 13.475
Level: 6 CR: 6 DPR: 22.1375
Level: 7 CR: 7 DPR: 25.4375
Level: 8 CR: 8 DPR: 28.1875
Level: 9 CR: 9 DPR: 33.4125
Level: 10 CR: 10 DPR: 36.45
Level: 11 CR: 11 DPR: 80.37
Level: 12 CR: 12 DPR: 90.63
Level: 13 CR: 13 DPR: 96.17
Level: 14 CR: 14 DPR: 96.17
Level: 15 CR: 15 DPR: 106.75
Level: 16 CR: 16 DPR: 124.285
Level: 17 CR: 17 DPR: 134.55
Level: 18 CR: 18 DPR: 134.55
Level: 19 CR: 19 DPR: 134.55
Level: 20 CR: 20 DPR: 196.875
Level: 20 CR: 21 DPR: 183.75
Level: 20 CR: 22 DPR: 157.5
Level: 20 CR: 23 DPR: 150
Results:
1. Misfires considered:
-Vanilla Gunslinger has 9 more DPR than vanilla Fighter
-Optimized Fighter beats vanilla gunslinger by 26 points
2. Misfires not considered:
-Vanilla gunslinger beats vanilla Fighter by 30 .
-Vanilla gunslinger loses to optimized Fighter by 1 point .
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All points considered this vanilla gunsglinger is actually a musket master and is somehow optimized but its not using a double musket. The double musket may be broken and probably may put the gunslinger on par with AM barbarian build but thats still uncertain. Further research will be needed to check on the real impact of double firearms.
Would you allow an archer to do Manyshot on every single shot in the round?
This is why I dislike the current double barrel mechanics.
If I’m not mistaken, the OP’s complaint was about a Pistolero using double-barreled pistols. It seems like at least some of us agree that there could be issues with double-barreled guns and or the Pistolero archetype. The player in the OP’s game was probably ignoring a few key rules (like weapon cords being a Move action) and making a few mistakes, but there are rules legal ways around those limitations, and using them can create a touch attack DPR machine that a lot of folks are uncomfortable with.
It could be tough to come up with a standard for how much DPR is too much though I’ve sometimes thought about whether it might be helpful to have a house ruled “damage cap” around 10*Level per round to prevent blow outs and encourage people to focus on things other than DPR. I doubt most groups would be able to embrace something like that as a house rule without player angst when it "ruined" a big round for a PC. I just thought of it as kind of a “failsafe” mechanism to limit power. Obviously SoL spells would need to be policed by some other method.
@ElementalXX - Since Pistoleros, Musket Masters, and anybody with enough gold can ignore misfires it seems like a pretty safe bet that the folks who tweak their PCs to the point where they create in game “problems” will often be ignoring or suppressing the misfire chance.
Would allow bows to explode?Would you allow an archer to do Manyshot on every single shot in the round?
This is why I dislike the current double barrel mechanics.
I dislike the "blow up" aspect of guns completely. Advanced guns don't do it at all (off memory), and there's ways to negate that happening, or even negate misfires completely for some builds.
However, a misfire mechanic for bows? Like giving the bow a "fragile" condition, where the bowstring can snap and require being restrung as a standard action?
I've seriously considered it.
But non-spellcasting doesn't need nerfing.
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Devilkiller: Calculations show that even without misfire gunslingers are below fighter in damage, in any case my official position is to adjudicate the problems atributed to the gunslinger to db firearms.This may change when I get my hands on DB firearms math. Maybe the problem is just the specific combination of db firearms and misfire ignoring, idk yet. Considering this would be the most optimizied build it would be fair to compare it to top builds such as am barb build.
But non-spellcasting doesn't need nerfing.
At least we agree on this
Here’s some double barreled pistol math. I don’t play Gunslingers, so I might have missed something (or even several things). I think this should be reasonably close overall though. The order of the feats could probably be more optimal. I was mostly just trying to make sure they'd all fit...
Pistolero 15
Human - (bonus) Point Blank Shot
1 - Rapid Reload
3 - Weapon Focus (Double Barreled Pistol)
4 - (bonus) Rapid Shot
5 - Gunslinger
7 - Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly)
8 - (bonus) Improved Crit (Double Barreled Pistol)
9 - Precise Shot
11 - Clustered Shots
12 - (bonus) Deadly Aim
13 - Signature Deed (Twin Shot Knockdown)
15 - Iron Will
This PC uses a +4 distance double barreled pistol. I’ll assume that most shots are taken from a reasonably safe range of about 30 feet away on targets with an “average” touch AC of 12 (which is actually kind of high compared to Bestiary monsters). Actually make the range 35’ since I already did the math and forgot Point Blank Shot. Note that with the Gunslinger feat the PC could get right up in people’s faces and shoot without drawing AoOs though.
Attacks: BAB+15 WeaponFocus+1 Dex+8 Gun+4 Rapid Shot-2 Deadly Aim-4 DoubleShot-4 Haste+1 = +19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9
Damage would be 1d8+22+4d6 for around 40.5 per hit on average (Dex+8 Pistol Training+2 Deadly Aim+8 Gun+4). Those +9 attacks are 90% likely to hit, so I guess that’s 9.4 hits on average (0.95*8=7.6 and 0.9*2=1.8) for around 380 DPR. With a 10% chance to threaten and 10 attack rolls you’re also over 90% likely to confirm a crit, boosting DPR to around 451. If you decide that Up Close and Deadly would only work on one bullet from each double shot I guess you’d lose 7 average damage per shot (half of 4d6) and end up at around 385 DPR.
If you love the idea of rolling as many dice as possible I suppose you could also buy lots of spare guns (half a dozen at least) to Quick Draw with your off hand for TWF. You'd probably end up suffering AoOs and might have trouble shooting into melee, but with 16 attacks (18 next level) you'd certainly make an impression when you full attacked. I'd guess that you also might boost your DPR by 30-50%, but it would really start to depend on the situation (are you firing into melee? is the foe's touch AC a few points higher or lower than "normal", etc)
Anyhow, while I'd expect the reactions to DPR 400+ to range from "you must have made some errors" to "no amount of weapon based DPR could be overpowered when there are still full casters" I think that the double barreled guns are at the very least unbalanced compared to other guns. I suppose that maybe the 5% increase in misfire chance is supposed to balance it out, but there are several ways to avoid or suppress misfires. You could also just go "Blackbeard Style" and use Quick Draw to pull out another gun until you can fix the main one with Quick Clear. It isn't like you need super enchanted weapons to hit touch AC, and with Clustered Shots DR isn't a big concern.
Limiting the double shot to a standard action would tone things down significantly and make other guns a more interesting option. It would also prevent early muzzle loading pistols from being mechanically superior to modern revolvers (a result which seems very silly to me)
I understand that, but the OP and others tried to say the gunslinger as a whole was the problem, and my point was that certain builds, not the entire class was the problem. If you take double barreled weapons, give them touch AC, and hand them to another class that class will also do comparable damage. So to me it seems like the problem is double barreled guns, and touch AC, along with dex to damage of course.
That is an excellent point. I mean that bolded point is so good, it probably should have been the basis of my argument from the very beginning... Oh wait...
...For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.
'm pretty much done here, you guys don't want to see it cool. It works in your games, great, but you're the minority. Look around at all the threads complaining about Archers. Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
Your Barbarian's damage depends on full attacks and 3 AoO per round. Do you know how often that actually happens? Very rarely, if ever. I have a friend who plays a Ranger Archer in PFS. She's 9th level so that means 24 pre made scenarios assuming no modules. In those 24 scenarios she has NEVER been hit by an attack. No monsters have ever targeted her. She's an archer she stands in the back and makes full attacks every round. When I play with her I usually use my Invulnerable Rager Barbarian. She out DPR's me by MILES because she can full attack every round, where I rarely get to. She actually doesn't use all of her attacks sometimes so other people can join the fight. I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.
Touch AC is stupidly broken.
It really doesn't matter which class you try to out do a gunslinger with, unless it uses touch AC's it's not going to be as consistently high.
I'm really amazed that people can't see the huge problem gunslingers cause. If you don't know by now how powerful archers are it's because you're not playing the game. An archer that gets DEX to damage and goes against touch AC is stupid powerful. Losing iteratives every once in a while due to a misfire is hardly a balancing factor.
Short Answer: Yes it absolutely is, and To make it worse, the higher level you go, the worse it will be.
Long Answer: I just looked at all the CR 10-11 monsters on D20PFSRD, with VERY FEW exceptions the touch AC's are 10 points lower than the regular AC's (as CR's increase, the disparity becomes even more severe, with very few monsters with a touch AC over 10) So if we assume both your Barbarian and your gunslinger have the same to hit bonus (the gunslinger probably has a better to hit since he doesn't need STR, or CON just DEX and the Barbarian needs CON, STR, a bit of DEX), the gunslinger's 3rd shot has the same to hit chance as the barbarian's 1st. If we assume they both get the same rolls, the barbarian will hit once, the gunslinger will hit 3 times. Gunslingers get automatic DEX damage to their attacks, making them even better than archers, and at 13th level they don't ever misfire.
He may be, but he really doesn't need to, they really are that broken. I mean we all know how powerful archers are, imagine an archer that gets DEX to damage and gets to use touch AC. Sounds crazy right? Welcome to the Gunslinger.
Here’s some double barreled pistol math. I don’t play Gunslingers, so I might have missed something (or even several things). I think this should be reasonably close overall though. The order of the feats could probably be more optimal. I was mostly just trying to make sure they'd all fit...
Save some money, or just increase your range to 80' with the Deadshot Vest. Doesn't use any critical magic item slot, is only 6k so you'll get it at lower levels.
Devkiller: I was going to say the misfire chance is more like 15%(assuming alchemical bullet things), but it turns out at 13, pistoleros can never misfire with one handed guns. However, since you got signature deed for twin shot knock down, you can not use the pistolero bonus damage on every shot as you would run out of grit in one or 2 rounds(killing guys would only get you one grit back, which helps but isn't enough).
I understand that, but the OP and others tried to say the gunslinger as a whole was the problem, and my point was that certain builds, not the entire class was the problem. If you take double barreled weapons, give them touch AC, and hand them to another class that class will also do comparable damage. So to me it seems like the problem is double barreled guns, and touch AC, along with dex to damage of course.
That is an excellent point. I mean that bolded point is so good, it probably should have been the basis of my argument from the very beginning... Oh wait...
...For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.'m pretty much done here, you guys don't want to see it cool. It works in your games, great, but you're the minority. Look around at all the threads complaining about Archers. Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.Your Barbarian's damage depends on full attacks and 3 AoO per round. Do you know how often that actually happens? Very rarely, if ever. I have a friend who plays a Ranger Archer in PFS. She's 9th level so that means 24 pre made scenarios assuming no modules. In those 24 scenarios she has NEVER been hit by an attack. No monsters have ever targeted her. She's an archer she stands in the back and makes full attacks every round. When I play with her I usually use my Invulnerable Rager Barbarian. She out DPR's me by MILES because she can full attack every round, where I rarely get to. She actually doesn't use all of her attacks sometimes so other people can join the fight. I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.Touch AC is stupidly broken.It really doesn't matter which class you try to out do a gunslinger with, unless it uses touch AC's it's not going to be...
It is too late now. I specifically called out "gunslingers" and instead of saying "not gunslingers but....", you thought it more prudent to defend your case. It seems to me like you are selectively choosing certain statements to make it sound like you were singing a different tune.
edit: and I was saying the problem is touch AC and dex to damage plus double barreled weapons, not just touch AC. The main thing is the double barreled weapons since you are basically doubling the DPR. And the math has been run so if you are only focused on "dex to damage and touch AC" you have a different standard than the rest of us, and that was agreed on in another thread where average DPR per level was basically agreed upon.
It seems to me like you are selectively choosing certain statements to make it sound like you were singing a different tune.
Yes I'm sure it does seem like that. That's what happens when people selectively read what's written instead of all of it. When it's laid out you're like "Where did that come from" when it's really been there the whole time.
It seems to me like you are selectively choosing certain statements to make it sound like you were singing a different tune.Yes I'm sure it does seem like that. That's what happens when people selectively read what's written instead of all of it. When it's laid out you're like "Where did that come from" when it's really been there the whole time.
ok, let's make this simple then since I was not the only one to not understand your intent.
1. Were you speaking of the class as whole or just the pisterolo?
2. What is the main problem:
A. touch AC
B. dex to damage
C. double barreled guns
D. Some combination of A, B, and C. Specify the combination that is the problem.
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Here’s some double barreled pistol math. I don’t play Gunslingers, so I might have missed something (or even several things). I think this should be reasonably close overall though. The order of the feats could probably be more optimal. I was mostly just trying to make sure they'd all fit...Save some money, or just increase your range to 80' with the Deadshot Vest. Doesn't use any critical magic item slot, is only 6k so you'll get it at lower levels.
I doesnt really "increase range" unless you also get signature on deadeye
A gunslinger with the deadeye deed reduces the grit point cost to use that deed by 1 (minimum 1 grit).
Elemental-
That makes me feel better I did miss that 1 grit minimum.
Wraith-
1. The class as a whole. Pistolaro only becomes significantly more broken when you add Signature Deed
2. As I've said from the beginning: DEX to damage plus Touch AC's is the problem.
If you made crossbows work against Touch AC's (without the Bolt Ace Archetype) you wouldn't have much of a problem. It's pretty difficult to get a crossbow to do much damage, so it wouldn't be a problem.
My other point is that comparing the damage to a melee type with a formula doesn't work. If you have a barbarian that does 6 billion points of damage per round, but can only hit 1 monster with 50 hit points, he's essentially only doing 51 points of damage. making the other 5,000,000,049 points of damage he could have done irrelevant. A gunslinger that can do 300 points of damage will be MUCH more effective because he can kill 5 of those monsters doing his full 300 points of damage. The formula can't take into consideration that the ranged attacker will get their full attacks MUCH more than a melee attacker, and the formula assumes that all the damage will be relevant when in reality it won't be very often, or at least not nearly as often as a Gunslinger's.
I also have a problem with the Targeting Deed, which is basic Gunslinger. Being able to knock prone almost any biped on a roll of 2 or higher is stupid. Being able to disarm almost anyone on a roll of 2 or higher is stupid. Luckily Gunslingers do so much damage, people don't use this very often because it's just easier to kill the monster.
Finally my point is this: If you kept Gunslingers exactly as they are, but made them use regular AC, I would be fine with it. DEX to damage for a misfire chance at lower levels.
Elemental-
That makes me feel better I did miss that 1 grit minimum.Wraith-
1. The class as a whole. Pistolaro only becomes significantly more broken when you add Signature Deed
2. As I've said from the beginning: DEX to damage plus Touch AC's is the problem.
If you made crossbows work against Touch AC's (without the Bolt Ace Archetype) you wouldn't have much of a problem. It's pretty difficult to get a crossbow to do much damage, so it wouldn't be a problem.
My other point is that comparing the damage to a melee type with a formula doesn't work. If you have a barbarian that does 6 billion points of damage per round, but can only hit 1 monster with 50 hit points, he's essentially only doing 51 points of damage. making the other 5,000,000,049 points of damage he could have done irrelevant. A gunslinger that can do 300 points of damage will be MUCH more effective because he can kill 5 of those monsters doing his full 300 points of damage. The formula can't take into consideration that the ranged attacker will get their full attacks MUCH more than a melee attacker, and the formula assumes that all the damage will be relevant when in reality it won't be very often, or at least not nearly as often as a Gunslinger's.
I also have a problem with the Targeting Deed, which is basic Gunslinger. Being able to knock prone almost any biped on a roll of 2 or higher is stupid. Being able to disarm almost anyone on a roll of 2 or higher is stupid. Luckily Gunslingers do so much damage, people don't use this very often because it's just easier to kill the monster.
Finally my point is this: If you kept Gunslingers exactly as they are, but made them use regular AC, I would be fine with it. DEX to damage for a misfire chance at lower levels.
Sooo the math that shows you can do more DPR with an archer (zen archer, ranger with instant enemy) over a gunslinger w/o double barreled?
Are you just ignoring that?
Like, I get why peeps are upset at double-barreled -- the rules are badly written and they are pretty cheesy if you go with the most favourable interpretation. Without those rules, gunslingers don't even scrape the top 10 highest DPR builds. Your complaint is with high DPR...... so, what is the complaint exactly?
Sooo the math that shows you can do more DPR with an archer (zen archer, ranger with instant enemy) over a gunslinger w/o double barreled?
Are you just ignoring that?
Like, I get why peeps are upset at double-barreled -- the rules...
There is absolutely no way a Zen Archer can do more damage. If any math says it can, it's wrong or they're using ambiguous rules. Simple logic tells you a Zen Archer can't out DPR a Gunslinger
Zen Archer: 1/3 BAB-ish, doesn't get DEX to damage (or WIS without using a weapon enhancement that no longer exists and wasn't meant for bows) and uses regular AC that at CR 11 averages 10 points higher than regular AC.A Ranger can only do that damage to certain types of creatures and it's not consistent. Sure they can use Instant Enemy, but that has to be cast on EACH TARGET. So while the Ranger is wasting time casting spells the Gunslinger is destroying every target on the field.
Without the rules stretching of a weapon enhancement that was A) Taken out of Pathfinder (since it isn't in the PRD) and B) Was never meant for Ranged Weapons, the Zen Archer is out of the running, and in actual combat, the Ranger will only win when fighting the exact monsters he has as his most beneficial favored enemy, which won't happen very often.
Without those two, who is in the top 10 RANGED DPR?
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2. As I've said from the beginning: DEX to damage plus Touch AC's is the problem.
This is not true. Non db gunslingers dont even beat fighters even if they somehow completely ignore misfires. The numbers have already been run. If anything the problem is something else.
I also have a problem with the Targeting Deed, which is basic Gunslinger. Being able to knock prone almost any biped on a roll of 2 or higher is stupid. Being able to disarm almost anyone on a roll of 2
I hope you are not coming back to that ultility argument.
There is absolutely no way a Zen Archer can do more damage. If any math says it can, it's wrong or they're using ambiguous rules. Simple logic tells you a Zen Archer can't out DPR a Gunslinger
What are you talking about? zen archer may probably do more damage than non double barreled gunslinger considering how he loses to fighter. Also the way you are phrasing this is basically asking for a special pleading
Zen Archer: 1/3 BAB-ish, doesn't get DEX to damage (or WIS without using a weapon enhancement that no longer exists and wasn't meant for bows) and uses regular AC that at CR 11 averages 10 points higher than regular AC.
It however gets more attacks and feats, plus manyshot
A Ranger can only do that damage to certain types of creatures and it's not consistent. Sure they can use Instant Enemy, but that has to be cast on EACH TARGET. So while the Ranger is wasting time casting spells the Gunslinger is destroying every target on the field.
Instant enemy is a swift action, and seriously favored enemy is hardly the ranger's best class feature
Without those two, who is in the top 10 RANGED DPR?
On the top of my mind? Summoner, Archer Paladin, Archer Fighter
Wraith-
1. The class as a whole. Pistolaro only becomes significantly more broken when you add Signature Deed
Thanks. Another poster thought you were only focused on the build you posted. I just wanted to clear that up.
2. As I've said from the beginning: DEX to damage plus Touch AC's is the problem.
If you made crossbows work against Touch AC's (without the Bolt Ace Archetype) you wouldn't have much of a problem. It's pretty difficult to get a crossbow to do much damage, so it wouldn't be a problem.
I will take a fighter and try doing this.
My other point is that comparing the damage to a melee type with a formula doesn't work. If you have a barbarian that does 6 billion points of damage per round, but can only hit 1 monster with 50 hit points, he's essentially only doing 51 points of damage. making the other 5,000,000,049 points of damage he could have done irrelevant. A gunslinger that can do 300 points of damage will be MUCH more effective because he can kill 5 of those monsters doing his full 300 points of damage. The formula can't take into consideration that the ranged attacker will get their full attacks MUCH more than a melee attacker, and the formula assumes that all the damage will be relevant when in reality it won't be very often, or at least not nearly as often as a Gunslinger's.
I understand this point, but like I said in many games the GM's don't have monsters running from the martials so after round 1 they do tend to get full attacks. I would agree the formula is not 100% fair, but I would not say it has no merit.
Finally my point is this: If you kept Gunslingers exactly as they are, but made them use regular AC, I would be fine with it. DEX to damage for a misfire chance at lower levels.
I would prefer dex to damage, normal AC, and no misfire.
Oh yeah I said I would do a crossbow using xbow DPR stat out. I will use base fighter instead of the crossbow archetype.
Vs touch AC, no dex to damage
normal
11 49.59 hasted 66.12
rapid shot
11 66.12 hasted 82.65
RS+deadly aim
11 93.48 hasted 116.85
The gunslinger only had Misfire being calculated 113.7 with misfire being counted, and that was also including haste.
Jodakai I may have asked this before but I don't remember. How do you determine how much DPR is too much to be able to consistently be dealt?
Jodakai I may have asked this before but I don't remember. How do you determine how much DPR is too much to be able to consistently be dealt?
There is no specific number. My argument stems from actually playing the game. I play the game, I play it a lot. I've seen how in actual play, Gunslingers ruin games. I know that plugging numbers into a formula doesn't paint an accurate picture of actual game play. I laugh my behind off every time I read someone say Monks are under-powered. Saturday we played Tome of the Iron Medusa in a PFS game (PFS mind you) and a 15th level monk could have solo'd the entire thing. My 15th level Ranger couldn't have. The 14th level sorcerer couldn't have, but the Monk could have done it easily. The monk was also the first Pathfinder character she ever made. She had no idea what she was doing and just took feats that sounded cool. I can post the build and you can look at the module if you don't believe me, I'm not making this up. So I know for a fact that formulas are great for theory crafters, but are far from accurate.
The problem is that Gunslingers are ranged, so they almost always get full attacks, and they use touch ac so they almost never miss.
Wraithstrike: I understand this point, but like I said in many games the GM's don't have monsters running from the martials so after round 1 they do tend to get full attacks. I would agree the formula is not 100% fair, but I would not say it has no merit
It's not a matter of running. Like I said, unless the melee character is surrounded by enemies, he's either
1) Not going to get a full attack because he had to move into position.
2) Going to get a full attack against ONE enemy and kill it.
I want to analyze number 2. Let's say we're fighting 10 monsters with 49 hit points and they are all standing 10' from each other, maybe engaged with other party members. The Barbarian can do 6 billion points of damage per round, literally 6 Billion points of damage. the Gunslinger only does 300 points of damage per round. The Barbarian picks his enemy and pounces. He does 6 billion points of damage to 1 enemy. He killed 1 enemy, sure the enemy is now has negative 5,999,999,951 hit points, but that doesn't make him any more out of the fight that if he just had -1 hit point. Essentially that 6 billion points of damage is the same as doing 50 points of damage.
Now it's the gunslingers turn. He shoots the first target and kills it with 50 points of damage, he switches to the next target and kills that one and so on.
So while in theory the Barbarian can do 20 million times more damage than the gunslinger, in actual game play the Barbarian did 50 points of damage, and the gunslinger did 300. In actual game play the Barbarian's DPR is 50 and the gunslinger's is 300. Granted sometimes the barbarian will get ahold of 2 monsters, maybe even 3, but how often does that actually happen? In my experience, not very.
Elemental this is the last time I'm going to respond to you until you show at least some willingness to try to understand what you're responding to. It's very obvious by the post below that you have no idea what's being argued or what the point of what's being said is.
I hope you are not coming back to that ultility argument.
This is the first example of you having no idea what the argument is.
What are you talking about? zen archer may probably do more damage than non double barreled gunslinger considering how he loses to fighter. Also the way you are phrasing this is basically asking for a special pleading
May, probably...? Really?
It however gets more attacks and feats, plus manyshot
At a lower chance to hit. Remember that old addage from you formula users? Hitting is much more important than damage.
Instant enemy is a swift action, and seriously favored enemy is hardly the ranger's best class feature
And again, we're back to you having no idea what you're supposed to be arguing.
On the top of my mind? Summoner, Archer Paladin, Archer Fighter
I'm not sure how Summoner can do a lot of ranged damage, but a developer has all but said Summoner's are broken, the Paladin doesn't even come close except maybe 3 times per day against 1 enemy. And I doubt a fighter can do it either. They need 2 stats (STR and DEX) and a gunslinger can do everything they can, except a fighter has their weapon training, but a gunslinger gets are +10 to their to hit since most touch AC's are 10 points lower than actual AC's.
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Elemental this is the last time I'm going to respond to you until you show at least some willingness to try to understand what you're responding to. It's very obvious by the post below that you have no idea what's being argued or what the point of what's being said is.
ok.
I hope you are not coming back to that ultility argument.This is the first example of you having no idea what the argument is.
Its pretty well known your thesis is that the "gunslinger is broken" because " targets touch Ac and get dex to damage". Which is proven wrong. And no its not the first time you mention targeting, you mention you have a problem with it, you meant to say like a... personal problem? Or is it you are using it to defend your position that the gunslinger is broken?
May, probably...? Really?
What are you talking about? zen archer may probably do more damage than non double barreled gunslinger considering how he loses to fighter. Also the way you are phrasing this is basically asking for a special pleading
Unlike you i dont say hey "its logical" "everybody knows" "you have to be wrong" or shield myself on other falacius statements. I dont have the numbers so I wont say, this does more damage than this just based on my own perception. Considering how you always state ranged characters are better than melee, and since one of the most basic melee characters can beat the gunslinger its pretty easy to infere the outcome trough those considerations, but that may be beyond your grasp.
It however gets more attacks and feats, plus manyshot
At a lower chance to hit. Remember that old addage from you formula users? Hitting is much more important than damage.
Damage is still a factor, if damage is much higher it will beat it, if you have +100 to hit and deal 10 damage your dpr will be worst than +10 to hit and 100 damage. The Fighter is not going agaisnt touch ac, but it still does more damage
Instant enemy is a , and seriously favored enemy is hardly the ranger's best class featureAnd again, we're back to you having no idea what you're supposed to be arguing.
A Ranger can only do that damage to certain types of creatures and it's not consistent. Sure they can use Instant Enemy, but that has to be cast on EACH TARGET. So while the Ranger is the Gunslinger is destroying every target on the field.
Is you reading comprehension that lacking?
QUOTE="ElementalXX"]On the top of my mind? Summoner, Archer Paladin, Archer FighterI'm not sure how Summoner can do a lot of ranged damage, but a developer has all but said Summoner's are broken, the Paladin doesn't even come close except maybe 3 times per day against 1 enemy. And I doubt a fighter can do it either. They need 2 stats (STR and DEX) and a gunslinger can do everything they can, except a fighter has their weapon training, but a gunslinger gets are +10 to their to hit since most touch AC's are 10 points lower than actual AC's.
Its a pitty you doubt, i dont doubt. Randomly saying things proves nothing.
EDIT: wat...
There is no specific number. My argument stems from actually playing the game. I play the game, I play it a lot.I've seen how in actual play, Gunslingers ruin games. I know that plugging numbers into a formula doesn't paint an accurate picture of actual game play. I laugh my behind off every time I read someone say Monks are under-powered.
wow, just wow, what kind of eldritch dimension is this ,you are really dismissing numbers. Im not gonna argue anymore with someone who retorts to subjetivism and demagogy.
Aparently your mind goes like this:
You know why they are remaking the monk right? ... i better stop there, i dont even wanna start talking about it.
There is no specific number. My argument stems from actually playing the game. I play the game, I play it a lot. I've seen how in actual play, Gunslingers ruin games.
They ruin some games just like any other class depending on play style which makes your argument subjective. For you to prove a point you need an objective argument.
I know that plugging numbers into a formula doesn't paint an accurate picture of actual game play. I laugh my behind off every time I read someone say Monks are under-powered. Saturday we played Tome of the Iron Medusa in a PFS game (PFS mind you) and a 15th level monk could have solo'd the entire thing. My 15th level Ranger couldn't have. The 14th level sorcerer couldn't have, but the Monk could have done it easily. The monk was also the first Pathfinder character she ever made. She had no idea what she was doing and just took feats that sounded cool. I can post the build and you can look at the module if you don't believe me, I'm not making this up. So I know for a fact that formulas are great for theory crafters, but are far from accurate.
Its seems to me the problem for you is not DPR but the ability to attack anyone they want since they will lose on average lose to other posted ranged builds. It seems unless just dislike ranged builds as a whole.
As for the monk and that module I dont think I own it but I will check. Some classes just do well in certain adventures so. Yes post the build. Monks are underpowered because they are hard to build well barring certain archetypesAs for your comment about the math not matching well it might not in your game if the player rolls well but the thing about average numbers is that they remove bias based in lucky or unlucky rolls.
The problem is that Gunslingers are ranged, so they almost always get full attacks, and they use touch ac so they almost never miss.
Yeah like I thought the problem is ranged attacks. It definitely is not the numbers
It's not a matter of running. Like I said, unless the melee character is surrounded by enemies, he's either
1) Not going to get a full attack because he had to move into position.
2) Going to get a full attack against ONE enemy and kill it.
Focusing fire is why enemies should team up on the barbarian. At higher levels GMs are more likely to taken the kid gloves off but once again you are complaining about the gunslinger being able to reach more enemies not any specific number.
In a game people are more likely to remember certain events such as a gunslinger not misfiring and doing a lot of damage. That is why we use numbers to avoid human bias.
Jodakai I may have asked this before but I don't remember. How do you determine how much DPR is too much to be able to consistently be dealt?
Now now, no fair asking questions you haven't given a straight answer to yourself.
I honestly think you two need to kiss and makeup. You agree on this topic!
Again...
I mean we all know how powerful archers are, imagine an archer that gets DEX to damage and gets to use touch AC.An archer that gets DEX to damage and goes against touch AC is stupid powerful.
An ARCHER with touch arrows and DEX to damage? Really? You don't see how game breaking that is?
Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.
I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.
Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
And like I said before...
]Yeah... I'm pretty sure that Judokai hit the nail on the head there, wraithstrike. You proved it with numbers, but he was saying that the problem seemed to be touch AC with Dex to damage. You can add the double barreled guns but I doubt they would even be an issue if the other two weren't.
And unless you are disagreeing with him that it is effective to be able to hit more targets after your first target is down and at range then I think we are all in agreement. Am I wrong?
Jodakai I may have asked this before but I don't remember. How do you determine how much DPR is too much to be able to consistently be dealt?Now now, no fair asking questions you haven't given a straight answer to yourself.
I honestly think you two need to kiss and makeup. You agree on this topic!
Again...
No we dont. I said the class was not broken and he said it was. I am not the one making the claim so it is not my standard to set. I also said I would prefer for a player to not one round apl+2 opponents. That is applicable across all levels since you can look in the bestiary and find out how much hit point damage that would need to be. As for what is broken no dpr really breaks my games but the standard I listed earlier can make prepping more difficult than I would like for it to be. There is also another thread where the high standard was to one round a CR=APL opponent. Gunslingers do not reach it without double barreled weapons.
I really dont know what else you expect me to say. I really dont need a specific number from him but some standard to find a number would be nice.Oh and there is no way I am kissing Jodakai unless Jodakai is a female. Yeah I know you were kidding about that. :)
Oh I almost forgot--> I know my games are not the standard. I said this before, but it may have been overlooked. I think that a safe judgement for most games is you one rounding APL+1 opponents. If you can do that you might want to talk to the GM if you are new to the group, assuming you know the build can do that. No, I am not claiming that is what the standard for "broken" should be for everyone, but I would not do that at anyone's table unless I knew it was ok and/or expected.
I mean we all know how powerful archers are, imagine an archer that gets DEX to damage and gets to use touch AC.An archer that gets DEX to damage and goes against touch AC is stupid powerful.
An ARCHER with touch arrows and DEX to damage? Really? You don't see how game breaking that is?
Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.
I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.
Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
And like I said before...
Yeah... I'm pretty sure that Judokai hit the nail on the head there, wraithstrike. You proved it with numbers, but he was saying that the problem seemed to be touch AC with Dex to damage. You can add the double barreled guns but I doubt they would even be an issue if the other two weren't.
And unless you are disagreeing with him that it is effective to be able to hit more targets after your first target is down and at range then I think we are all in agreement. Am I wrong?
I agree that it is more effective to be able to hit more targets but I never claimed the dpr was broken. This thread is not about how many targets you can hit. I also think that going against touch AC should not happen. That is partial agreement, not full agreement. However touch attack vs AC is not a gunslinger rule. It is a "gun" rule. The gunslinger provides the dex to damage, but if the gunslinger had to target normal AC then dex to damage would not be that bad, and that misfire mechanic could be eliminated. I understand the misfire rule is also part of the flavor, but as a class the gunslinger should have a way to eventually get rid of it, assuming there was no touch AC.
Now I can tell from his writing that being able to reach multiple targets seems to be something he does not like but archers can do that also and from a further distance. Only when you bring in double barreled weapons does a gunslinger consistently outdamage an archer. Well that assumes the misfire calculations don't bring them down to a much lower number, but I am sure that in most games double barreled guns still pull ahead of archers.Now of course he could say archers are OP also but like you touched on I think he dislikes multiple opponents being attacked from ranged. However that is not a gunslinger trait. That is the property of any decently built ranged attacker. I also don't think that is broken to be able to attack like that from range so if that is a main concern we don't agree on that either.
Also I posted stats to a crossbow user using touch to AC as Jodokai suggested, but no dex to damage. The crossbow was on par with the gunslinger. Personally I think that getting dex to damage with no touch AC would be better since many GM's would not worry so much about the "not missing touch AC" part. I also think this would require the need for a way to get rid of the misfire mechanic. No I have not run numbers on that either.
That damage(average) the gunslinger did once I added in the chance for misfire was standard in the other thread which is where we decided how much DPR should be expected per level.
Also adding this all together it seems that to him the gunslinger DPR is ok. He just does not like that gunslinger to reliably do that much damage every round due to distance not being much of a factor because it means that his DPR is more efficient than a martial characters.
As an example if an barbarian 2 rounds someone and nobody is nearby the rest of his potential attacks are gone as stated by Jodokai. For the archer he just changes targets and keeps firing. I however fail to see why that is a problem.
@judokai
A bow is already doing more damage at normal AC. There is no way a bow with touch AC should be compared to a gun. I did not actually see that statement until Lune reposted it. I am glad he did however. I think that if I use that fighter from earlier in the thread, and I drop down to a touch AC of 10, which is what I used for the gunslinger that the DPR of the archer fighter would go up by about 50, and that would pass by the gunslinger when I am not accounting for misfires. It might even compete with double barreled weapons with misfire added in.
I understand that the gunslinger will get a few full round attacks of no misfire in. However you also have to look at when he goes 1 or 2 rounds without full attacking. Yeah the guy at your table might roll well and get enough full attacks to be above the average but that is luck. You may also not feel like the times the gunslinger does no full attack makes up for all the times he does. However that is a personal preference. If you or anyone is arguing for balance at your table then your subjective opinion is very important. However when making a statement for the game as a whole our personal experience and opinions dont matter as much and we need to bring some facts that can be verified or measured to the discussion.
I also get that ranged characters get a head start on DPR since they start will a full attack, but the last build I had put up was an archer, not a barbarian. The gunslinger was behind there also.
PS: Sorry about butchering your name. Most of this was done on my phone, and I could not see the name to spell it correctly every time.
It sounds like even some folks who dig the Gunslinger and think inflicting physical damage with ranged touch attacks is just fine are willing to concede that maybe the current rules for double-barreled guns might be ill-advised.
I think that limiting the “double shot” to a standard action would shut down the double-barreled “cheese” which Jeremias doesn’t use and wraithstrike seemed to feel shouldn’t be used to represent the power balance of Gunslingers in general. I think the problems with touch AC might run deeper than that, but since many of the threads complaining about Gunslingers involve double barreled guns maybe toning those down would reduce the number and intensity of the complaints about Gunslingers and guns in general. After a cooling off period and some chances to observe Gunslingers in play folks could consider how they feel about the class as a whole without having their opinions colored by double-barreled TWF Pistoleros of Doom (which seems like what the OP was complaining about really)
@Jodokai - I'm not sure how helpful the Deadshot Vest would be unless it can reduce the cost of using Deadeye to zero when combined with Signature Deed (Deadeye). If possible it might be a pretty cool combo for folks who want to make really sure they're well out of melee range - of course you only get so many feats...
@Dead Phoenix - Unless I've missed something Signature Deed (Twin Shot Knockdown) would allow you to knock opponents prone without spending any grit. Either way it isn't critical for the DPR calculations and could be swapped out to cover anything else which seems more important, useful, or amusing.