Jodokai, you are not getting the point. I mocked your example because you deliberately set a completely convinient set to make a barbarian look bad. First considering said barbarian is fighting 2 CR 11 monsters completely ALONE with complete disregard of any strategy. This is a DEADLY CR 13 encounter vs a 11 level PC.
Second you assume the barbarian WIL NOT have any way to deal with reach, will be a vanilla Barbarian with no optimization or high DR.
But also the comparison is AN OPTIMIZED GUNSLINGER.
You are comparing a schrdinger gunslinger who is also a pistolero and a musket master, has range , damage , ignoresmisfires, doesnt multiclass, has good scores and enough system mastery and you are comparing to vanilla barbarian.
Please, I'm begging you. If you're going to argue and disagree with me, at least take the time to read the thread. I have statted out the gunslinger. Look in the thread and you will see it. The only thing I've changed is removed Reckless Aim and added Cluster Shot. Then I added a +6 Belt. That's it. I haven't changed a thing from that. He's a pistolero.
That's also no "vanilla" barbarian. Do you see how he figured out how to rage cycle? No newbie is going to know that. I took less time building my gunslinger than he did building his barbarian. As a matter of fact, he's the playing with Schrodinger's cat. Taking reach weapons when it's convenient, using fly potions when he needs it, being permanently enlarged. Even with all of that, you still think I'm the one optimizing. That just proves how unbalanced the Gunslinger is.
I didn't deliberately do anything. I picked a random CR 11 monster from the list that I recognized. When I first started this, I had no idea they had 15' reach, I figured it was 10'. That gunslinger is just as "optimized" as the Barbarian. And that really is my point. He looks like an optimized gunslinger because of how awesome it is, but really I just took the feats ANYONE would take for a ranged character and made my gun reliable, again a newbie who just started playing would figure that out.
Yeah you're right it is a deadly encounter, that the gunslinger can get through without getting touched, with 2 full round actions, and that a barbarian who can't morph into what is needed at the time like Undone's does, would be screwed.
You're right the barbarian won't have anyway to deal with reach which is of course EXACTLY MY POINT. It is very easy to keep a melee character from making a full attack, let alone keeping them from getting 3 AoO a round.
Just one little thing to add: Pistols don't have Touch AC at 30 feet. You have to burn grit for every shot.
Distance on the gun makes it 40', but okay he's 20' away still far enough to be out of the 15' range.
So you would need either 8 grit (unlikely) or you have to take Signature Deed which means your enemy will have cover (because no IPS). At least in my group we use cover. A lot.
And 8 shots without a misfire? The probability for that is 27%. Not very likely.
Greater Reliable has a ZERO misfire chance. Even without, the misfire chance is 2 with Paper cartridges, so he'll usually get 18 shots off without a misfire.
As far as cover, so what? Get your +4 to AC that means the Gunslinger has to hit a whopping 13 AC, which means he only has a 75% chance to hit with his last shot. Ohs nos. Cover also affects the barbarian dropping his to hit chances too.
Really? I would say this is not the case... In our last fight the barbarian had around 3-4 full attacks in 4-5 rounds. And the enemies were not grouped together or something like that. He used two pounces. In the same time I had as many full attacks.
A ranged attacker should have had 5 of 5 full attacks, proving my point.
That said: I still don't get how this fictional pistolero could reload all his pistols. cnetarians routine wouldn't work with me (a pistol really doesn't count as a "small object"!).
I'm not sure where you're getting "all his pistols" He's using ONE gun. Yeah, read that again and take your time. I'm not using some tail exploit or pre-nerf weapon cords. It's ONE gun. Double that if I used the tail. Hell if I really wanted to get creative and use random buffs like the barbarian is, he uses UMD and casts Unseen Servant and reloads that way.
Why isn't the Musket Master using a double-barreled musket? I'd expect that doing so would raise his DPR to around 125. I'd expect that a Pistolero might be able to boost that significantly with Up Close and Deadly.
What's not viable about the Gunslinger you listed, AC27? Ammo cost? It looks like WBL problems could be a little tight at 11th level. Things would be better after 13th level when misfires disappear. In the meantime I'd think that getting a slightly cheaper belt might free up some gold.
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Jodokai, you are not getting the point. I mocked your example because you deliberately set a completely convinient set to make a barbarian look bad. First considering said barbarian is fighting 2 CR 11 monsters completely ALONE with complete disregard of any strategy. This is a DEADLY CR 13 encounter vs a 11 level PC.
Second you assume the barbarian WIL NOT have any way to deal with reach, will be a vanilla Barbarian with no optimization or high DR.
But also the comparison is AN OPTIMIZED GUNSLINGER.
You are comparing a schrdinger gunslinger who is also a pistolero and a musket master, has range , damage , ignoresmisfires, doesnt multiclass, has good scores and enough system mastery and you are comparing to vanilla barbarian.Please, I'm begging you. If you're going to argue and disagree with me, at least take the time to read the thread. I have statted out the gunslinger. Look in the thread and you will see it. The only thing I've changed is removed Reckless Aim and added Cluster Shot. Then I added a +6 Belt. That's it. I haven't changed a thing from that. He's a pistolero.
That's also no "vanilla" barbarian. Do you see how he figured out how to rage cycle? No newbie is going to know that. I took less time building my gunslinger than he did building his barbarian. As a matter of fact, he's the playing with Schrodinger's cat. Taking reach weapons when it's convenient, using fly potions when he needs it, being permanently enlarged. Even with all of that, you still think I'm the one optimizing. That just proves how unbalanced the Gunslinger is.
I didn't deliberately do anything. I picked a random CR 11 monster from the list that I recognized. When I first started this, I had no idea they had 15' reach, I figured it was 10'. That gunslinger is just as "optimized" as the Barbarian. And that really is my point. He looks like an optimized gunslinger because of how awesome it is, but really I just took the feats ANYONE would take for a ranged character and made my gun...
Teleportation, action reducers, more reach, High DR are all ways to beat, easily handling an encounter like this and all of which this could have access. As much as you would like even if the gunslinger manages to 0KO one giant the other would kill him. Grapples checks are really easy when you are that big, and even if he miss the grapple and since he has 15 reach no 5ft move will help, it will provoke 2 aos per attack.
And yes hes a vanilla barbarian, all barbarians can rage cycle because abosultely all of the become inmune to fatigue.
One thing is to say THIS (2 actually, because you deliberately needed to use 2) monster in a deadly encounter kills a barbarian when alone and unprepared. Other is to say ALL monsters of this CR kill this barbarian on all possible setups. Guess what, there are more monsters than classes. Its way too easy to find a monster that counters a class, and it way more easy when you aim it at a specific convinient point.
This why real tests of classes are done versus 5 or more varied creatures, such as ONE monk or Vaccum wizard tests
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Why isn't the Musket Master using a double-barreled musket? I'd expect that doing so would raise his DPR to around 125. I'd expect that a Pistolero might be able to boost that significantly with Up Close and Deadly.
What's not viable about the Gunslinger you listed, AC27? Ammo cost? It looks like WBL problems could be a little tight at 11th level. Things would be better after 13th level when misfires disappear. In the meantime I'd think that getting a slightly cheaper belt might free up some gold.
Idk , maybe he built it for PFS?
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Its funny how this thread changes from "gunslinger is broken cause DPR"(proven false) and then changes to "gunslinger is broken because utility". Considering the title is "THE GUNSLINGER : D(E)RP HELL ON GOLARION" is think its pretty much proved gunslingers dont have the highest dpr, the answer is pretty clear
Ok, I quit. You're all right. Stopping a melee attacks with a 10' reach is MUCH harder than stoping a ranged attacker. I don't know what I was thinking. My bad fellas. I thought simple logic would win out, I see now I was mistaken.
For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.
There are quiet a few issues here. First is that "too much DPR" much like "what is OP or broken" is highly subjective, and for the record while the two are not the same. Something be be broken and be almost useless or just not work as intended due to bad rules writing.
"A lot of complaints" does not equal "OP". I used to see complaints about psionics and the tomb of battle a lot. 99% of the time the rules were being misread, or the person was just trying to find a way to ban it without looking bad because he did not like the idea of it.
I personally dont' think that doing enough damage in one round to kill a APL=CR opponent is too much, but for those that do yes some things may be OP.
Since this thread is only about DPR nothing else really matters.
We have claims that the gunslinger is OP. Are these special build which most classes have than can cause problems or does this apply to any generic build.
IF you have to dump a one stat to make it work then it is not a class issue if you have 20 point buy.
One creature whether it is a giant, ghost, or demon does not prove a build is broken or really good.
A while back I was in one of these types of discussions, and what we did was build characters, and then sent them up against a variety of challenges. Some melee(bash your face in monsters), stealth based, flyers, and so on. We also had multiple creature fights, and we used APL+X fights because any decent character can handle a APL=CR fight. The assumption was also made that the character was part of a party, and whether or not the party was better off with class A or class B after all the results were in.
Now this required a few days of posting, but it showed quiet a few things. As for tactics any poster could present them as could the people who made the monsters since the idea was to give the character the best chance for success, and not just win a debate.
As an example, if we were to do this, and the person with the gunslinger had gold left over, but he did not get a melee weapon, then we might ask him to consider it. If he said he would go without then that is that, and he would have to live with the consequences.
Now my gunslinger in my game did not go past level 11, and was not trying to use free actions to get 8000(hyperbole) shots off. That is why I posted before that I did not think the gunslinger was OP for damage. Another thing is that there have been math disputes so if someone is breaking a rule then we should handle that also assuming anyone is interested. Yes, I saw builds earlier in the thread. :)
Actual builds remove the "but if my character had.." issues, and using multiple monsters prevents the "you picked a monster that you knew would work against my character".
If the gunslinger is shown to be worse(a lot more powerful than I thought) then it helps GM's to consider tactics against them, so I really don't care which way this goes, but the way this is being done now won't really prove anything.
My suggestion:
CRB, ACG, UM, UC, Ultimate Equipment
2 traits
20 point buy
no magic item worth over 33% of your wealth. <---not likely to happen in a game. I am not saying it is not possible, but I don't think this happens in many games, and we are trying to reproduce game conditions.
I think it is fair to assume DPR with and without Haste since it is a common spell, and this is about DPR. For my situation listed above I got it approved because I used named a caster that had already been made for another game, and only his prepared spells that day were availible.
Core races only--The class not some race with some special trait should do the heavy lifting.
Personally I would like to see a complete gunslinger build even if there is no barbarian build.
I could try to build one on my own, which I might do if nobody builds one, since I have never made one, and it would represent what a basic gunslinger can do.
According to another recent thread; The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.Suggested encounters include...? A dragon should probably be on the list, and I think we'd prefer staying inside the CR 5-15 range.
That is the formula, but there are spreadsheets that do the math for you.
As for crit range the crit range for the encounters should go from from APL-2 to APL+4(CR15).
Gunslinger
Human gunslinger (pistolero) 12 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 9, 51)
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +3
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 22, flat-footed 13 (+4 armor, +9 Dex, +4 dodge, -1 untyped penalty)
hp 88 (12d10+12)
Fort +12, Ref +21, Will +10
Defensive Abilities nimble +3
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Ranged +1 distance reliable, greater double-barreled pistol +21/+21/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+20/×4)
Special Attacks deeds (dead shot, deadeye, expert loading, gunslinger initiative, gunslinger's dodge, lightning reload, pistol-whip, quick clear, targeting, twin shot knockdown, utility shot, up close and deadly, up close and deadly, up close and deadly), grit (6)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 28, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +13; CMD 34
Feats Clustered Shots[UC], Deadly Aim, Gunsmithing[UC], Improved Precise Shot, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Reckless Aim, Signature Deed[UC], Weapon Focus (double-barreled pistol)
Skills Acrobatics +9 (+21 to jump)
Languages Common
SQ gunsmith, pistol training
Combat Gear potion of haste; Other Gear +3 haramaki, +1 distance reliable, greater double-barreled pistol, belt of incredible dexterity +6, cloak of resistance +3, 10,350 gp
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Special Abilities
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Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Pistol Training (+10, misfire value -2) (Ex) Starting at 5th level, a pistolero increases her skill with one-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Double-barreled pistol) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Reckless Aim Your lack of regard for others proves a boon when you fire projectiles into melee.
There he is, in my haste to create the first one, I left out 3 feats (pretty sure I only made him level 11 too, but meh. Now this is with a Haste Potion on, and I used a double barrel instead of a single one, and he still has 10k gold to play with.
You can see if when he shoots both barrels at the same time his to hit is: 17/17/17/12/7, meaning he has a 5% miss chance on a touch AC of 9 with all but his last shot, which is a 10% miss chance. he has ZERO chance of misfire, which makes his gun really expensive, and is completely unneeded, I could save 32k-ish by making it just Reliable instead of Greater, but I wanted to make easy math. Also remember that next level his class will give him a zero miss chance on all pistols, so that could be a straight +4 Distance then.
Now I'll break down his damage math again, since people don't believe it, this is actually going to be higher since I'm using haste now:
Each bullet does
Weapon Damage: 1d8
+20 (Dex+9, Deadly Aim+8, Point-Blank +1, +1 Weapon, +1 Pistol Training)
+3d6 Up Close and Deadly Signature feat means every shot, with not Grit cost. So each bullet does:
1d8+20+3d6
With Haste and Rapid Shot, he gets 5 Attacks per round at (Base attack +12, +9 DEX, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Reckless Aim, +1 Haste, +1 Point Blank, +1 Weapon, -4 Deadly Aim, -2 Rapid shot.)
+21/+21/+21/+17/+12
If he were using a single barreled pistol the damage would be:
5d8 (5 shots x 1d8) The average for 1d8 is 4.5 that means his damage would be 22.5 (5 x 4.5)
Now we have to add the +20 modifier for EACH BULLET which is 100 (5 X 20)
Right now the damage is 122.5 22.5 + 100
Now we have to add in the 3d6 for EACH BULLET. The average of 1d6 is 3.5. it's 15d6 (5 x 3d6) so that comes out to 52.5 (15 x 3.5)
add that to our previous total and now we're up to 175 (122.5 + 52.5)
So the final total for 1 barrel is 175, but he's using 2 barrels, so we double that damage to 350 (175 * 2). That also brings down his to hit by 4 so instead of +21/+21/+21/+17/+12/+7, he's 17/17/17/12/7
Now if you still don't believe that damage is accurate, I really can't help you.
And for the last time the DPR is over 300 to match the barb. You've not broken 300.
Even if we assume you do 280 damage at 12. The HP of a monster is 160 average. You need 320 average to reach broken damage. Killing 1 target a turn is not broken. It doesn't matter how you're doing it.
If you think killing 1 thing around and doing some spare damage is broken then we have vastly different definitions of broken.
Gee, look at my new build, 350 without even trying.
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Question for the masses, since I don't play many archers and was never entirely clear on it: if a character has a range increment of 20 and he wants to stay just out of reach of the ogre's longspear (20 foot reach), is he firing within his first range increment or his second?
Also, touch AC 9 kinda weird. Need a wider variety of enemies.
You are firing within the first range increment, if you fire from more than 20ft then you are firing beyond the first range increment and take a -2 to hit or more(depending on how further you are firing), also an ogre is a large creature so his range would be 15ft, i guess you meant to say giant?
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You are firing within the first range increment, if you fire from more than 20ft then you are firing beyond the first range increment and take a -2 to hit or more(depending on how further you are firing), also an ogre is a large creature so his range would be 15ft, i guess you meant to say giant?Question for the masses, since I don't play many archers and was never entirely clear on it: if a character has a range increment of 20 and he wants to stay just out of reach of the ogre's longspear (20 foot reach), is he firing within his first range increment or his second?
Also, touch AC 9 kinda weird. Need a wider variety of enemies.
FYI, a large creature with a reach weapon has a 20' reach. From the PRD:
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.
The idea is to survive four encounters per day. This is not a one fight a day thing so if you have an expendable the numbers will need to be run with and without that expendable.
Feel free to rewrite the character.
I say this because the idea is to reproduce game like situations, not to see who the best optimizer is.
I have not looked at your characters, but I also suggest that you either get a ranged weapon, or a way to fly. Yeah if you can't fly I we can assume the caster in your party might cast fly on you, but we would also have to run one where you do not have fly.
PS: All of this goes for both characters.
Now I will go read some post.
hmm interesting, so a giant with a spear can hit at 30ft?
That depends on the giant. IF it is huge then yes, if he has a reach weapon.
However for this exercise I prefer to use the monsters as they are from the book to avoid any bias or appearance of bias. Yes, I am aware that in a home gain the GM may change feats, equipment, and so on.
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A good starting point would be the rules from the DPR olympics threads. They take into account things like needing a certain will save to be considered viable IIRC.
Really though, just flicking through the DPR olympics thread should be enough to completely settle this argument. Gunslingers do very reasonable damage, but they aren't even in the top 5 highest DPR classes in the game. IIRC those are:
Soundstriker bard
Summoner
Cleric
Druid
AM Barbarian
Although not sure about the order. Ragelancepounce barb used to be the highest but the nerf changed that. Soundstriker bard is based off of a dodgy rules interpretation and probably also wouldn't fly in a real game, but works fine for the purposes of the thread. The pet classes are very hard to beat due to the nature of the action economy.
Basically, the gunslinger is fine. He is often an issue in games where the GM throws singular, tough 'bruiser' enemies against his players. This is the ideal situation for a gunslinger and you would expect him to shine. In this case it is the GM who needs to adapt, not the player.
Combat Gear potion of haste;I fell out of my chair laughing. Do you actually think this counts toward your DPR? You buy the boots or you don't get it in a DPR thread unless you can haste as a swift/free.
I'm glad I gave you a laugh because I shot soda out of my nose when you were suddenly permanently Enlarged, could all of a sudden fly, had feather step, and took 3 free feats (beast totem). My entire gaming group still giggles about you including AoO in your DPR.
First of all it's not thanks to the potion of haste (Which again I fell out of my chair laughing when I realized thats how you haste) second off even if we allow it you fail to pass the barbarian I made hastily.
That gunslinger was done more hastily so I didn't comb through the magic items looking on how to rage cycle. Not to mention this is my first gunslinger and you've made barbarians before.
But okay I'll play your silly game, Make the cloak +2 and take the boots of speed, and oh look we're gravy again.
As far as the, gun, yeah I'm not playing your game. All it's going to do is be more math and not simulate actual play with terrain, other party members getting in your way etc. etc. The whole problem that you can't seem to get through your head is that you will not get full attacks as often as a ranged character. A lot of rounds you will do 60 points of damage (1 attack) while the gunslinger will do 350. Even if we both get single attacks I do 78 damage you do 59. I can always use two barrels. I can move 30' do 78 damage AND knock the thing prone while you're doing 59 points of damage. I know you don't see that and you never will. No amount of DPR olympics will ever get that through to you.
@Jeremias - I can understand that you’re restricted to wealth by level. I wouldn’t think that the small price difference between a single and double barreled gun would make a big difference though unless maybe you need to enchant each barrel separately. If that’s the case it would make a pretty big difference at lower levels though a bit less so after 13th level when the misfire chance disappears.
@wraithstrike - The crazy go nuts DPR of the Pistolero I saw in play was certainly exacerbated by the fact she was a replacement PC who popped into play at 15th level with no concerns for how she got there and enough WBL to be fully tricked out with whatever crazy equipment the player wanted. I’ve considered limiting future replacement PCs to an NPC’s WBL. I don’t think anybody likes it when the “new guy” shows up with a bunch of material from newer books and glaringly outperforms the long time veterans. Even worse, it creates an incentive for old PCs to commit suicide by monster. Most folks I play with avoid that, but way back a DM did have to institute a house rule that when you die all your equipment disappears (Yes, there was actually a guy who seemed to be equipment farming…)
@Blakmane - FYI - The Soundstriker Bard got hit hard with the Nerf bat. Per a ruling by the Paizo Design Team you can no longer use more than one Weird Word on the same target. Having played with those rules for about 6 levels I can tell you that it makes the archetype pretty uninspiring.
Also, touch AC 9 kinda weird. Need a wider variety of enemies.
What's weird about it? Out of the 54 monsters listed as CR 11 on d20pfsrd 32 of them have a touch AC of 10 or less. only two have a touch AC of 20 or higher, one being 20 the other being 25. So no, touch AC of 9 isn't weird at all.
@Blakmane - FYI - The Soundstriker Bard got hit hard with the Nerf bat. Per a ruling by the Paizo Design Team you can no longer use more than one Weird Word on the same target. Having played with those rules for about 6 levels I can tell you that it makes the archetype pretty uninspiring.
Poor soundstriker. Probably for the best though: I think it was hitting 700+ damage per round at one point.
Still doesn't bring the gunslinger into the top five though. Magus shenanigans are still above it, and I think there might be some others too (Inquisitor? Zen archer monk even?).
I'd like to ask a side question, how is the Sound Striker bard manage such a high DPR? Just from weird words, or is it something else?
Regardless, I would be interested to find out. I have been looking for the DPR olympics thread and wasn't able to find the one demonstrating the Sound Striker's power.
What is the AM barbarian?
@wraithstrike - The crazy go nuts DPR of the Pistolero I saw in play was certainly exacerbated by the fact she was a replacement PC who popped into play at 15th level with no concerns for how she got there and enough WBL to be fully tricked out with whatever crazy equipment the player wanted. I’ve considered limiting future replacement PCs to an NPC’s WBL. I don’t think anybody likes it when the “new guy” shows up with a bunch of material from newer books and glaringly outperforms the long time veterans. Even worse, it creates an incentive for old PCs to commit suicide by monster. Most folks I play with avoid that, but way back a DM did have to institute a house rule that when you die all your equipment disappears (Yes, there was actually a guy who seemed to be equipment farming…)
Depending on the game new players can definitely have an advantage. I have them come in with the average WBL of any party member without crafting feats, and then you place restrictions on them that the party would have to deal with.
Now generally speaking I am pretty lax about equipment so the veteran players can dont have normally have their hands tied about what they can get so this would not have been a problem. It is something that I overlooked my first few years of GM'ing however.
What is the AM barbarian?
It is the alias of a poster here and he used to speak in character as if he was a low int, barbarian.
The build involved pouncing, and using lances while on a mount. IIRC it might have involved two lances.
I will go back later and do the math on Jodokai's build and see if it can reload a double barreled weapon in one round, and I also want to see a non pisterolo(probably spelled wrong) gunslinger because if only this archetype, which I have heard of, is doing insane damage then the gunslinger as a whole is not the problem. It is just that one archetype, just like the zen archer is a good, but the monk class as a whole is not so great.
I'd like to ask a side question, how is the Sound Striker bard manage such a high DPR? Just from weird words, or is it something else?
Regardless, I would be interested to find out. I have been looking for the DPR olympics thread and wasn't able to find the one demonstrating the Sound Striker's power.
Weird words + sneak attack shenanigans. As pointed out further up, it has been nerfed and no longer works.
The Pistolero can be brutal, but if you're looking for the "smoking gun" which makes Gunslinger DPR go way up I think that gun is double-barreled. I think touch attacks in general are a game mechanic which could use a tweak, but it is probably the ability to get two attacks in the place of one which makes the Gunslinger seem completely nuts to me.
Since the -4 penalty for the "double shot" isn't likely to make touch attacks miss doubling the number of attacks seems pretty close to doubling DPR. If you restrict the "double shot" to a standard action most of the higher DPR Gunslinger builds would probably come back down to Earth (or Golarion as the case might be).
I'd hope that even those who don't feel the Gunslinger's DPR is problematic might wonder if it is really a good idea to have one gun which does twice as much damage as another. If the Barbarian had access to a "double-bladed greataxe" which can split each attack into two at -4 to hit I suspect that might become problematic too. Even AM Barbarian would probably do a lot more damage dual wielding "double lances". Game balance aside, doubling a PC's number of attacks can create more die rolls than some folks would like to see, especially if TWF is involved.
@wraithstrike - You can eventually reload as many barrels per round as you wish using alchemical cartridges. At lower levels this is expensive and will tend to make your gun misfire. At higher levels the cost is negligible, especially in the case we'd discussed where a PC pops into existence fully equipped. Even Paizo couldn't manage to slow down the Gunslinger's reload rate (they tried a free action FAQ, but it got rejected)
The Pistolero can be brutal, but if you're looking for the "smoking gun" which makes Gunslinger DPR go way up I think that gun is double-barreled. I think touch attacks in general are a game mechanic which could use a tweak, but it is probably the ability to get two attacks in the place of one which makes the Gunslinger seem completely nuts to me.
Since the -4 penalty for the "double shot" isn't likely to make touch attacks miss doubling the number of attacks seems pretty close to doubling DPR. If you restrict the "double shot" to a standard action most of the higher DPR Gunslinger builds would probably come back down to Earth (or Golarion as the case might be).
I'd hope that even those who don't feel the Gunslinger's DPR is problematic might wonder if it is really a good idea to have one gun which does twice as much damage as another. If the Barbarian had access to a "double-bladed greataxe" which can split each attack into two at -4 to hit I suspect that might become problematic too. Even AM Barbarian would probably do a lot more damage dual wielding "double lances". Game balance aside, doubling a PC's number of attacks can create more die rolls than some folks would like to see, especially if TWF is involved.
@wraithstrike - You can eventually reload as many barrels per round as you wish using alchemical cartridges. At lower levels this is expensive and will tend to make your gun misfire. At higher levels the cost is negligible, especially in the case we'd discussed where a PC pops into existence fully equipped. Even Paizo couldn't manage to slow down the Gunslinger's reload rate (they tried a free action FAQ, but it got rejected)
That also works since my build will not use a double barreled gun. It shows that a specific combo is doing all of the work, much like AM Barbarian should not stand in for normal barbarian damage. The problem as cited by myself and others goes back to "builds" not classes, but I will still compare the Pisteloro and his double barreled gun to a "normal" gunslinger. It just wont be today.
edit: "works fine" means that the clarification works since it lets me know how far I need to go to get a "standard" build.
If you want to argue guns are OP there's a little more of a case for that but it tends to be with unexpected classes like the holy gun or as you noted the fighter archetype.
The gunslinger is not that class.
Really? Further up you said 320 was broken. I get to 350 and now that's fine?
And really what's your point? You're "Lazy Barbarian" can't do 1/3 of the stuff you're talking about. You didn't take Beast Totems, you didn't pay for a permanent enlarge, you didn't buy flying potions (but I guess those don't count anyway)... Hmm I wonder what the Gunslinger DPR would be if I made him permanently enlarged? Add another 2.5 per bullet for 10 bullets, now I'm up to 375. What was your morphing to anything you need at the time barbarian's again?
Also trying to say the gunslinger isn't broken because things are more broken is kind of like saying having your skin ripped off is fun because dying is bad.
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I think the problem is that so far at best you have shown a very specific build to be a problem instead of the class as a whole, while the thread is about the class, not any one build.