-If i can make 3 attack and i use double musket i can make up to 6 attacks at a penalty.
-If i use one double pistol i can make up to 4 at a penalty.
-If i use 2 double pistols i can make up to 5 attacks, i can make up to 7 if i have Improved TWF and Greater TWF.All fo this attacks apply the normal madifiers such as precision damage or sneak attack and enchantments.
Note: You need shenanigans to be able to use twf with pistols.
Lirianne, Pathfinder Gunslinger
Funny that Paizo's only official Gunslinger miniature is dual weilding pistols. LoL
/twocents
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Ok so a few things
I'm not the only one being being difficult.
As far as me being "flatly wrong", take it up with Hero Labs. That's what it came out to when I inputted your data. I'll post the Stat block if you'd like to see it.
If you look at my gunslinger I did it in 5 minutes and took some things no one would really take. If I really wanted to prove my point I could have used a tiefling with a tail and double barrel pistols, which removes the need for weapon cords. I mean take out Reckless Aim and add cluster shots get the rest of your magic items a +6 belt of DEX, a couple of Ioun Stones and you can double barrel attack every attack. That makes the damage 2d8+40+6d6 for 4 attacks that comes out to 8d8+160+24d6 for an average damage of 280 and that's going to be EVERY round.
Your Barbarian's damage depends on full attacks and 3 AoO per round. Do you know how often that actually happens? Very rarely, if ever. I have a friend who plays a Ranger Archer in PFS. She's 9th level so that means 24 pre made scenarios assuming no modules. In those 24 scenarios she has NEVER been hit by an attack. No monsters have ever targeted her. She's an archer she stands in the back and makes full attacks every round. When I play with her I usually use my Invulnerable Rager Barbarian. She out DPR's me by MILES because she can full attack every round, where I rarely get to. She actually doesn't use all of her attacks sometimes so other people can join the fight. I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.
That's where all your formulas are wrong you can't factor in how many more times a gunslinger will full attack more than a melee fighter, and it's A LOT. Consider this: How many threads start with "The Barbarian is ruining my game" and compare that to the Gunslinger threads.
At this point I realize we're never going to agree. I've played with gunslingers and know the damage they do, and how broken they are. I played through Kingmaker with one, and I was a stereotypical Kensai Magus. No one ever complained about my damage, just the gunslingers.
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-If i can make 3 attack and i use double musket i can make up to 6 attacks at a penalty.
-If i use one double pistol i can make up to 4 at a penalty.
-If i use 2 double pistols i can make up to 5 attacks, i can make up to 7 if i have Improved TWF and Greater TWF.All fo this attacks apply the normal madifiers such as precision damage or sneak attack and enchantments.
Note: You need shenanigans to be able to use twf with pistols.
Lirianne, Pathfinder Gunslinger
Funny that Paizo's only official Gunslinger miniature is dual weilding pistols. LoL
/twocents
Paizo's iconic fighter two weapon fights with a bastard sword. They aren't met to be optimal.
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Paizo's iconic fighter two weapon fights with a bastard sword. They aren't met to be optimal.-If i can make 3 attack and i use double musket i can make up to 6 attacks at a penalty.
-If i use one double pistol i can make up to 4 at a penalty.
-If i use 2 double pistols i can make up to 5 attacks, i can make up to 7 if i have Improved TWF and Greater TWF.All fo this attacks apply the normal madifiers such as precision damage or sneak attack and enchantments.
Note: You need shenanigans to be able to use twf with pistols.
Lirianne, Pathfinder Gunslinger
Funny that Paizo's only official Gunslinger miniature is dual weilding pistols. LoL
/twocents
I always tought he used a longsword+shortsowrd, his weapons are not that big.
Funnily, the fighter iconic does use TWF and has above average stats in order to make it work (higher than point 20) and qualify for feats
Lirianne iconoic does not use TWF at all nor it uses double pistols. Which is funny considering EVERY depiction of her is using Double pistols and TWF. Seriously I dont know how paizo expected players didnt want to emulate the iconic, is so conterintuitive. Anyway one of the devs said lirianne used both weapons in order to make iteratives with them and not reload, but then i ask myself why lirianne didnt just used alchemichal cartridges... sight...
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Ok so a few thingsI'm not the only one being being difficult.
As far as me being "flatly wrong", take it up with Hero Labs. That's what it came out to when I inputted your data. I'll post the Stat block if you'd like to see it.
If you look at my gunslinger I did it in 5 minutes and took some things no one would really take. If I really wanted to prove my point I could have used a tiefling with a tail and double barrel pistols, which removes the need for weapon cords. I mean take out Reckless Aim and add cluster shots get the rest of your magic items a +6 belt of DEX, a couple of Ioun Stones and you can double barrel attack every attack. That makes the damage 2d8+40+6d6 for 4 attacks that comes out to 8d8+160+24d6 for an average damage of 280 and that's going to be EVERY round.
Your Barbarian's damage depends on full attacks and 3 AoO per round. Do you know how often that actually happens? Very rarely, if ever. I have a friend who plays a Ranger Archer in PFS. She's 9th level so that means 24 pre made scenarios assuming no modules. In those 24 scenarios she has NEVER been hit by an attack. No monsters have ever targeted her. She's an archer she stands in the back and makes full attacks every round. When I play with her I usually use my Invulnerable Rager Barbarian. She out DPR's me by MILES because she can full attack every round, where I rarely get to. She actually doesn't use all of her attacks sometimes so other people can join the fight. I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.
That's where all your formulas are wrong you can't factor in how many more times a gunslinger will full attack more than a melee fighter, and it's A LOT. Consider this: How many threads start with "The Barbarian is ruining my game" and compare that to the Gunslinger threads.
At this point I realize we're never going to agree. I've played with gunslingers and know the damage they do, and how broken they are. I played through Kingmaker...
you cant reload with a tail, most problems of teh gunslinger come from poor knowledge of the basic mechanics of the gunslinger
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Ok so a few thingsI'm not the only one being being difficult.
As far as me being "flatly wrong", take it up with Hero Labs. That's what it came out to when I inputted your data. I'll post the Stat block if you'd like to see it.
If you look at my gunslinger I did it in 5 minutes and took some things no one would really take. If I really wanted to prove my point I could have used a tiefling with a tail and double barrel pistols, which removes the need for weapon cords. I mean take out Reckless Aim and add cluster shots get the rest of your magic items a +6 belt of DEX, a couple of Ioun Stones and you can double barrel attack every attack. That makes the damage 2d8+40+6d6 for 4 attacks that comes out to 8d8+160+24d6 for an average damage of 280 and that's going to be EVERY round.
Your Barbarian's damage depends on full attacks and 3 AoO per round. Do you know how often that actually happens? Very rarely, if ever. I have a friend who plays a Ranger Archer in PFS. She's 9th level so that means 24 pre made scenarios assuming no modules. In those 24 scenarios she has NEVER been hit by an attack. No monsters have ever targeted her. She's an archer she stands in the back and makes full attacks every round. When I play with her I usually use my Invulnerable Rager Barbarian. She out DPR's me by MILES because she can full attack every round, where I rarely get to. She actually doesn't use all of her attacks sometimes so other people can join the fight. I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.
That's where all your formulas are wrong you can't factor in how many more times a gunslinger will full attack more than a melee fighter, and it's A LOT. Consider this: How many threads start with "The Barbarian is ruining my game" and compare that to the Gunslinger threads.
At this point I realize we're never going to agree. I've played with gunslingers and know the damage they do, and how broken they are. I played through Kingmaker...
It has been my experience that when one person says X is broken and someone else has no problem with it the main difference is table playstyle.
PFS also does allow GM's too much room for strategy.
I have seen smite evil/paladins(particularly archerdins), full casters, summoners, and so on get complaints as if they were the worst things ever, and Paizo never should have made them. Others have no problems with them, even when optimized, even without using house rules to hold them back. "Broken" is subjective 99% of time.
Kingmaker is a terrible example to use since many hexes have only one combat per hex if you play directly by the book.
you cant reload with a tail, most problems of teh gunslinger come from poor knowledge of the basic mechanics of the gunslinger
No but you can switch hands as a free action. The poor knowledge of basic mechanics isn't mine.
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Kingmaker is a terrible example to use since many hexes have only one combat per hex if you play directly by the book.
What does that have to do with a gunslinger? That should have made my Kensai Magus seem even more powerful. Not only that, but the Gunslinger should be at another disadvantage because Kingmaker has a lot of wide open areas, more chances to get out of the first range increment so many people say is an actual limitation.
Undone,
Why are my GM's poor for not going after the back line, but yours are brilliant for letting the bad guys fall for the come and get me trick every time? You'd think the bad guys would figure it out after the first couple of times, but you get 3 a round? And remember I'm playing PFS, so my GM's come from all over the world, how many different GM's do you play with? I ask because I bet I have a greater cross section of GM's than you, making my experiences more like what would actually occur.
You keep bringing up 1 spell show me a single published enemy with that exact spell, and I'll start to see your point. How about a first level spell that can completely stop your barbarian: Create Pit. What about a 1 silver piece item forcing your barbarian to one attack per round: Caltrops.
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Kingmaker is a terrible example to use since many hexes have only one combat per hex if you play directly by the book.What does that have to do with a gunslinger? That should have made my Kensai Magus seem even more powerful. Not only that, but the Gunslinger should be at another disadvantage because Kingmaker has a lot of wide open areas, more chances to get out of the first range increment so many people say is an actual limitation.
Undone,
Why are my GM's poor for not going after the back line, but yours are brilliant for letting the bad guys fall for the come and get me trick every time? You'd think the bad guys would figure it out after the first couple of times, but you get 3 a round? And remember I'm playing PFS, so my GM's come from all over the world, how many different GM's do you play with? I ask because I bet I have a greater cross section of GM's than you, making my experiences more like what would actually occur.You keep bringing up 1 spell show me a single published enemy with that exact spell, and I'll start to see your point. How about a first level spell that can completely stop your barbarian: Create Pit. What about a 1 silver piece item forcing your barbarian to one attack per round: Caltrops.
Kingmaker also has a good number of enemies(animals) such as tigers that do not have a counter to ranged attacks.
Basically Kingmaker is an easy AP. You might get bad luck and roll up some trolls on the random encounter chart at level 1, but for the most part I don't think what gunslingers do in Kingmaker is going to do much to prove how powerful gunslingers are.
Once again you bring PFS GM's in to this when they are pretty much playing with their hands tied so their tactics won't be that different, or they should not be according to what I see in the PFS section.
I am not saying the gunslinger is weak. I am sure they do good damage since I had one in a game, but I have never seen a build that is broken.
I think the problem is GM's not willing to adjust tactics for new classes, or a class not meshing with their playstyle, much like the witch giving some GM's a hard time.
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Because my back line is permanently flying, mind blanked, and invisible at level 12 often with lead lined clothing to prevent detective spells. You're back line is on the ground, visible, and have little to no defensive abilities. I play with just under a dozen GM's (About 10 regularly) and about 8 of them challenge the back line regularly after tier 1-2 (Which challenges exactly no one). Risen from the sands is a good example of this. Basically around here most GM's actively seek out more difficult adventures to run.
Yeah you didn't really answer my question. What you're telling me is that all 10 of your GM's allow their bad guys to fall for "Come and Get Me" every round so that your Barbarian gets 3 AoO a round?
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you cant reload with a tail, most problems of teh gunslinger come from poor knowledge of the basic mechanics of the gunslingerNo but you can switch hands as a free action. The poor knowledge of basic mechanics isn't mine.
Last time I checked a tail is not a hand, i may be wrong tought.
_________________________________________________________________Cnetarian thats a fine trick indeed however it does require a generous interpretation on the dms part.
swift action recover pistol from ground with tail, holding it in tail
Benefit: You can use your tail to grab stowed items. While you cannot wield weapons with your tail, you can use it to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on your person as a swift action.
As such i guess is possible if your dm is ok with that if he considers a firearm "a small object", in which case if the whole world explodes because of the gunslinger i dont think it would be the players fault.
Funnily trought said interpretation you could theretically hold a gargantuan greatsword with your tail.
@cnetarian's drop pistol idea
Not bad for only two free actions. That is a tactic that is not hard to stop, BUT as a GM we don't want to impede on a player's fun too much.
This however is a problem a GM faces, and why some call certain things broken. They don't want to say "don't do that", but at the same time if the ____ is allowed it messes up their table.
When that pistol is on the ground it is an unattended object. AoE's by the rule damage anything in the area. Most GM's just don't track every little thing because it is not normally worth the trouble. Rather than say ____ is broken because you(general statement) don't want to put in extra work to deal with it, just don't allow it or admit it is not good for your group. I am sure there are other ways to deal with this. No, I am not advocating shutting down a character every time he is in combat just because you find a weakness, but for boss type fights, making him struggle is not a bad idea IMO.
Speaking for myself: As a rule of thumb I don't allow anything that I would feel bad seeing done to a player's character.
Disclaimer: I am not saying cnetarian's idea is broken or that the gunslinger is. I am only stating it shows proof of playstyle issues more than the gunslinger being broken.
Also many "broken" things that can be handled even if it makes our(GM's) jobs more difficult. Of course it does not help that everyone's idea of broken is not the same and how we view the game is based anecdotal evidence.
Broken to me is examples:
*will be a problem at a majority of tables<---across the board broken such as Pun-Pun(well not this bad, but you get the point)
*can't challenge this character without being so difficult as to kill the rest of the party. <---This is broken by playstyle/table. If at another table this character may fit in.
So instead of just saying "OMG it's too much", you(general statement) should probably just say, this is no good for my table. If you think it is too good for almost anyone then say why.
I did not see the post saying you can't pick things up off the ground with your tail. :)
flexible tails that can be used to carry items.
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Grasping Tail (Tiefling)
Your tail becomes more useful.Prerequisites: Tiefling.
Benefit: You can use your tail to grab stowed items. While you cannot wield weapons with your tail, you can use it to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on your person as a swift action.
Special: If you have the prehensile tail racial trait, you can use your tail to grab unattended items within 5 feet as a swift action as well as to grab stowed objects carried on your person; you can hold such objects with your tail, though you cannot manipulate them with your tail (other than to put them in your hand).
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At this point is pretty clear the gunslinger CAN be broken, by using very specific options, not reading the rules or not enforcing the rules such as misfires. Implying a class is broken because of the existance of very specfic combinations is taking it to the extreme.
It would be like saying "All wizards are broken" because sacred geomtry exists.
There are several archetypes which can completely avoid misfires at higher levels. I guess when I saw a Pistolero cut loose with 14 attacks in a single round for over 500 damage maybe it just gave me a bad impression of the class.
Either way I feel like touch attacks in general are a troublesome aspect of the game. I don't think that making it a little tougher to hit high AC monsters with them would really disenfranchise casters since they have a lot of other powerful options anyhow. Presumably the high BAB Gunslinger would still be able to score hits pretty easily unless you were taking a lot of attack penalties to overload your damage output.
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So was looking over the thread for the new Ranged book that just came out, check out the new weapon property in that book:
Cyclonic - Shields ranged ammo from wind effects.
There goes 3/4 of your argument right there.
As far as your barbarian, did you notice that the Cloud Giants had 15' reach? So all it would take is two of them to kill your barbarian. You charge the first one (we'll assume you have the charge lane and Beast Totems) and let's say you kill him. The second one pummels you from 15' away with his two normal attacks, and then when you go after him, he hits you with an AoO and you're dead. Meanwhile the gunslinger has unloaded 280 points of damage per round for a total of 560 points. So you see you're Barbarian just got owned, and it's not like I set up some unusual situation that could never happen. 2 monsters with reach is all it took. Your barbarian got 1 single full round action before he DIED. I didn't use some crazy tactics and even assumed the giants third iterative attack would miss, which it probably wouldn't given the barbarian's AC with come and get me. You complain about a wind spell negating a gunslinger (and even that's gone now), reach KILLED the barbarian.
I'm pretty much done here, you guys don't want to see it cool. It works in your games, great, but you're the minority. Look around at all the threads complaining about Archers. Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
Lets be honest: I call BS. I play a frigging gunslinger and I cannot outdamage the barbarian. As said two posts earlier: I get to only 70 DPR, even against an AC of 15! And I do not pull my punches there...
Against AC 10, assuming RS and DA:
Attack: +14/+14/+9/+4 (BAB +11, Dex +6, Rifle +1, Weapon Focus +1, Rapid Shot -2, Deadly Aim -3)
Damage: 1D10 + 14 (6 from DA, 6 from Dex, 1 from Rifle +1, 1 from Weapon Training)
You're probably getting point blank in there too for +1 to hit and damage.
So, average damage on every hit ist 19.5. Against a AC of 10 (highly unlikely)
The bolded part you stopped being honest. Look the the CR 11 monsters. The vast majority of monsters have a touch AC of 9 or less, but okay, I'll give you a 10
I hit every shot but the last with a 95% success rate and this one with a 75% success rate. The DPR formula puts me at 21 pts per damage for the first three attacks (because of the high crit modifier) and 17 pts for the third attack.
Added, this is around 80 damage.
With point blank it's an 80% and 1d10+15 You're going to hit with 4 shots 80% of the time and that will average 82 points of damage.
At Level 10, our barbarian did something like 2D6 + 22, average is 29 pts of damage. With an attack bonus of +20. And with pounce, he often has a full attack. If he is not put down by a crit, he does around 60-70 damage per round. With two attacks.
Why is his to hit 6 points higher than yours? The only difference should be your Rapid Shot gives you an extra -2 so, assuming same building style he'd only be +2 compared to you. Power Attack is -3 so that equals deadly aim, where are the bonuses he's getting you're not? And if you look, your average damage is 82, his is 60-70 and that's IF he gets a full attack.
So, from my game experience: The theoretical damage of my level 11 gunslinger is lower than the actual damage of a level 10 barbarian, even considering a very low touch AC.
First, I've already proven that isn't true 82 vs. 70. Even that 20% of the time you miss on your last shot, you're still getting an average of 65.5 damage.
Second, what happens when the baddie is in water? What about rough terrain in front of the baddie? What if the baddie has reach? All of these screw the barbarian, but have absolutely no effect on you.And add to that the high probability of getting shafted with a Save or Suck. The lowest save of my barbaric friend is higher than my highest save (Ref 17 vs Ref 16).
Again why are his saves better? A gunslinger gets high Fort AND high Ref, a Barbarian only gets high Fort.
But hey. Gunslingers are so OP. I'm sure that I am just a bad player with no amount of system mastery. Sure.
It's kinda what it's sounding like.
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So was looking over the thread for the new Ranged book that just came out, check out the new weapon property in that book:
Cyclonic - Shields ranged ammo from wind effects.There goes 3/4 of your argument right there.
As far as your barbarian, did you notice that the Cloud Giants had 15' reach? So all it would take is two of them to kill your barbarian. You charge the first one (we'll assume you have the charge lane and Beast Totems) and let's say you kill him. The second one pummels you from 15' away with his two normal attacks, and then when you go after him, he hits you with an AoO and you're dead. Meanwhile the gunslinger has unloaded 280 points of damage per round for a total of 560 points. So you see you're Barbarian just got owned, and it's not like I set up some unusual situation that could never happen. 2 monsters with reach is all it took. Your barbarian got 1 single full round action before he DIED. I didn't use some crazy tactics and even assumed the giants third iterative attack would miss, which it probably wouldn't given the barbarian's AC with come and get me. You complain about a wind spell negating a gunslinger (and even that's gone now), reach KILLED the barbarian.
I'm pretty much done here, you guys don't want to see it cool. It works in your games, great, but you're the minority. Look around at all the threads complaining about Archers. Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.
Did you notice all Ghost monsters touch AC is higher than its flatfooted AC? So all it would take is one of them to kill a gunslinger.You attack him and he s#%%s on you. The second one attacks from 20' away with his two normal attacks, and then when you go after him, he charges you and you're dead. Meanwhile the Barbarian can have up to 24/- dr s#%*ting on the ghost wimpy atttacks. So you see your Gunslinger just got owned, and it's not like I set up some unusual situation that could never happen. One ghost is all it took. Your Gunslinger got 1 single full round action before he DIED. I didn't use some crazy tactics and even assumed some undead have death attacks or magical abiltities. Your complain about the gunslinger being too powerful, a GHOST KILLED the gunslinger.
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Did you notice all Ghost monsters touch AC is higher than its flatfooted AC? So all it would take is one of them to kill a gunslinger.You attack him and he s+$+s on you. The second one attacks from 20' away with his two normal attacks, and then when you go after him, he charges you and you're dead. Meanwhile the Barbarian can have up to 24/- dr s%$$ting on the ghost wimpy atttacks. So you see your Gunslinger just got owned, and it's not like I set up some unusual situation that could never happen. One ghost is all it...
Okay I accept your challenge, you go through and count all the monsters that are incorporeal, and I'll count all the ones who have reach, then we can determine which is more common.
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Did you notice all Ghost monsters touch AC is higher than its flatfooted AC? So all it would take is one of them to kill a gunslinger.You attack him and he s+$+s on you. The second one attacks from 20' away with his two normal attacks, and then when you go after him, he charges you and you're dead. Meanwhile the Barbarian can have up to 24/- dr s%$$ting on the ghost wimpy atttacks. So you see your Gunslinger just got owned, and it's not like I set up some unusual situation that could never happen. One ghost is all it...Okay I accept your challenge, you go through and count all the monsters that are incorporeal, and I'll count all the ones who have reach, then we can determine which is more common.
You know "ghost" is a templte right? And so is "Giant", the comparison would have no point
....8 * 82 = 65.6
The barbarians average 70 is higher.
By 4.4 points. Now factor in the number, very HIGH number of times the barbarian can't full attack, versus the number of times, very FEW number of times a gunslinger can't full attack. You can't really factor that can ya? That's what I'm talking about.
You're not reading: Yes your barbarian kills one. Great you got one, yay you. However the other giant with reach, kills you before you make a single attack against him. Your come and get me doesn't do squat against someone you can't hit. In the first round, when it's the giants turn to go, you're most likely dead. IF you want to assume a +12 iterative can't hit your crap come and get me AC, then it will take until round 2 when your barbarian tries to attack the second monster and gets hit with an AoO. You're raging killing DPS'ing barbarian got 1 full attack in an encounter with 2 CR 11 monsters before he DIED. I can totally see how powerful that build is o_O
And again, you can all blame it on poor gm'ing, but I can use the exact same argument. If your GM's can't stop a charge, they're poor.
ElementXX,
Okay to be fair we'll leave templates out. You count all the monsters that are incorporeal, and I'll count all the ones with reach, as written in the bestiary... If it isn't starting to dawn on you how ridiculous that argument is you're not trying.
Jeez fellas, I'm the only one arguing but I'm not making this crap up. LOOK AT THE FORUMS. People are ALWAYS complaining about how powerful archers are. It's one of the most powerful builds in the game because you can always full attack. If you are actually playing the game like you say you are, and you haven't noticed this, you're not really playing the game.
Not really no
Great argument. Ironclad, if completely wrong.
Let your barbarian be Enlarged, that gives him a 10' reach, and still not enough to keep from getting pummeled without being able to do a darn thing about it.
The Gunslinger isn't dead because he's got distance, the giants are too busy killing the barbarian, and when they're done with the barbarian he'll just use his no save automatically works confusion spell, or his no save, no CMD, automatically works trip attack.
Assuming he doesn't have any extra items he'll easily have a 20 WIS by this level (14 to start +6 headband) gives him 5 Grit. 4d8+80+12d6 per giant outta kill them both in 2 rounds. That's a single double barrel pistol: 1d8+20+3d6 per shot, they each get 4 of those from two attacks, spends a grit point on each. He'll use 4 grit in two rounds, still have one, kill them both, get two back and only be down 1 until he destroys the next thing the party comes across.
Now before anyone gets confused, I'm not talking about the gunslinger called shot trip, I'm talking about the Pistolero Twin Shot Knockdown deed.
Yeah people forget about that a lot. They do so much damage they don't need it very often, but gunslingers are also the best trip and disarm artists in the game too.
A lot of GMs forget the effects of cover. +4 AC for having someone or something even slightly in the way means you are now looking at an AC of 13. If it's not within your first range increment (and burning grit like crazy on Deadeye), you are looking at more range penalties.
Speaking of Deadeye. You burn 1 grit per range increment you want your touch AC attack to go over... per attack.
Signature Deed would allow doubling your Touch AC range as long as you have 1 grit, but even then it's still only 40' max with one-handed weapon.
Grit is not a huge resource to burn.
A lot of GMs forget the effects of cover. +4 AC for having someone or something even slightly in the way means you are now looking at an AC of 13. If it's not within your first range increment (and burning grit like crazy on Deadeye), you are looking at more range penalties.
Speaking of Deadeye. You burn 1 grit per range increment you want your touch AC attack to go over... per attack.
Signature Deed would allow doubling your Touch AC range as long as you have 1 grit, but even then it's still only 40' max with one-handed weapon.
Grit is not a huge resource to burn.
Seeking, Improved Precise Shot, both take care of cover. Not that it really matters, compare a 25 Regular AC to a 9 touch AC. You could have 4 of your party members all blocking your shot and you'd only be down to the same hit chance as them. Being SAD and full BAB, you'll probably still hit more often... and of course that's worst case scenario.
In my experience fights are rarely over 30' let alone 40'. With party members blocking charge lines, and having automatically working trips, there's really no danger. Not to mention when you can pump out 280* points of damage per round every round, you'll get most of the kill shots and make your grit up in no time.
*So you know I'm not exaggerating: 1d8+20+3d6 per shot = 35 damage per shot. 4 shots with rapid = 140. + 4 shots with the double barrel = 280
If he's got distance he's hitting real AC. Not the touch ac you worship.
Not at 30' it's not. You see 30' is greater than the giants 15' of reach.
Suddenly the poor fire giant ends up dead prior to its last iterative because it's HP is too low to survive 60x3. It also has only a 45% chance to make the dazing assault save. Meaning it should never get a full attack based on math.
Except not, because the reach is 15', I was using a cloud giant.
So 20 wis is the minimum to equal superstitious at 12 unless you're human and FCB Then you're just out of luck because your wis will not be high enough. The gunslinger has inferior saves.
Great, so we'll drop STR to 9, CON to 12, and make his WIS 16, now he has a 22... and oh yeah, he's only spent 33k on a gun and 36k on a belt, that gives him plenty for a cloak of resistance, and you've noticed I'm not using Haste at all right?
After the 3rd round when you're dead it is MUCH higher.
I used giant because it was a typical monster found at CR 11. I will say again, the Giant doesn't get close because he's prone. Remember automatically succeeding trip attacks Pistoleros get? 20' away, out of reach of the 15' reach, puts both giants on their butts and takes half their hit points away, second round does the same thing... except he doesn't need to put them on their butts because their dead. Gunslinger didn't take a point of damage.
What if the giants go first on your Barbarian? There's 6 shots to the face you just took and you're dead before the battle begins. Gunslinger's AC is higher than yours and the Giants, so no problem for him... It really starts to suck for the very limited melee barbarian MUCH more than it does for the RANGED Gunslinger when we play the "What If game" but really that's all we're doing at this point. You will never see reason, that Ranged will get more attacks than melee (I really thought that was pretty straight forward for anyone who's actually played the game) and you just want to argue.
As a final thought, the reason people don't bat an eye when the Barbarian hits like a tank is because he rarely gets to do it. Full attack actions and pounces are so hard to come by with any regularity people cheer when it actually goes off. The reason people hate ranged so much, is because it ALWAYS goes off.
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Jodokai, you are not getting the point. I mocked your example because you deliberately set a completely convinient set to make a barbarian look bad. First considering said barbarian is fighting 2 CR 11 monsters completely ALONE with complete disregard of any strategy. This is a DEADLY CR 13 encounter vs a 11 level PC.
Second you assume the barbarian WIL NOT have any way to deal with reach, will be a vanilla Barbarian with no optimization or high DR.
But also the comparison is AN OPTIMIZED GUNSLINGER.
You are comparing a schrdinger gunslinger who is also a pistolero and a musket master, has range , damage , ignoresmisfires, doesnt multiclass, has good scores and enough system mastery and you are comparing to vanilla barbarian.