Will Saving Throw in Protection from Evil.


Rules Questions


I got a question on when the will saving throw in the spell's stats comes in to play:

Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance no; see text

1. Is the will saving throw something that the target of the spell gets in case in he wants to resist the benefits of protection from evil?

2. Or any evil creature attempting to control the protected creature or an evil summoned creature attempting bodily contact, get a will save to bypass the target's benefits from the spell? If so does this include the +2 to AC and Saves?

Let me know, thanks so much!


Number 1.

When a wizard casts this spell on someone that person can say "No, I don't want to be protected from evil forces!" and they can try and make a saving throw to resist the spell.


I agree number 1.

However, something came up during our last game which isn't something I've thought of before.

Oracle tried to cast protection from evil on the fighter who was mind controlled by dominate monster.

The fighter rolls really high and passes the save(which I thought at the time meant the extra save vs dominate monster from protection from evil). Then the dm says so he saves vs protection from evil and the spell doesn't work, as he was instructed to resist any spells put on him not by the aboleth that is controlling him.

Most of the players are like uh...I guess that's right.

I mean it seems right I've just never played it that way. It surely makes charm and dominate spells more nasty. Especially if you happen to get a high will save character under control.

Are we missing something?


Anyone know if that is right or wrong?


Lemartes wrote:
Anyone know if that is right or wrong?

From what you wrote it seems the GM did exactly the right thing. Had he not given that specific order or said something along the lines of 'all your old friends are enemies' though I think the character would have accepted it.

Dominate puts them under almost complete control of the enemy. It does not make them insta-forget all their friends.


So possibly not for charm person?

Thanks.


Lemartes wrote:

I agree number 1.

However, something came up during our last game which isn't something I've thought of before.

Oracle tried to cast protection from evil on the fighter who was mind controlled by dominate monster.

The fighter rolls really high and passes the save(which I thought at the time meant the extra save vs dominate monster from protection from evil). Then the dm says so he saves vs protection from evil and the spell doesn't work, as he was instructed to resist any spells put on him not by the aboleth that is controlling him.

Most of the players are like uh...I guess that's right.

I mean it seems right I've just never played it that way. It surely makes charm and dominate spells more nasty. Especially if you happen to get a high will save character under control.

Are we missing something?

The initial saving throw is for those unwilling to accept the benefits of the spell. If they succeed on that saving throw, then they are not affected by the spell, which includes its benefits.

If the GM made the Aboleth command the dominated Fighter to not accept any aid from his (former) party members, this would include harmless spells being cast on him, similar to a Superstitious Raging Barbarian, so the dominated Fighter would first save against the spell's effects taking place.

Even if the Fighter did fail the first saving throw, he'd only get a chance to remove the domination effect (temporarily; it returns after the PFE expires), as the saving throw is required if they are already dominated/charmed/etc. If they weren't and the Aboleth attempted to use a Dominate/Charm spell, then it would fail automatically.

The full rules text:

Protection from Evil wrote:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.

Hate to say it, but the GM is right. He can have the Aboleth command the dominated Fighter to refuse aid given to him by so-and-so, including harmless spells. All I can say is, come more prepared. The Fighters should always have Protection from Evil up, especially in the higher levels. It's a 1st level spell, what else are you using those slots for?


Thanks.

To reiterate no one was really arguing against the DM I just wanted to be sure.

The oracle was not with us at the time we faced the Aboleth. Player was absent. Which was under water and the dm ruled you can't take potions under water unless you have an air bubble around your head or something. Not that we knew there was an Aboleth around until people started getting controlled.


The way I'm reading Dominate Monster/Creature is that it's one command at a time, which would mean if the fighter was commanded to ignore aid, he wouldn't be much other use to the Abolith. But I'm not positive on that reading of it.


Lemartes wrote:

Thanks.

To reiterate no one was really arguing against the DM I just wanted to be sure.

The oracle was not with us at the time we faced the Aboleth. Player was absent. Which was under water and the dm ruled you can't take potions under water unless you have an air bubble around your head or something. Not that we knew there was an Aboleth around until people started getting controlled.

That I'd disagree with. You can put your thumb or whatever over the bottle and then remove it when you put it to your mouth. You lose only maybe a few drops, and that's something that's used to identify a potion via taste.

That being said, you're not using your standard action to maintain your breath (which is required to make a Constitution check to keep doing so), and thusly you'd be consider drowning.

@GreenMandar: One command at a time isn't listed as a limitation in the book, only that the target doesn't easily go against its nature. James Jacobs made a post regarding the RAI of "against its nature."

James Jacobs wrote:
As for what constitutes "against its nature," that varies from creature to creature. For a PC, I would say that forcing a PC to attack another PC would normally be against a PC's nature and would allow a new saving throw (unless, of course, that PC has already displayed a propensity for attacking other PCs). For most monsters, it would depend. A lot of monsters are just violent anyway and attacking others of their kind is normal. It's left vague deliberately so each time it comes up, the GM gets to interpret it as needed for the specific target in question.


Oh those that were mind controlled got another save for that.

My character passed the fighter did not. :)

He is currently bound and being carried by the Oracle. ;)

Grand Lodge

It sounds like your GM really knows his stuff.

For what it's worth.. The potion sponge's description says it can be used underwater unlike a normal potion. Now I don't know where that rule is, but it does imply that potions can't be used underwater. So that's where he's getting that from.


I'm aware of the potion sponge thing in fact it was me that told him about it.

Granted potion sponges seem kind of stupid at the depth we are at. ;)

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