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whether or not the Rogue is currently under powered or overpowered is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion.
The question as it stands is this.
If you could change one thing about the Rogue what would it be.
Highly subjective sure, but I'm interested in hearing what people would do.
For myself personally these would be my top 3 single changes keeping in mind you can only make one change you can certainly suggest more than one.
1.) Rogue has a full BAB
or
2.) Rogue levels can count as levels from another other class you multiclass in for the purposes of effective level on abilities. (Can only apply to one other class)
or
3.) Rogue talents include one talent (that can be taken once) that can pick one feature/ability from every other class e.g. discovery, hex, revelation, rage etc
Or perhaps your one of those people who wouldn't change anything about the Rogue in which case by all means let us hear your Rogue Love ;)
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I would buff every rogue talent to the point where they are as good as a feat, and add new rogue talents that don't suck.
EDIT: Like change most of the "wunce pur dey" rogue talents to almost "whenever you feel like it", advanced talents that turn a bad save into a good save, maybe one that makes your BAB treated as being equal to your rogue level for the purpose of attack bonus (but not for gaining iterative attacks), combine a few rogue talents so they don't suck.
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Better rogue talents. Less "once a day" more "as an action".
I had a thought about changing sneak attack dice to precision dice. Half the progression, but have the precision dice add d6s to both to-hit and damage rolls against "vulnerable" foes.
"Vulnerable" would be a condition defined as a foe that is hampered in anyway via movement reduction (even from armor), dex denied, flat footed, feinted, grappled, prone, ect.
I would also like for dex to be added to damage rolls as precision damage against vulnerable foes.
Lastly, I would want to offer the option that whenever you threaten a critical hit, you could forgo the conformation roll to instead as an AOO strike the foe again for just precision damage. (picture it as rending with the weapon or twisting the knife)
Obviously I wouldn't have the 30ft or concealment restrictions. There are already feats and items that get around that issue, you might as well bake into the class instead of having "mandatory options".
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I'd just combine "martial skill guy" with "martial warrior guy." Give the revamped Fighter/Rogue combo access to talents that can be traded for feats or sneak attack. Give all the other stuff for both classes, including skills and weapon/armor expertises.
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Throw my hat in the "change most of the once per day stuff to at-will". The restriction is both unnecessary and unnecessarily dissociated.
In addition to some of the suggestions above, I would cut way down on the generally available Dex-to-Damage Feats (including the most recent broken Slashing Grace Feat that is associated with the ACG even though not in it). Then give the Rogue a Dex-to-Damage Class Feature that scales with Sneak Attack (which itself is sort of an indirect Dex-to-Damage ability) and add supplementary Rogue Talents that let the Rogue feint better and make opponents Flat Footed better (the Rogue already has some of this, but apparently not enough) to get more opportunities to set up Sneak Attack (for ranged Sneak Attack, also make it easier to increase sniping range). Also let higher level Rogues simultaneously apply multiple Talents that modify Sneak Attack (sort of like an Inquisitor becoming able to apply more than one Judgment at once). When it is hard for most classes to get Dex to Damage, the Rogue's specific abilities to do this becomes more worthwhile.
Make the same things available to the Ninja, and make a subset of the same things available to the Slayer and Swashbuckler, since they (especially the Swashbuckler) depend upon these. (Alternatively, rebuild the Swashbuckler as a Rogue Archetype.)
Getting Dex to Damage for everybody else should not be impossible, but it should take some doing.
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I would not change just one thing. I would change several things.
I would give the rogue the ability to get uses out of skills that others could not.
I would improved the rogue talents.
I would find a way to get sneak attack, even if it were limited times per day without a flanking partner. Actually I might just get rid of sneak attack, and give a more consistent bonus to attacks and damage.
I would give the rogue a good will save.
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Give them wizard spells to 6th level or such. Seriously unless you do something like that vivisectionist's, investigators, and bards will make more use of them then a rogue.
And with spells we have truestrike, blur, etc etc to make them a little less squishy and better able to hit and do that SA.
EDIT: added a word for clarity
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Change the Rogue's role in combat from DPR to debuffing.
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i would not make one change to the rogue, i would make several
1. i would Gestalt Rogue and Fighter Wholesale with the Exception that sneak attack is replaced with the Swashbucklers precise strike deed
2. i would bring rogue talents up to the level of rage powers
3. Ninja archetype wouldn't exist as a standalone class because its stuff would be handed out as options for the rogue
4. i would add an intelligence based guile pool for powering ninja tricks and daily limited rogue talents while turning most of the weaker talents into free passive or active deeds
5. Rogue Talents would be on Odd levels and Combat Feats on even levels
6. Weapon Training, weapon mastery and the Weapon Specific Feats would be altered to apply to a whole weapon group and as long as you had guile, shared with every weapon group you had weapon training or weapon focus in
7. Weapon Finesse and other Feats that add an alternate replacement stat to either attack rolls or damage rolls, apply to both attack and damage rolls while allowing you to choose what weapon groups they applied to.
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If I could change just one thing about the Rogue?
*looks at copy of the Advanced Class Guide*
*scans and prints the pages detailing the Slayer*
*pastes said pages over the Rogue pages in the CRB*
That about does it. :P
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Change the Rogue's role in combat from DPR to debuffing.
The rogue is really not a designed to be the DPR guy. He is more like a secondary combatant with non-magical utility. Thematically the rogue is the "fixer", but without magic and no EX that looks magical, and no boost to his combat abilities he just falls behind the other classes.
Add a way to convert skills into combat ability. Combat Swipe is good, but that should be a baseline Rogue Talent, not an Advanced one.
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I would give it the Arcane Trickster's Impromptu Sneak Attack ability usable 1/2 level/day and change the rogue talents so they would give skills additional uses that magic can pull off. Ex: "The rogue can run along walls up to their speed with an acrobatics check DC=10 + 4/5' run across the wall"; "The rogue can create obstructions to hamper pursuit, whenever the rogue moves, if they pass by any furniture or items they may scatter these items as a free action behind them to cause the area to be considered difficult terrain and require a DC 10+Int+1/2 Rogue level reflex save for those following in pursuit or they become entangled."
Option 2 would be very cool. Offers nice combinations with other classes.
Would make Rogue mostly a dip class though ^^
Rogue talent every level.
Ruyan.
A single change would not be enough.
I would:
* Give more skill points per level.
* Give Skill Focus in a rogue class skill at 1st level and Weapon Finesse at 2nd level.
* Improve all the rogue talents, possibly including some that give 1/2 level bonus to a skill.
* Give a way to get bonus for combat maneuvering (most likely based on acrobatics) that aids their ability to hit in melee.
* Fix the sneak rules.
* Structure it so that most of the archetypes were just selections made while going up levels in rogue.
* Not allow Ninja and other classes to steal all their talents.
* Give bonus feats from a list of potential rogue feats. Include things like Stealthy, Athletic, some of the other +2 to two skills.
I'd try to find a way to give them a unique and relevant schtick, probably by completely reworking Rogue Talents or introducing something more akin to an Oracle's Mystery ability, but aimed at Rogues.
-TimD
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Just give them full BAB.
Done.
Frankly - if Pathfinder were to be re-build from the ground up instead of based upon 3.5, I think that each class should have both a BAB and a BDB (base defense bonus) similar to d20 modern. In that context, a rogue's BAB would be at least as high as a fighter's if not higher, it'd just have a significantly lower BDB & HP.
If I could change just one thing about the Rogue?
*looks at copy of the Advanced Class Guide*
*scans and prints the pages detailing the Slayer*
*pastes said pages over the Rogue pages in the CRB*
That about does it. :P
Yeah - this. Pretty much what Paizo needs to do with most of the CRB - go back through it and bring it into line with all the new archetypes, feats, traits, mechanics, etc., etc., they have added with each new book.
The Slayer is the Rogue evolved.
I'd fix talents.
Most of them should be at will.
I'd do this.
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Like others have said, add rogue talents (or rogue talent trees) that actually allow the class to be the best at certain things - traps, sneaking, party face-man, damage, being a sneaky little bugger, etc.
As it stands right now, other class archetypes can out-do the rogue in every rogue-like category.
My personal favorite: When making an attack against an opponent that is flanked or flat-footed, the rogue adds half their class level to the attack (minimum 1)
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The slayer outdoes the combat role of a rogue.
The investigator outdoes the rest of the roles for a rogue.
The existence of those two classes leaves the rogue obsolete. It's bandied and trite, but it's true. The class now exists to fill a niche 'between' investigators and slayers, and there's "not a lot of there there". Whenever Pathfinder 2.0 comes about, the rogue should probably be retired (or have investigator and/or slayer renamed to "Rogue" to provide that nod of continuity through the editions)
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Change the Rogue's role in combat from DPR to debuffing.The rogue is really not a designed to be the DPR guy. He is more like a secondary combatant with non-magical utility. Thematically the rogue is the "fixer", but without magic and no EX that looks magical, and no boost to his combat abilities he just falls behind the other classes.
He has utility abilities out of combat, sure, but in-combat? All he does is damage. The only combat related boosts he gets involve sneak attack die; whether this was intended or not, when initiative is rolled the rogue's role is to hit stuff right now. He's terrible at it, of course, and it's frankly not very thematic for a Rogue to be competing with a Barbarian.
Which is why I reworked the Rogue to revolve around the dirty trick maneuver...
Hmm, several options.
Sneak attack can affect ANY enemy as long as they are flanked in some way. (so doing away with most of the limitations on it, including those creatures which are immune to it.
OR
All Rogue skills have their skill bonus doubled (specifically skill bonus, so doesn't include other bonuses)
OR
All Rogue skills have their stat bonus doubled (so, less powerful then above)
OR
Talents are at will (like this idea)
I don't feel Rogues need full BAB as they are not supposed to be a combat class in my opinion.
I'd just give the Rogue a second good Savings Throw progression. Maybe the choice of which one other then Reflex. Of course I'd do the same for any class that only has one good Savings Throw progression.
I wouldnt mind seeing Rogues go full BAB. I like the idea of the Magic Rogue Talents, but I just wish they scaled better while still being a Rogue. I think that would help the Rogue, especially if they had access to higher level spells earlier. I think that might help a bit.
Plus I do like the idea of the Dex to Damage for Rogue only, as well as expanded talents and getting one per level.
It's a shame that one of the iconic classes got so left behind by other classes Paizo pushed out.
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I wouldnt mind seeing Rogues go full BAB. I like the idea of the Magic Rogue Talents, but I just wish they scaled better while still being a Rogue. I think that would help the Rogue, especially if they had access to higher level spells earlier. I think that might help a bit.
Plus I do like the idea of the Dex to Damage for Rogue only, as well as expanded talents and getting one per level.
It's a shame that one of the iconic classes got so left behind by other classes Paizo pushed out.
Two of the iconic classes, really - rogue and fighter.
Rogue talents are where the help is really needed. The rest of the class has a few issues, but they could be fairly easily resolved if the talents were decent. There should be no 'once/day' talents, it should be either 'always-on' or 'once per round/encounter'. If you REALLY need to restrict them to daily usage, give them a pool similar to a ninjas. They should also make the rogue freaking awesome at skill checks. Things like what 5E does, where you can eventually roll a d20 on a skill check and just declare the result a 10 if you rolled less than that on the die. In fact, skills and such are very nearly ALL the rogue talents should do. Move the talents which modify sneak attack to another list they get to choose from at level 3 and then once again every 4 levels thereafter. That way, you don't have to choose between upping your SA damage or actually doing cool skill-based things.
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If I could change one, they'd have a full BAB.
If I could change two things, they'd also have better talents.
Thankfully, the rogue will get reworked in Pathfinder Unchained.
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I don't feel Rogues need full BAB as they are not supposed to be a combat class in my opinion.
Of note - full BAB would still put them a few points behind most of the front-liners.
Fighters get weapon training (and eventually GWF)
Barbarians get rage
Paladins get smite/spells
Rangers get favored enemy/spells
Heck - even a Slayer (in many ways its baseline is a rogue with full BAB) gets studied target to increase their attack beyond just full BAB.
And frankly - in Pathfinder every class should be a combat class to some degree.
Altho I like the class, I do agree that the "once per day" talents need to be at least 3Xday+ stat, like Wizard, etc abilities.
See this interesting Thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r4kj?Possible-cool-new-rogue-talents#1
The Rogue seems like it's trying to be both the skill and trick king and the assassin.
The ACG Slayer has become what the assassin-aspect of the Rogue should have been, do no problems on that front.
I'd actually prefer if they came up with a version of the Rogue sans sneak attack. Something like the NPC Expert class, just with enough extra goodies to justify being a PC class. Something like the Factotum of the Archaeologist archetype of the Bard, just less magic.
I had one idea for a character meant to push the boundary for non-combat. Not anti-combat, just an exercise in a character whose primary contribution is neither combat nor spells. Everyone else is fighting and this guy is deciphering the ancient text, or jury-rigging the final stages of a trap to lay low all the baddies. And yes, the Investigator seems to qualify, as extracts aren't quite as easy to use as spells, but he's still using magic.
I'd like to see the Rogue, the Thirf, the Scoundrel, that doesn't moonlight as a killer, one that's actually viable.
if you can't do combat you're not viable is how the game works. Since a lot of the time a lot of the game is about combat. If you don't do combat then your party is a man down from the beginning.
And it doesn't matter very much how many skills you get, it's how big of a bonus you get to them. Sorcerers make good faces because cha is a main stat and the get bonuses to some face skills. the rogue will not be as good the sorcerer in those skills if the sorcerer cares about them. so I guess the rogue can backup face if you need that. This is why people say the rogue isn't even a good skills guy. Other people get a lot of skills, but they also get boosts to those skills, and are reliable fighters as well.
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I would just make all the advanced talents available as regular talents, and then make a set of truly advanced talents for post-10th that are even more powerful.
If you could change one thing about the Rogue what would it be.
Its existence.
Remove it from reality, replace it with the Slayer retroactively.
{. . .} Also let higher level Rogues simultaneously apply multiple Talents that modify Sneak Attack (sort of like an Inquisitor becoming able to apply more than one Judgment at once). {. . .}
While we're at it, also let higher level Rogues apply multiple Dirty Tricks simultaneously.
{. . .} (Alternatively, rebuild the Swashbuckler as a Rogue Archetype.) {. . .}
Actually, the Advanced Player's Guide started to do this, but it seems awfully incomplete.
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If you could change one thing about the Rogue what would it be.Its existence.
Remove it from reality, replace it with the Slayer retroactively.
Is this really helping? OK, you want to play a Slayer rather than a Rogue. So, go ahead- play a Slayer. Why does the existence of the Rogue stop you?
Design Manager
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Build debuffs directly into the sneak attack progression, kind of like the 3.5 Lurk. Make sure some of those debuffs help facilitate continuing to apply sneak attack to your subsequent hits, and others impact enemy accuracy to help with the Rogue's squishiness. Make it a general pool so you can customize your sneak; for example, a Rogue with 10 sneak attack die could spend 3 to stagger, 2 to make the opponent flat-footed against his next attack, and 5 on d6 damage boosts. And don't make that talents, just build it directly into the sneak attack feature for the Rogue and let talents serve to round out and enhance the class.
Speaking of, if I got two things I could change, the second would be overhauling talents to make them more viable, remove 1/day restrictions, and maybe use them as a venue for elevating skills to be more competitive at higher levels, like a talent that lets the Rogue gain scaling sensory modes like blindsense and tremorsense based on his ranks in Perception.
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There's no fixing the Rogue.
Well, let me clarify - it's been fixed. Any fixes now will just make it more like a Slayer. (Best combat rogue) or more like an Investigator (Best skill monkey rogue) Now, yes, I understand people are like, "But that's a Slayer now! We need to fix the Rogue!"
Why bother? It's a waste of intellectual time and, if it were implemented, a waste of print space. You have two very good classes that fill your Rogue role. Three if you count the Bard, but for flavor's sake, the Slayer and Investigator ARE closer. Besides the name and being better at everything, what REALLY differentiates a Slayer from a Rogue? A few things technically. Nothing conceptually.
And really, other fixes are just going to make it do (more) things other classes do better, anyway.
Combat feats? That's a fighter.
Debuffs? That's a Bard, and a Witch.
Take out Dex-to-Damage for other classes and make it specific to the rogue? Admission the only fix is to gimp other classes.
There are a lot of sacred cows that need to be slaughtered for every new iteration of the 3.PF rules, and the Rogue is chief among them. Rip every wasted paragraph that deals with the Rogue out. Or rip out the Slayer and put that statblock over the old Rogue. Or take Arcane Trickster out of PrC, make it a 1-20 base class, and boom - new "rogue".
Experiment:
Make an even multiclass of slayer and investigator
Compare that to a straight class rogue
Which is better?
It's not the rogue, but I see no reason that the class could not be fix such that the rogue would be better. It sits in the middle of slayer and investigator. It could be good at doing that.
In fact I would gestalt fighter and rogue. Leave the result be the only totally non-magical non-supernatural class, but the absolutely best at anything non-magic: plenty of feats, plenty of talents, 2 good saves, evasion, good HD, full bab, combat training, sneak attack, trap-finding, best skill points... but still, no magic or supernatural.
Call the resulting class "the hero".
Leave to the choice in skills and feats the specialization in scouting or fighting or meatshielding.
The warriors would benefit by being useful out of combat, and the scouts would benefit from being actually good in a fight.
After all, if all those that claims that without magic no class is competitive are right, it will still not be an overpowered class... only slightly more resourceful and less fragile.
if you can't do combat you're not viable is how the game works. Since a lot of the time a lot of the game is about combat. If you don't do combat then your party is a man down from the beginning.
And it doesn't matter very much how many skills you get, it's how big of a bonus you get to them. Sorcerers make good faces because cha is a main stat and the get bonuses to some face skills. the rogue will not be as good the sorcerer in those skills if the sorcerer cares about them. so I guess the rogue can backup face if you need that. This is why people say the rogue isn't even a good skills guy. Other people get a lot of skills, but they also get boosts to those skills, and are reliable fighters as well.
So the one thing I'd change about the Rogue ends up being a fundamental change to the game's paradigm. I'm fine with that. But this sort of concept exists in fantasy and sci fi literature, and I think the game would only benefit from reflecting that.
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Is this really helping? OK, you want to play a Slayer rather than a Rogue. So, go ahead- play a Slayer. Why does the existence of the Rogue stop you?
If you could change one thing about the Rogue what would it be.Its existence.
Remove it from reality, replace it with the Slayer retroactively.
In the immortal words of Raphael, "I'm not trying to help."
Because some people look at the Slayer, compare it to the rogue, go OMG Banhammer.
A question was asked, I answered. You don't like it, tough gorgon droppings.