Benchak the Nightstalker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
Greylurker |
15 people marked this as a favorite. |
honestly it really undermines a lot of who he is.
This is a man who in University invented a machine to open a portal to Hell so he could rescue the soul of his mother from the Devil. A Machine who's failure he blames Richards for. A Man who keeps his horribly scarred face asa reminder of his hatred. A Man who honestly beleives he can make the world a better place but only if he forces it to it's knees first. A Man who has mastered Science and Magic and who can bring even Superman to the ground (DC/Marvel crossover it was awesome)
The guy is a bigger than life style villain and they want to make him into an angry blogger.
It's like down scaleing Darth Vader into an abusive gym teacher
Sissyl |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Meh. Doctor Doom is an authority figure. RL authority figures don't like the sheeple casting authority figures of any sort as villains or problems. Thus, Doom gets remade as an anti-authoritarian villain. Big surprise. Expect the trend to continue. The Brood Queen becomes a devout Amnesty International supporter. The Red Skull becomes a civil rights lawyer. Magneto becomes an intelligence agency whistleblower...
Aranna |
Meh. Doctor Doom is an authority figure. RL authority figures don't like the sheeple casting authority figures of any sort as villains or problems. Thus, Doom gets remade as an anti-authoritarian villain. Big surprise. Expect the trend to continue. The Brood Queen becomes a devout Amnesty International supporter. The Red Skull becomes a civil rights lawyer. Magneto becomes an intelligence agency whistleblower...
This would certainly make for an interesting and new take on these comics. ~shrug~ Maybe it's just because I didn't really start reading comics till recently with a friends Pathfinder comics... you know following every issue. I even have new Thor and Ms Marvel I have started reading. BUT I have no attachment to the old comics, probably because I didn't read them. Dr. Doom was introduced to me by the movies. And I thought that Doom was lame. Is it any wonder I support a remake? I wonder how many more are out there like me? We love the idea of a Dr Doom... we just want him to be more believable, more modern.
Doombringer the DM |
The problem with these changes is that while appealing to the newer more mainstream audiences, they are isolating quite a few of their most loyal fans; you know, the ones that have been reading their comics for far longer? Status quo is god in comics, and save for a few instances, people LIKE that, save for a few examples (Let’s face it, Superman was far too campy in the past).
However, changing such an iconic villain (perhaps one of the best Marvel has come up with) into something so DRASTICALLY different is bound to piss plenty of people off. I mean from ruler of his own country, threat of the Marvel universe, etc... to a blogger. That’s pathetically laughable
thejeff |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sissyl wrote:Meh. Doctor Doom is an authority figure. RL authority figures don't like the sheeple casting authority figures of any sort as villains or problems. Thus, Doom gets remade as an anti-authoritarian villain. Big surprise. Expect the trend to continue. The Brood Queen becomes a devout Amnesty International supporter. The Red Skull becomes a civil rights lawyer. Magneto becomes an intelligence agency whistleblower...This would certainly make for an interesting and new take on these comics. ~shrug~ Maybe it's just because I didn't really start reading comics till recently with a friends Pathfinder comics... you know following every issue. I even have new Thor and Ms Marvel I have started reading. BUT I have no attachment to the old comics, probably because I didn't read them. Dr. Doom was introduced to me by the movies. And I thought that Doom was lame. Is it any wonder I support a remake? I wonder how many more are out there like me? We love the idea of a Dr Doom... we just want him to be more believable, more modern.
I'll echo Kthulhu's comment about the Doom of the previous film being not at all representative of the comics.
What's in the idea of a "Dr. Doom" that you like? I don't really see anything in the "evil programmer" Doom idea that resembles Dr. Doom other than the name? And he's not even calling himself "Dr", is he?
If this concept is a good one, and I'm not at all sure it is for a Fantastic Four movie, why couldn't it be a new character and not Dr. Doom? What does it have in common with the iconic character?
Aranna |
Aranna wrote:Sissyl wrote:Meh. Doctor Doom is an authority figure. RL authority figures don't like the sheeple casting authority figures of any sort as villains or problems. Thus, Doom gets remade as an anti-authoritarian villain. Big surprise. Expect the trend to continue. The Brood Queen becomes a devout Amnesty International supporter. The Red Skull becomes a civil rights lawyer. Magneto becomes an intelligence agency whistleblower...This would certainly make for an interesting and new take on these comics. ~shrug~ Maybe it's just because I didn't really start reading comics till recently with a friends Pathfinder comics... you know following every issue. I even have new Thor and Ms Marvel I have started reading. BUT I have no attachment to the old comics, probably because I didn't read them. Dr. Doom was introduced to me by the movies. And I thought that Doom was lame. Is it any wonder I support a remake? I wonder how many more are out there like me? We love the idea of a Dr Doom... we just want him to be more believable, more modern.
I'll echo Kthulhu's comment about the Doom of the previous film being not at all representative of the comics.
What's in the idea of a "Dr. Doom" that you like? I don't really see anything in the "evil programmer" Doom idea that resembles Dr. Doom other than the name? And he's not even calling himself "Dr", is he?
If this concept is a good one, and I'm not at all sure it is for a Fantastic Four movie, why couldn't it be a new character and not Dr. Doom? What does it have in common with the iconic character?
The idea is a wronged villain who goes way overboard in getting revenge... You don't need a despot for that either. And I will once again point to Angelina Jolie in Maleficent for the PERFECT way to do this. I mean Doom is the good guy from his own point of view right? The themes are similar if not identical.
havoc xiii |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really want Maleficent to really be the bad guy rather than just misunderstood....please don't do this to Dr. Doom.
Also just because you think your the good guy does not automatically make you just "misunderstood". I hate the weonged villian thing, I want despicable villians that you love to hate.
thejeff |
thejeff wrote:The idea is a wronged villain who goes way overboard in getting revenge... You don't need a despot for that either. And I will once again point to Angelina Jolie in Maleficent for the PERFECT way to do this. I mean Doom is the good guy from his own point of view right? The themes are similar if not identical.Aranna wrote:Sissyl wrote:Meh. Doctor Doom is an authority figure. RL authority figures don't like the sheeple casting authority figures of any sort as villains or problems. Thus, Doom gets remade as an anti-authoritarian villain. Big surprise. Expect the trend to continue. The Brood Queen becomes a devout Amnesty International supporter. The Red Skull becomes a civil rights lawyer. Magneto becomes an intelligence agency whistleblower...This would certainly make for an interesting and new take on these comics. ~shrug~ Maybe it's just because I didn't really start reading comics till recently with a friends Pathfinder comics... you know following every issue. I even have new Thor and Ms Marvel I have started reading. BUT I have no attachment to the old comics, probably because I didn't read them. Dr. Doom was introduced to me by the movies. And I thought that Doom was lame. Is it any wonder I support a remake? I wonder how many more are out there like me? We love the idea of a Dr Doom... we just want him to be more believable, more modern.
I'll echo Kthulhu's comment about the Doom of the previous film being not at all representative of the comics.
What's in the idea of a "Dr. Doom" that you like? I don't really see anything in the "evil programmer" Doom idea that resembles Dr. Doom other than the name? And he's not even calling himself "Dr", is he?
If this concept is a good one, and I'm not at all sure it is for a Fantastic Four movie, why couldn't it be a new character and not Dr. Doom? What does it have in common with the iconic character?
You don't need to be Dr. Doom either. If that's all you're taking from Doom, there are plenty of other villains to fit the bill.
thejeff |
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thejeff wrote:You don't need to be Dr. Doom either. If that's all you're taking from Doom, there are plenty of other villains to fit the bill.Are there? Doom seems a good fit for it so why not use Dr Doom this way?
Because you're trading on the name and attracting viewers who like the whole concept and will be disappointed when they find they only kept a variation on one small part of the origin and dropped everything else.
It'd be like having a Fantastic Four movie that dropped the whole super-powers thing and just had the genius scientist, his wife and her kid brother and his test pilot friend on an adventure. Could be a good movie in a pulpy kind of way, but it's not the Fantastic Four.
Misroi |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, Challengers of the Unknown, then.
Look, I'm all for making changes to a character. As campy and ridiculous as the Raimi Spider-Man films were, they gave Otto Octavius a backstory and made him sympathetic. He's villainous in the comics because...reasons. That's a change for the better. As bad as the Daredevil film was, Michael Clarke Duncan was the perfect Kingpin, despite the fact that Wilson Fisk is a white guy in the comics. Some things have to be sacrificed during the transition between media, but sometimes good things can come from these sacrifices.
What Sony's doing is the dark side of this - sacrificing the original intent behind the character without gaining anything in the loss. What are we gaining by having him be a hacktivist? What story are we now able to tell that we couldn't when he had diplomatic immunity, a polymath, an omnidisciplinary scientist, and a mad-on for proving that he is the superior intellect compared to RICHAAAAAAAAAAARDS? Realistic might work for Batman, but we're talking about the Fantastic Four here. They've got a guy who is made of living rock, and one that sheathes himself in fire. They're not realistic. They're over-the-top, and their villain should be just as over-the-top. He should defeat them handily in Act II, place them in "inescapable" deathtraps, gloat to RICHAAAAAAAAAAARDS about the superiority of his plan, then leave them to die while he attends to the "final details of his masterstroke," only for them to escape and defeat him in Act III.
Aranna |
Aranna wrote:Because you're trading on the name and attracting viewers who like the whole concept and will be disappointed when they find they only kept a variation on one small part of the origin and dropped everything else.thejeff wrote:You don't need to be Dr. Doom either. If that's all you're taking from Doom, there are plenty of other villains to fit the bill.Are there? Doom seems a good fit for it so why not use Dr Doom this way?
Disappointed?! This sounds way better than the lame Dr Doom they have given us so far. Let's face it nobody in the movie studio wants to try to recreate the Dr Doom from the comics. I have no idea why but if you want a true recreation you are going to be waiting a long time for a train that ain't coming. Isn't it FAR preferable to have a great story attached to a Doom who isn't true to the comics than a lame movie that sort of tries to keep the character's background intact.
thejeff |
thejeff wrote:Disappointed?! This sounds way better than the lame Dr Doom they have given us so far. Let's face it nobody in the movie studio wants to try to recreate the Dr Doom from the comics. I have no idea why but if you want a true recreation you are going to be waiting a long time for a train that ain't coming. Isn't it FAR preferable to have a great story attached to a Doom who isn't true to the comics than a lame movie that sort of tries to keep the character's background intact.Aranna wrote:Because you're trading on the name and attracting viewers who like the whole concept and will be disappointed when they find they only kept a variation on one small part of the origin and dropped everything else.thejeff wrote:You don't need to be Dr. Doom either. If that's all you're taking from Doom, there are plenty of other villains to fit the bill.Are there? Doom seems a good fit for it so why not use Dr Doom this way?
But why do you want a Dr. Doom? If you don't like anything about the character other than the vague "wronged villain who goes way overboard in getting revenge", why does it matter that it's Dr. Doom?
You might not like the comics version, but there are plenty who do. Why dash their hopes when you could just make up a new "evil programmer" villain instead?
Which is what I said before, really.
MMCJawa |
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Yeah I don't think the argument is
"Dr. Doom must be %100 faithful to the comics"
The argument is changing an element or two is fine if it works within the context of the storyline, but throwing out everything about the character is bad. Especially bad to do if you are working with one of Marvel's most iconic villains.
Magneto and Doc Ock are great examples where they kept the core elements, but changed certain elements. Doc Ock got a sympathetic origin story and reason for his villainy, while Magneto got a toned down costume and, in the original 3 movies, was portrayed by someone old enough to pass as a holocaust survivor.
But they still kept the iconic elements of the villains, the robotic appendages in Doc Ock and the Mutant rights extremist of the latter.
And other villains have had way way more faithful adaptations. Loki is super popular, and he is a pretty straight adaptation of the character. Ultron is getting a different origin story, but just the glimpses from the trailer make him a truly menacing figure.
Also, given all the aliens, demons, robots, and mutants in comic book adaptations, Evil megalomaniacal dictator and scientist with a metal mask is not really going to come off as to unrealistic bad. Give him a good actor and a solid role and it will work.
Aranna |
Aranna wrote:thejeff wrote:Disappointed?! This sounds way better than the lame Dr Doom they have given us so far. Let's face it nobody in the movie studio wants to try to recreate the Dr Doom from the comics. I have no idea why but if you want a true recreation you are going to be waiting a long time for a train that ain't coming. Isn't it FAR preferable to have a great story attached to a Doom who isn't true to the comics than a lame movie that sort of tries to keep the character's background intact.Aranna wrote:Because you're trading on the name and attracting viewers who like the whole concept and will be disappointed when they find they only kept a variation on one small part of the origin and dropped everything else.thejeff wrote:You don't need to be Dr. Doom either. If that's all you're taking from Doom, there are plenty of other villains to fit the bill.Are there? Doom seems a good fit for it so why not use Dr Doom this way?
But why do you want a Dr. Doom? If you don't like anything about the character other than the vague "wronged villain who goes way overboard in getting revenge", why does it matter that it's Dr. Doom?
You might not like the comics version, but there are plenty who do. Why dash their hopes when you could just make up a new "evil programmer" villain instead?
Which is what I said before, really.
But this isn't about me. It's about FOX. They paid lots of money to keep using the Fantastic Four and Dr Doom. So they are going to give you a Dr Doom whether you like it or not. Why not encourage them to make a good story even if it means discarding canon since they seem to have failed to give you good stories based on this canon so far. Maybe they just need to try something totally new? Maybe it will fail too. But I say let them try. Maybe this Doom will make more sense than the one we have been given so far.
Try it and then judge... don't dismiss it out of hand before even seeing if it can be better than all the failed attempts so far. Don't I at least make that much sense?
thejeff |
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thejeff wrote:Aranna wrote:thejeff wrote:Disappointed?! This sounds way better than the lame Dr Doom they have given us so far. Let's face it nobody in the movie studio wants to try to recreate the Dr Doom from the comics. I have no idea why but if you want a true recreation you are going to be waiting a long time for a train that ain't coming. Isn't it FAR preferable to have a great story attached to a Doom who isn't true to the comics than a lame movie that sort of tries to keep the character's background intact.Aranna wrote:Because you're trading on the name and attracting viewers who like the whole concept and will be disappointed when they find they only kept a variation on one small part of the origin and dropped everything else.thejeff wrote:You don't need to be Dr. Doom either. If that's all you're taking from Doom, there are plenty of other villains to fit the bill.Are there? Doom seems a good fit for it so why not use Dr Doom this way?
But why do you want a Dr. Doom? If you don't like anything about the character other than the vague "wronged villain who goes way overboard in getting revenge", why does it matter that it's Dr. Doom?
You might not like the comics version, but there are plenty who do. Why dash their hopes when you could just make up a new "evil programmer" villain instead?
Which is what I said before, really.But this isn't about me. It's about FOX. They paid lots of money to keep using the Fantastic Four and Dr Doom. So they are going to give you a Dr Doom whether you like it or not. Why not encourage them to make a good story even if it means discarding canon since they seem to have failed to give you good stories based on this canon so far. Maybe they just need to try something totally new? Maybe it will fail too. But I say let them try. Maybe this Doom will make more sense than the one we have been given so far.
Try it and then judge... don't dismiss it out of hand before even seeing if it can be...
Not really. First, I don't believe they have to use the Dr. Doom character to keep him, though I could be wrong. I thought he came as part of the package.
But even beyond that, I think this just shows they're not going to make a good FF movie. That they fundamentally don't get the concept.
An evil programmer as a villain for the FF strikes me as a really stupid plot. Maybe as a filler issue of the comic. FF are big, epic cosmic type heroes. Let them face off against villains worthy of them.
I don't see any reason to think discarding canon makes them any likely to make a good movie than trying to keep it vaguely recognizable.
I'm not arguing canon details here, but the basic nature of the characters they paid so much to be able to use.
MMCJawa |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But this isn't about me. It's about FOX. They paid lots of money to keep using the Fantastic Four and Dr Doom. So they are going to give you a Dr Doom whether you like it or not. Why not encourage them to make a good story even if it means discarding canon since they seem to have failed to give you good stories based on this canon so far. Maybe they just need to try something totally new? Maybe it will fail too. But I say let them try. Maybe this Doom will make more sense than the one we have been given so far.
Try it and then judge... don't dismiss it out of hand before even seeing if it can be...
1) The earlier Doom didn't follow Canon at all, which is in part of why he didn't work. And the Fantastic Four actually have a pretty large villain roster...they don't need to include Doom to keep their rights on him, since as TheJeff says, they are a parcel deal.
I don't NEED a Fantastic Four movie; their are certainly more than enough movies to keep me occupied. I will see the movie if the buzz/reviews are good. If the Doctor Doom change is symbolic of other changes, I don't think it will be.
And keep in mind, this is a Fox superhero movie, which comes from a studio that has been very hit and miss in their output. They have had some decent movies (X1, X2, First Class, Days of Future Past), but also a lot of mediocre if not absolutely horrible movies (X3, Wolverine Origins, Elecktra, Fantastic Four 2). So even without the Doom news, I would be hesitant to get excited over this movie.
Kthulhu |
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I'd love for Marvel to get the rights back to the F4. Not for the team itself...they've never been favorites of mine. But they have a lot of the Marvel cosmic entities tied into their rights.
Plus, Doom. Doom was the template upon which Darth Vader was based (before Lucas turned him into an emo kid).
MMCJawa |
Yeah...sadly a lot of the best Marvel villains are attached to franchises that Marvel sold the rights too. Doctor Doom, Galactus, Green Goblin, Magneto, Apocalypse, etc
although from what I understand, the Skrull might be in the same boat as Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, and usable by both studios. When people speculated that the Skrull were the aliens in the first Avengers, Whedon's response was that the Skrull need a lot of set up, not that the rights were owned by someone else.
Freehold DM |
While a stupid idea, it did give me one laugh from the DOOM tumblr (reblogged from a guy I follow)
'DOOM cannot deny that he leaked this nude photo of the hated Susan Richards'
** spoiler omitted **
The rest of it is gonna be a train wreck, methinks.
ROTFL
now I really want to see this doom. Maybe the new ff will be a comedy.
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal |
Again, it sounds as though they are using the Ultimate FF as source material. Victor Von Doom was a student along w Reed, Sue, and Johnny at whatever they named that hyper-smart think tank/high school. He was actually a part of the same accident that gave the FF thier powers. The accident was proven to be a direct result of his f*$$ing w Reed's experiment & he was expelled before his powers manifested. He wound up going back to Europe & 'slumming' it as an underground 'tech head' before resurfacing with a plan to use all the people he had provided tech to as mind-controlled army...
This is a very condensed & simplified version of the first Ultimate Dr Doom storyline & could easily be the seed Fox is going with, simplifying his description further for the 'elevator pitch' to 'hacker'...
BPorter |
Again, it sounds as though they are using the Ultimate FF as source material. Victor Von Doom was a student along w Reed, Sue, and Johnny at whatever they named that hyper-smart think tank/high school. He was actually a part of the same accident that gave the FF thier powers. The accident was proven to be a direct result of his f@~!ing w Reed's experiment & he was expelled before his powers manifested. He wound up going back to Europe & 'slumming' it as an underground 'tech head' before resurfacing with a plan to use all the people he had provided tech to as mind-controlled army...
This is a very condensed & simplified version of the first Ultimate Dr Doom storyline & could easily be the seed Fox is going with, simplifying his description further for the 'elevator pitch' to 'hacker'...
Very likely.
Still sucks.
Purple Dragon Knight |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am still trying to figure out why they think an aunt May solo movie is going to do anything other than flop.
Doom however needed a rewrite. And some crazy hacktivist blogger might appeal to the coffee shop hipster crowd.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! he didn't! he just DID NOT!
To the Nine Hells with the coffee shop hipster crowd! they can choose to make something else - ANYTHING ELSE! - completely irrelevant!
Kalshane |
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There is very little I like about the Ultimate universe. Now even less.
I liked Ultimate Spider-man, and thought some of the concepts of the other heroes were interesting (ie What if Thor is just a delusional mutant with weather powers?) but in the end I found myself hating every super-hero that didn't appear in Ultimate Spidey, and even some that did. Eventually even the shine on USM started wearing off for me for about a year before they killed him off, so I dropped that book as well.
I think there's a difference between flawed heroes and a bunch of jackwads with super powers that happen to beat up people that are even bigger jackwads.
Sadly, the Ultimate Universe is almost entirely populated with said jackwads.