The funny thing about doors in PFS


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claudekennilol wrote:


Andrew Christian wrote:

Oh, and for those who say there isn't a rule about this:

1) There isn't a rule that specifically says you can't ready outside of combat.

2) There doesn't need to be for this to be the rule.

3) Readying is a special initiative action.

4) If you are not in initiative, you cannot take an initiative action.

So it comes down to whether or not you believe you "can be in combat" while "you're not actually in combat".

More accurately, only if you believe you can be in initiative while "you're not actually in combat".

Grand Lodge 2/5

thejeff wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:


Andrew Christian wrote:

Oh, and for those who say there isn't a rule about this:

1) There isn't a rule that specifically says you can't ready outside of combat.

2) There doesn't need to be for this to be the rule.

3) Readying is a special initiative action.

4) If you are not in initiative, you cannot take an initiative action.

So it comes down to whether or not you believe you "can be in combat" while "you're not actually in combat".
More accurately, only if you believe you can be in initiative while "you're not actually in combat".

Semantics at this point, but same difference.

5/5 5/55/55/5

claudekennilol ,

That would be implicit.

Or to clarify, I agree with your interpretation, I just don't think its spelled out well enough to whap a dm over the head with the core rule book.

Dark Archive 2/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Small things like this, along with how to determine surprise rounds, are a big part of the game thats never exactly defined. As a result they're one of the larger points of variation. Some DMs seem to have either you surprised or the enemies holding an action behind a door every. single. time.

Too true. :/

As an aside, this why I love how Gunslingers and Swashbucklers eventually draw their weapons "when they roll initiative."


claudekennilol wrote:
thejeff wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:


Andrew Christian wrote:

Oh, and for those who say there isn't a rule about this:

1) There isn't a rule that specifically says you can't ready outside of combat.

2) There doesn't need to be for this to be the rule.

3) Readying is a special initiative action.

4) If you are not in initiative, you cannot take an initiative action.

So it comes down to whether or not you believe you "can be in combat" while "you're not actually in combat".
More accurately, only if you believe you can be in initiative while "you're not actually in combat".
Semantics at this point, but same difference.

Not really. If you can go into initiative out of combat, then you can go into initiative and ready an action before opening the door.

4/5 *

At my table, initiative is rolled whenever one creature has detected another using the rules for Perception. This may includes creatures on one or both sides, so (for example) there may be two monsters and 3 PCs who know that a confrontation is imminent and get to roll initiative, while the rest of the folks are in the dark.

Those folks who made their perception can act in the surprise round. By far the most common action taken in the surprise round is to ready an action - this means you wait for the other side to demonstrate hostile intent before attacking, but still get to attack first. People who haven't yet detected a threat haven't rolled initiative and don't get to do so until the start of Round 1.

You can't ready an action out of combat because the rules don't modify the effects of doing this. Try walking around with a bow drawn for 8 hours - besides being fatigued, the bow string would stretch, your arm would relax and reduce the effective pull of the bow... we just don't model that.

I *will* allow PCs to tell me they'd like to start initiative at any point - say, when they are preparing to open a door. They can then ready actions to shoot, etc. if they want - but then, that is what happens whether no matter what they see. When the SWAT team goes through the door, they have readied actions - but they also only do that when they know what's on the other side and won't accidentally shoot civilians.

5/5 ** RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

Situations like the "Readied Archer" need to be handled conservatively, lest they provide an overwhelming advantage to the group allowed to ready actions. Most such situations are better handled as a surprise round.

Players sometimes envision situations where their "readied" actions would annihilate unsuspecting foes, but then resent the converse situation, where opponents drop half the party with their own readied actions.

In addition to potential balance/rule issues, such situations don't pass "real world" muster as well as some people think. In the real world, suspects have managed to charge and grapple police officers covering them with drawn weapons (A "readied action" if anything was). Soldiers have caught (and thrown back) hand grenades. These situations are hardly the certain deal that a readied action creates.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
GM Lamplighter wrote:
People who haven't yet detected a threat haven't rolled initiative and don't get to do so until the start of Round 1.

That's actually out of line with the rules.

Initiative wrote:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.
Surprise wrote:

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

As you can see, it does not say unaware combatants do not roll initiative, it just says they do not get to act in the surprise round.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
As you can see, it does not say unaware combatants do not roll initiative, it just says they do not get to act in the surprise round.

True enough, but if you cannot act, your initiative score doesn't matter. So waiting until after surprise rounds to roll initiative has few (if any) repercussions on those unaffected.


Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
People who haven't yet detected a threat haven't rolled initiative and don't get to do so until the start of Round 1.

That's actually out of line with the rules.

Initiative wrote:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.
Surprise wrote:

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

As you can see, it does not say unaware combatants do not roll initiative, it just says they do not get to act in the surprise round.

It doesn't matter though. Who cares if they roll initiative, but can't act until a later round or if they don't roll initiative until the round they can act in? It makes no difference.

Changes absolutely nothing. Do it whichever way is more convenient.

If you're strict about it, what happens with creatures who might or might not become involved. Say in the next room if they make perception checks at some point in the fight. Or a fight that turns into a chase and leads into other creatures? Must you roll at the start of each battle for every creature who could conceivably get drawn in, even if the vast majority of the time they won't?

4/5 *

True, although functionally it isn't a difference. I do find it lets me move forward with the surprise round and makes it feel more like something out of the unaware players' control. If you are surprised but roll a nat 20 on initiative and know you're going first anyway, it's hard not to metathink.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

thejeff wrote:
It doesn't matter though.

What matters is that he made an erroneous statement, and I was pointing that out.

What metathink are you referring to? I could see the knowledge that the cleric is going first on initative making people wait for a buff spell or something, but I don't think the initiative roll really changes that thought much.

4/5 *

Mea culpa, TOZ.

The metathinking comes from knowing what order you get to go in, despite the fact that you are supposed to be surprised. Agreed, it isn't a big difference.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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I get that, my friend. I just don't see that as being a huge deal, so we are agreeing it makes little difference. (It's about as important as the fact that you were wrong. ;) The character is still surprised, even if the player is not.

thejeff wrote:
If you're strict about it, what happens with creatures who might or might not become involved.

Are they combatants, or not? There is your answer.

Grand Lodge 2/5

thejeff wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
thejeff wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:


Andrew Christian wrote:

Oh, and for those who say there isn't a rule about this:

1) There isn't a rule that specifically says you can't ready outside of combat.

2) There doesn't need to be for this to be the rule.

3) Readying is a special initiative action.

4) If you are not in initiative, you cannot take an initiative action.

So it comes down to whether or not you believe you "can be in combat" while "you're not actually in combat".
More accurately, only if you believe you can be in initiative while "you're not actually in combat".
Semantics at this point, but same difference.
Not really. If you can go into initiative out of combat, then you can go into initiative and ready an action before opening the door.

Yes really.

PRD, CRB, Combat wrote:

Initiative

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.

You can't go into initiative outside of combat.


Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

I get that, my friend. I just don't see that as being a huge deal, so we are agreeing it makes little difference. (It's about as important as the fact that you were wrong. ;) The character is still surprised, even if the player is not.

thejeff wrote:
If you're strict about it, what happens with creatures who might or might not become involved.
Are they combatants, or not? There is your answer.

Potential combatants. Not currently involved in this fight. Much like the guy who blew his perception roll and is staring at the wall.

He's just more likely to get involved later.

In other words, there is no hard line. There is no firm definition.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Potential combatants.

So your answer is yes.


Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Potential combatants.
So your answer is yes.

So your answer is that you must roll initiative for everyone who could potentially become involved in combat at the start of combat, even if the chances are very good that they never will. That's a lot of initiative.

I've had several combats spiral out of control, with either the party chasing survivors from one room into another batch of enemies or a series of waves coming as more people heard the noise of combat or of alarms. I've always just rolled as they got there and it became important when they acted.

Much like I've also occasionally gone into initiative without a battle actually happening - either because I wanted to track who acted when in a non-combat situation or because the first people to act defused a potential fight.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
So your answer

No, that was your answer.

Sovereign Court 5/5

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claudekennilol wrote:


PRD, CRB, Combat wrote:

Initiative

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.
You can't go into initiative outside of combat.

Actually, that's not what that means.

What that means is you can't go into combat without an initiative roll.

That's a fairly important distinction, since you appear to be saying combat can't happen until after initiative rolls happen.

That's demonstrably not the case. Example:

Party A and Party B are fighting. Party C is in the next room attempting to gain access into the room in which parties A and B are fighting. All Party C is doing at this point is attempting to open a door.

While Party C is attempting to gain access, some of Party A decides to go on overwatch and thump whoever is coming in through the door. This is completely within the rules, and combat doesn't "reset" just because party C has joined the combat. Party C is just rolled into the preexisting combat.

Some appear to be arguing that characters in Party A cannot have overwatch going on while party C is attempting to open the door unless Party B is also there fighting them. That's obviously ridiculous.

So, if one is going to stick literally to the rule that readied actions cannot happen "outside of combat", then what is "combat" must include a very broad definition that is more akin to "crisis situation". And that's not opinion, that's really a Must.

Grand Lodge 2/5

deusvult wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:


PRD, CRB, Combat wrote:

Initiative

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.
You can't go into initiative outside of combat.

Actually, that's not what that means.

What that means is you can't go into combat without an initiative roll.

That's a fairly important distinction, since you appear to be saying combat can't happen until after initiative rolls happen.

That's demonstrably not the case. Example:

Party A and Party B are fighting. Party C is in the next room attempting to gain access into the room in which parties A and B are fighting. All Party C is doing at this point is attempting to open a door.

While Party C is attempting to gain access, some of Party A decides to go on overwatch and thump whoever is coming in through the door. This is completely within the rules, and combat doesn't "reset" just because party C has joined the combat. Party C is just rolled into the preexisting combat.

Some appear to be arguing that characters in Party A cannot have overwatch going on while party C is attempting to open the door unless Party B is also there fighting them. That's obviously ridiculous.

I'm not aware of any other place in the rules on how to start initiative, can you show me where it is?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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GM Lamplighter wrote:
True, although functionally it isn't a difference.

Spoiler'd for tangent/derail:

The M.O. of "don't roll initiative until the first regular round" is fine as long as the GM understands what it is that's actually supposed to be happening, but it's been my experience that most GMs who are in that habit have at some point forgotten how surprise rounds actually work.

This makes a difference when I used to show up with my (now retired at 13.2) Diviner who automatically gets to act in every surprise round. With GMs who did it the technically-correct way, I generally didn't run into problems. But GMs who had years of ingrained habit with the shortcut would tend to resolve an attack/spell out of nowhere, then call for initiative; when I would point out I'd have gotten to act in the surprise round, it was remarkable how often I was told that the ambush happened first and then we started with regular rounds, with no "surprise round" ever occurring.

In short: "best practice" will prevent a type of error that easily springs from getting comfortable with shortcuts.


Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
thejeff wrote:
So your answer
No, that was your answer.

I have no idea what you're saying now.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

thejeff wrote:
I have no idea what you're saying now.

Is it really that important?

Sovereign Court 5/5

claudekennilol wrote:


I'm not aware of any other place in the rules on how to start initiative, can you show me where it is?

That's besides the point. You said that:

Quote:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.

means effectively:

Quote:
You can't go into initiative outside of combat.

I pointed out the logical flaw. Just because there aren't formal rules about using initiative for times other than when someone is trying to kill you doesn't mean your logic isn't flawed.

If you don't see the flaw, I'll point it out again.

2 parties fighting. 3rd party joins the fight after that fight begins. In light of those actions of the 3rd party prior to entering the fight there is either there's a paradox that annihilates the preexisting fight when the 3rd party joins the preexisting fight, or the actions of the 3rd party can happen inside initiative order but outside of (their own) combat.

In order for a 3rd party to join a fight after the fight has begun, its actions have to be tracked in initiative order before it enters the fight. Those actions may be pre-combat buffs, overcoming an obstacle like opening a door, whatever. But despite the 3rd party not (yet) "being in combat", they're very much in initiative order.


deusvult wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:


I'm not aware of any other place in the rules on how to start initiative, can you show me where it is?

That's besides the point. You said that:

Quote:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.

means effectively:

Quote:
You can't go into initiative outside of combat.

I pointed out the logical flaw. Just because there aren't formal rules about using initiative for times other than when someone is trying to kill you doesn't mean your logic isn't flawed.

If you don't see the flaw, I'll point it out again.

2 parties fighting. 3rd party joins the fight after that fight begins. In light of those actions of the 3rd party prior to entering the fight there is either there's a paradox that annihilates the preexisting fight when the 3rd party joins the preexisting fight, or the actions of the 3rd party can happen inside initiative order but outside of (their own) combat.

Apparently they have to roll initiative at the start of the fight between A&B, since they might get involved in it.

Sovereign Court 5/5

thejeff wrote:
Apparently they have to roll initiative at the start of the fight between A&B, since they might get involved in it.

What if they decide not to? What if they're not even in the vicinity when it began? The rules for what can happen in 6 seconds don't change because metaphysically some d20 dropped and a godlike being called a GM announced it's for an initiative roll. The entire adventuring day can broken down into 6 second increments, but initiative is only rolled for handling the order in which people act for very small smidgens of that time.

Crisis situations should often (arguably always, if actions on the 6 second scale are meaningful) use initiative. Fighting spreading fires, negotiating an obstacle, swimming across a hazard, helping an ally succumbing to a fast acting (1 round) poison, etc, are all crises that aren't "combat" yet all CAN be resolved in initiative order.

Just because the rules for combat saying it starts with an initiative roll doesn't mean initiative rolls are impossible for crises that don't involve someone trying to kill you.

4/5

If people consistently applied the rules for Perception to draw in other encounters, all scenario maps would have to be remade to include 30' hallways between encounters with multiple walls. Relevant Perception details:

PRD wrote:

Hear the sound of battle –10

Perception Modifiers DC Modifier
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet
Through a closed door +5
Through a wall +10/foot of thickness
Favorable conditions1 –2
Unfavorable conditions1 +2
Terrible conditions2 +5
Creature making the check is distracted +5
Creature making the check is asleep +10
Creature or object is invisible +20

For example, if we look at a situation in which an NPC is adjacent to a door, combat breaks out 20' away from the door in the next room, and the NPC is distracted, the Perception DC is -3. If the same situation happens, but the NPC is asleep instead of distracted, the DC is 2.

If, as a general rule, you have NPCs take 10 on relevant checks for expediency's sake, a sleeping creature next to a door needs a -9 Perception modifier to not wake up.

Alternately, suppose you have a scenario in which 3 rooms are arranged in a line (A, B, C) and each is 30'x30', with a door connecting A to B and, on the opposite wall, a door connecting B to C. An NPC is asleep on the far side of C. Battle breaks out in A, approximately 10' from the door.

Battle DC: -10
Distance: +7 (70' from battle)
Doors x2: +10
Sleep: +10

This results in a DC 17 check. This is a reasonable opportunity of failure for the NPC, even on a take 10. If the NPC was distracted instead of asleep, however, he would most certainly be aware, even at level 1.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The one issue I would see with allowing a party to drop into initiative at any time (which was my first thought on how to handle this kind of situation) is that it would negate the party every being flat footed or surprised (since initiative would have already been in place).

I'd thought there was a section discussing new combatants entering an ongoing battle but either I just can't find it or I'm thinking of another system/version.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Bali wrote:

The one issue I would see with allowing a party to drop into initiative at any time (which was my first thought on how to handle this kind of situation) is that it would negate the party every being flat footed or surprised (since initiative would have already been in place).

I'd thought there was a section discussing new combatants entering an ongoing battle but either I just can't find it or I'm thinking of another system/version.

I make players at my PFS games roll initiative right after character introductions. They've rolled initiative before they've even gotten their VC briefing, so if one is going to insist that the act of a d20 being rolled for initiative "starts the combat music" then my players routinely spend their first few hours/days/weeks of legwork and travel "in combat".

No, I wouldn't say they're avoiding being flat-footed for when an inevitable battle takes place. In my view, flat-footedness is linked to whether or not you're aware you're in danger rather to whether or not an initiative roll has been made.

It's all about that awareness, if the players get "a bad feeling" that somethings about to attack them, and I have forgotten to have them pre-roll their initiatives, I'd let them do so on the spot. But they're still flatfooted if they're surprised by some attack (despite their precautions)

To link it back to the readied actions and doors discussion, yeah I'd totally allow the players (or the monsters) to 'enter combat' and ready actions if they hear someone trying to get through the door. That's the key, they have to know someone is coming. You don't go on overwatch indefinitely. And yes, that means the ambushers aren't flat-footed, even if beaten on initiative. They've already acted for the last X rounds, delaying/readying all the while. (of course, to be clear, if the door scratchings was a distraction and the enemy pops in from somewhere else, there IS still the potential for the would-be-ambushers to be surprised/flat-footed.)

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Something funny that comes up in scenarios on occasion is the assumption that the monsters can sneak up on the party just because its dark, when EVERYTHING in golarion except humans and halflings can see in the dark.

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Benjamin Falk wrote:
Other than what many people think about it, playing stealthy characters or even a rogue *gasp* can hold many advantages, when you know what you are doing.

That attitude is half the problem. Putting the blame on the players for playing poorly and doin it wrong when it doesn't work is a complete canard when the rules are murky enough to make it DM fiat, and the default DM position seems to be the players will be surprised all the time and the monsters will be surprised never.

I dissent.

First, "that attitude" doesn´t sound cool.
I was referring to a certain playstyle that is fairly common and some think it´s the best thing to do, but i have a different opinion on that.
There are just too many GM´s who let players get away with too much stuff sometimes. Running through a lively dungeon while crying and smashing doors will catch attention.
I would never expect new players to know the full rules and point out a lot of things to them. There is a time though after which i expect people to have had a look at the rules or picked up most during game sessions.
If you think that having the minions behave in ways reactive to the players that are in the scope of run as written is putting the blame on players for playing bad, that´s your thing.

I´m not sure how the rules are murky there. Most PFS scenarios at least indirectly also pay respect to that and have lines where it says that people are expecting the PC or not.
On the other hand, monsters often need their surprise rounds to get into position or somewhere close, so it´s not a free attack.
I don´t exactly see your default position quite often, but it seems there are more then enough people out here who don´t really know that rules.
I daresay it´s more due to them never actually reding those rules in the book as to the rules being that murky.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Benjamin Falk wrote:

First, "that attitude" doesn´t sound cool.

Its not supposed to sound cool. Its supposed to point out a fair bit really not cool condescension towards people disagreeing with you, and holding your alleged ability as the reason your right.

You're saying that with you stealth and subtly work because you know what you're doing, while those saying that it never works just aren't as good as you are. That's horsefeathers.

The number one reason why stealth and subtly works or doesn't work is the unwritten rules, mores, habits practices and rules that exist largely in the head of the dm, not your superior system mastery. That gets really wonky in an organized game like PFS where the DM keeps changing.

Quote:

I was referring to a certain playstyle that is fairly common and some think it´s the best thing to do, but i have a different opinion on that.

There are just too many GM´s who let players get away with too much stuff sometimes. Running through a lively dungeon while crying and smashing doors will catch attention.

If the encounters were realistic 99% of the time you'd just have the entire adventure piled into one fight. People fighting and dying make a lot of noise.

Quote:
On the other hand, monsters often need their surprise rounds to get into position or somewhere close, so it´s not a free attack.

If they're doing something where they could be spotted by the PCs and the PCs can't react to them its an unfair surprise round.

Quote:
I daresay it´s more due to them never actually reading those rules in the book as to the rules being that murky.

This is the entirety of the rules as written for this.

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.

That's it. Every dm in practice handles that sentence differently, and its not from a lack of reading the rules.

The Exchange 3/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Benjamin Falk wrote:

Quote:

I was referring to a certain playstyle that is fairly common and some think it´s the best thing to do, but i have a different opinion on that.

There are just too many GM´s who let players get away with too much stuff sometimes. Running through a lively dungeon while crying and smashing doors will catch attention.
If the encounters were realistic 99% of the time you'd just have the entire adventure piled into one fight. People fighting and dying make a lot of noise.

I have to say, some adventures turn out this way, hearing the sound of battle requires a perception check of -10. Of course modifying for walls, distance and doors this can be made more realistic, but of course if my enemies hear the sound of combat, they'll send at least one guy to go check out whats happening. The idea that this is a modular video game and enemies don't exist until the PC's open their door and spawn them is silly.

Same with having doors opening and what not, the perception check to hear a command word on a wand or a wizard casting a spell is 0. So when the party tells me they want to buff up before going through the door, I'll usually start initiative there that way any enemies have a chance to hear all the yelling and spell casting taking place.

edit: Sorry about that BNW, had one too few end quote links.


Codanous wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Benjamin Falk wrote:

Quote:

I was referring to a certain playstyle that is fairly common and some think it´s the best thing to do, but i have a different opinion on that.

There are just too many GM´s who let players get away with too much stuff sometimes. Running through a lively dungeon while crying and smashing doors will catch attention.
If the encounters were realistic 99% of the time you'd just have the entire adventure piled into one fight. People fighting and dying make a lot of noise.
I have to say, some adventures turn out this way, hearing the sound of battle requires a perception check of -10. Of course modifying for walls, distance and doors this can be made more realistic, but of course if my enemies hear the sound of combat, they'll send at least one guy to go check out whats happening. The idea that this is a modular video game and enemies don't exist until the PC's open their door and spawn them is silly.

It's silly, but it often turns published adventures into death traps. You really either have to arrange things so this doesn't happen or take some liberties

5/5 5/55/55/5

Codanous wrote:

I have to say, some adventures turn out this way

They are not supposed to without being written that way. It entirely circumvents the ECL system if the normal opperation of events gets you the entire dungeon at once.

Quote:
The idea that this is a modular video game and enemies don't exist until the PC's open their door and spawn them is silly.

Its an accepted adventure trope. Deviating from it to the extent that you seem to be implying is probably frowned on.

Quote:
Same with having doors opening and what not, the perception check to hear a command word on a wand or a wizard casting a spell is 0. So when the party tells me they want to buff up before going through the door, I'll usually start initiative there that way any enemies have a chance to hear all the yelling and spell casting taking place.

This is a big reason that its very rare for the party to kick in the door and surprise people. You have 5 or so stealth checks, 2 of whom are probably going to be in the negatives. Someone is going to clank enough to let the room know someone's walking around outside.

Quote:
edit: Sorry about that BNW, had one too few end quote links.

Yeah I really can't throw that rock... :)

The Exchange 3/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Codanous wrote:

I have to say, some adventures turn out this way

They are not supposed to without being written that way. It entirely circumvents the ECL system if the normal opperation of events gets you the entire dungeon at once.

Quote:
The idea that this is a modular video game and enemies don't exist until the PC's open their door and spawn them is silly.
Its an accepted adventure trope. Deviating from it to the extent that you seem to be implying is probably frowned on.

Fair enough, I'm willing to acknowledge that I may not be completely in the right. I've always envisioned a game that was more dynamic in nature than computer/video games but perhaps that is a better vision saved for home games than PFS.

4/5

Codanous, it's not so much an issue of dynamics. Scenarios are written, in part, to fit well on flipmats and a single battle map. There are obviously exceptions, but this is more or less what you see from room to room. Like my math indicated above, if you didn't have modular design for these spaces, a single encounter would EASILY alert the entire dungeon.

Emerald Spire 1:
If you consider Clanky's room + the 2 following as approached from the back door (A11), those rooms are narrower than the math I put up, totaling 40' from the basic positions of goblins in A10 to A6. If you have a battle against Clanky and the cleric (A10), the goblins in the next room (A9) should DEFINITELY hear it (DC -3) and the food artist + sleeping goblin (A6) should be hearing it, as well, as the Perception DC should be approximately 14 for the sleeper and DC 9 for the artist (it's actually DC 8 because that goblin has a special modifier for being distracted). These are basic goblins, so they have a -1 Perception, so a Take 10 should alert the artist goblin just fine, who leaves her masterpiece to sleep if she chooses to join the battle. The 6 goblins in A8 have a DC 1 Perception check, or DC 6 if they're distracted, to hear the same, as they would only have 1 door closed between them and A10.

And that's supposed to be the easy entrance. Hope your level 1 party brought a negative energy cleric or two.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Prethen wrote:

Usually, when a party I'm playing in encounters a door and opens it, I wonder about certain details the might seem moot but could actually be germane to the encounter.

It seems that most scenarios do not let you know which way the doors open (inward and away from you or outward and towards you). I've seen maps on occasion outline this, but I don't think most do.

Doors tend to be built to open inward. Go to any house, try any public restroom, and that's what you'll see, The basic reason is so that they don't clutter up the halls that access them. This is particularly true in real castles which don't have the luxury of 10 foot wide hallways connecting the various rooms.

Dark Archive 4/5

I have had it run both ways, and sometimes it can become quite difficult to fight the entire dungeon complex at once (as combine 4-5 fights makes the ECL of the encounter increase by +4 to +5 which if the fight was already supposed to be difficult could make it lethal).

I have also had this happen to PC's who are prepared for it (and with Hold Portal, and other simple spells to delay the extra combatants) it can actually make for a very fun encounter.

However you also have to consider that if you bring the entire complex into the one fight your adventure length will drop from 4-5 hours to about 2 hours (the time it takes to resolve the mammoth encounter) less if the Party is unprepared for such a large fight.

In home games this works quite well, for PFS its kind of a challenge as the rules as written obviously allow the NPC's perception checks and unless there is a specific reason they cannot join the fight (ie must guard this object), then they probably should be joining in, even if this increases the CR to a much higher level.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

The problem with the SWAT Team analogy is they aren't readying actions. At best, they're delaying until after the guy who opens the door. At worst, opening the door happens in the surprise round, and none of them enter initiative until the door is opened. If someone on the other side of the door heard them getting ready to bust it down, they could ready an action to shoot when the door was opened. Their action would go off after the door opened, but before the rest of the Team could act.

I start tracking initiative when one side becomes aware of the other. That includes the bad guys becoming aware of the murder hobos outside the door arguing over whether to cast fireball or just let the barbarian rush in.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Codanous wrote:
Same with having doors opening and what not, the perception check to hear a command word on a wand or a wizard casting a spell is 0.

I don't see this on the perception chart, where are you getting this number from?

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Benjamin Falk wrote:

First, "that attitude" doesn´t sound cool.

Its not supposed to sound cool. Its supposed to point out a fair bit really not cool condescension towards people disagreeing with you, and holding your alleged ability as the reason your right.

You're saying that with you stealth and subtly work because you know what you're doing, while those saying that it never works just aren't as good as you are. That's horsefeathers.

The number one reason why stealth and subtly works or doesn't work is the unwritten rules, mores, habits practices and rules that exist largely in the head of the dm, not your superior system mastery. That gets really wonky in an organized game like PFS where the DM keeps changing.

Dear BNW, it seems to me that for some reasons, you read what i wrote with a very different ear than what i was writing. Maybe i voiced myself badly. It´s in no way meant condescending to anyone. I don´t claim superior system mastery for myself. Anyone can use stealth and subtly work. Some only never consider it.

On the other hand, i´ve met some players and GM´s alike who did never read those sections of the book obviously. So what i meant is that it doesn´t hurt to actually read it.
I´m also not in the GM boat where monsters can never be surprised and players are all the time.
So, thanks for all the accusations and personal picking^^

4/5 ****

claudekennilol wrote:
Codanous wrote:
Same with having doors opening and what not, the perception check to hear a command word on a wand or a wizard casting a spell is 0.
I don't see this on the perception chart, where are you getting this number from?

"A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice."

---
Hear the details of a conversation DC 0
---

Seems like by far the most appropriate entry on the perception list.

The Exchange 3/5

Robert Hetherington wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Codanous wrote:
Same with having doors opening and what not, the perception check to hear a command word on a wand or a wizard casting a spell is 0.
I don't see this on the perception chart, where are you getting this number from?

"A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice."

---
Hear the details of a conversation DC 0
---

Seems like by far the most appropriate entry on the perception list.

That was my understanding of how the two rules would interact. While some argument could be made that you could softly use a command word on a wand because the language for command words is:

"Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates."

I've ruled it as being a Perception check of 0 to hear someone use a wand but I could see someone putting up an argument that you could softly command the item to work and I'd back down if they brought it up like that and change the DC to hear to them that of a whispered conversation, DC 15.

Either way, I think up ahead I relented that maybe my use of the perception skill has no place in PFS and I'm okay with that, I am willing to admit that I may be in the minority and for PFS that usually means I am in the wrong. I GM in a home game as well, so I can always use the Perception skill there and can better design encounters around the fact that I use it. So this is my way of leave taking this argument and hopefully saving some face, I wouldn't want to lose any credibility I might have.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

For what it's worth, Codanous, I agree with you on those Perception DCs. Generally, though, when my players say they're doing something quietly (like spellcasting) on the other side of a door, I have them roll stealth, and use the result instead of the listed DCs.

5/5 5/55/55/5

When monsters sneak up on the PCs

Best case: Perception check. Incoming monster. Those that make it act in the surprise round

Worst case:

You're surprised! The monster attacks.
You didn't ask to make a perception check.
You didn't say you were looking. Surprise! Monster attacks.

When PCs sneak up on the monsters

Best case: Stealth vs. Perception

Worst case: The monster sees in the dark so what you THINK is you creeping through the darkness looks to the kobold like someone trying to creep up on the pitchers mound at Wrigley Field. You have no cover, no concealment, you're carrying a light source, you're standing next to a paladin with a negative 6 stealth modifier, the 3 monsters each get a perception roll against the worst of 7 stealth checks, your party is casting spells and arguing over tactics. You not only don't get a surprise round, but the monsters have had time to read the sports section before you get there.

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover

BNW, i would handle that a little different in parts. I know many don´t do it like that, but...
...if a party of 6 is sneaking up on the monsters and the rules for stealth are fullfilled (some form of cover, concealment, winning at stealth vs perception, ending moves in sufficient cover or concealment*) and 1 or several members of the party don´t win their check and are detected, the undetected ones would still get a surprise round. After that combat initiative starts normaly and everyone can act.
Of course it´s hard to sneak up on some monsters, especially without any magical aid at higher levels, but that´s a different problem.
Also, when monsters sneak up on the PC´s there should always be a perception check. If it´s done by the GM in secret or by the players is up to taste, but there should be one, since it´s more of a passive skill in that case.

*there was a FAQ about that being legal and there is also precedence in at least one scenario that let´s you do perception checks to sneak over a populated corridor without being noticed.

I agree that those rules could be written easier though.

2/5

Returning to OP's original queries, I happily have a series of solutions, courtesy of my Pathfinder Doorbreaker Guide.

Prethen wrote:
It seems that most scenarios do not let you know which way the doors open (inward and away from you or outward and towards you). I've seen maps on occasion outline this, but I don't think most do.

With options like Smash, don't worry about which way doors open-- just kick them down!

Or if you're the tricky type, bypass those intricately-carved, grandiose double-doors by slapping one of these Doorknockers on the adjacent wall and strolling on through.

For the Doorbreaker that really wishes they could take Favored Enemy: Doors to express their hatred of all things inanimate, consider investing in a Maul of the Titans and reduce to rubble anything in your way! Everything opens inward with a Maul of the Titans!

Prethen wrote:
It's always assumed that your character just swings the door open and stands in the open for all to see.

Never fear, the finest wizards in the land have bent their towering intellects to overcome this task. The humble cantrip Open/Close will make enemies weep, as their Readied actions fail to find a hapless adventurer on the other side of their door.

For added fun, give your Improved Familiar a wand of this cantrip, and Open/Close doors with the minimum of wizardly effort.

Make pesky doors a thing of the past, with Exguardi's Pathfinder Doorbreaker's Guide!

5/5 5/55/55/5

Benjamin Falk wrote:
*there was a FAQ about that being legal

Citation? I keep trying to bribe paizo to put all the FAQs onto one page but apparently they don't want a lifesized velociraptor statue.

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