RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think that the ACG finally adds enough tools to let me make a non-small lance-wielding combatant on a flying mount from level 1. Let's see what we can do here:
I'm liking the giant wasp's 60ft fly speed with good maneuverability. So to make that work, I'll be a human with Eye for Talent, sacrificing my bonus feat to raise the wasp's INT to 2 (losing the mindless quality, but letting him learn enough tricks to actually be usable).
The wasp is only medium, so my 1st-level feat is going to be Undersized Mount so I can ride him.
That leaves his carrying capacity; if memory serves, he needs to be within a light load in order to fly. As a hunter, I'll get animal focus, which will let me grant the wasp a constant +2 STR (and more later). Since he's a quadruped (well, more than that, but we only have rules for quadrupeds) he gets 1.5x carrying capacity. That puts him in the 60s for a light load.
So my first spell known will be ant haul, tripling his carrying capacity (into a comfortable 190-ish) for 2 hours per level. At 1st-2nd level, I'll probably be carrying scrolls of that. Soon I can just get by on spell slots, though.
So!
At first level, my stats will be:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 08
WIS 14
CHA 10
Or something in that neighborhood. Not sure.
Then I can cast A.H. on my wasp and mount up, performing 120ft flying charges with a lance for 2d8+12 damage.
Now, here's the tricky part:
That means that at first level I'm functional, but haven't even gotten started on real feats yet.
So do I stay mono-hunter and take Mounted Combat at 3rd, Power Attack at 5th, and so on?
Or do I go like this:
Hunter1: Undersized Mount
Hunter2
Fighter1: Boon Companion, Mounted Combat
Fighter2: Power Attack
Fighter3: Ride-by Attack
Fighter4: Spirited Charge
HunterX
Basically, a 4-level fighter dip starting at 3rd nets me two extra feats (gain 3 combat feats, but lose a feat to Boon Companion). Is that a good idea?
Any other ideas to make this build work out?
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Cities of Golarion p 50.
I haven't ever played a mounted character so I can't give you much advice on your feats. However, I'd look into the Bodyguard companion archetype from Animal Archive and taking the feats Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, In Harm's Way for your first three.
Hunter seems like a lot of fun--I haven't gotten to any high level play yet, though. Personally I'm making a cavalier 1/hunter x with undersized mount and monstrous mount so I can have a worg companion. I probably won't ever actually ride him, but it seems like it'll be a lot of fun just to have a worg as a companion.
I've also got a ranged hunter with a large cat for a home game, so we'll see how that goes, too.
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It's worth pointing out that Wheeling Charge usually won't work how it was intended to (turning 90 degrees implies going around corners (especially in dungeons)) but to charge you must have line of sight to your target--you must have a clearly designate-able target to charge it. It works fine out in the open to get around your allies--in dungeons it doesn't work as written unless you can see through walls/around corners.
also I edited my above post that you replied while I was editing so you may not have seen it--I haven't ever played a mounted character so I can't give you much advice on your feats. However, I'd look into the Bodyguard companion archetype from Animal Archive and taking the feats Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, In Harm's Way for your first three.
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Honestly, all you really need is Mounted Combat, Ride- by Attack, and Spirited Charge. If you can find a way, try to reduce or eliminate those pesky AC penalties. I'm a Cavalier, so I don't have to worry about it, but you're not.
You could also get Mounted Skirmisher and Trick Riding if you feel like it.Sadly, because you're flying, you cant really take advantage of overrun or trample, so that's some feats you won't need.
Bodyguard Archetype is an awesome choice for you.
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Instead of knowing ant haul as one of your few precious spells known, I think that you should pick up Ant Haul as your second wand with PP.
Of course, this being PFS, you can *start* with knowing Ant Haul, and then use the free rebuild rules to drop the spell once you get your wand.
I've been trying to make a flying Inquisitor, but alas... Ant Haul is not on the Inquistor spell list, meaning that I would have to rely on UMD...
Hmm
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Flying mounts unfortantly need feats as much as the rider does.
The riders core feats: mounted combat, ride-by-attack, spirited charge, power attack
The mount needs: fly by attack, wing over, hover, indomitable mount
The flying mount I recommend is a Roc. If your small a dire bat.
As far as getting a flying mount....beastmaster ranger has full druid list to pick from and with boon companion you can have it equal your HD. You can click my avatar to see Fruian's mounted ranger. I used a giant gecko cause spider climb wrecks in dungeons.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Flying mounts unfortantly need feats as much as the rider does.
The riders core feats: mounted combat, ride-by-attack, spirited charge, power attack
Pretty much what I was looking at, yeah.
The mount needs: fly by attack, wing over, hover, indomitable mount
Hang on, lemme read up...
I don't see the need for Flyby Attack.
Wingover seems nice; I'll keep it in mind, thanks!
Hover seems unnecessary; the wasp will have Fly as a class skill, has good DEX, and has good maneuverability (+4 to Fly). Hovering without the feat is only a DC 15 Fly check. He'll nearly always succeed even at level 1, and auto-succeed shortly thereafter.
Indomitable Mount is nice, but far from necessary, and I don't have the book anyway.
The flying mount I recommend is a Roc.
Thought about it, but the wasp has better maneuverability plus darkvision.
As far as getting a flying mount....beastmaster ranger has full druid list to pick from and with boon companion you can have it equal your HD.
Beast Master has to wait until 4th level to get the companion. I don't want to play three levels of being not the character I wanted to play, you know?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If memory serves, there is a barbarian that focuses on a mount/animal companion, even giving it the rage bonus and powers it gets.
Meaning you would not have to take boon companion, and later, no longer need ant haul as the raging should increase the carry nicely.
I could swear I've heard of this before, but now I can't find it. Wasn't it called the Mad Dog barbarian? Wasn't it in the APG or UC, I thought?
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Honestly, I would consider getting cities of Golarion for any mounted PC just for the 2 feats. Wheeling Charge is good. Indomitable Mount is better. Once per round, when your mount is required to make a save, you can use your Ride skill instead. Useful for preventing enemy casters from putting your flying mount to sleep while you're 100 feet in the air.
Also, if you're taking levels of fighter, it's probably worth taking the Dragoon archetype for Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (Ride). Doesn't change anything else til 5th level where you have to take the spear group for weapon training, which you'd probably want anyway.
EDIT - Apparently Mad Alchemist already mentioned this. Although the skill focus ride really pays off with Indomitable Mount.
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Note that the Primal Companion Hunter archetype lets you trade out animal focus for an evolution pool (for minutes/day). So from level 5, you can just slap wings on whatever you want. Take a Camel, give its bite Reach (and maybe trip or poison or whatever), and it can strike the foe the same time you do as long as you're not doing a ride-by attack.
Plus, flying camel! PEGASUS, TO ME
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Go full hunter Jiggy. The level 3 ability to share teamwork feats along with all of the bonus teamwork feats you're going to be receiving are invaluable for this.
I would recommend bumping your Intelligence to 13 by reducing your starting Strength to 17 and your starting Charisma to 8. That will allow you to qualify for Combat Expertise, which you need for Pack Flanking. Pack Flanking means that when you are adjacent to your mount (which you will always be) you are considered flanking, so you will ALWAYS be getting that sweet +4 flank bonus (and higher once waspy is using a menacing amulet).
I'm assuming you're using Eye for Talent to get a really smart wasp? I would combine that with a trait to get Sense Motive as a class skill so that you have something to do in social situations.
I would do this progression:
1 Undersized Mount
2 Outflank
3 Combat Expertise, Pack Flanking
4
5 Mounted Combat
6 Precise Strike
Don't forget that from level 3 on you can change your most recent teamwork feat as a standard action a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier. With a 14 Wisdom, that allows you to get Improved Share Spells once per day in order to put things like barkskin and greater longstrider on yourself and your wasp with a single cast.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you can change the bonus your wasp gets at any time to meet the situation. Take advantage of that with tricks like Seek (giving waspy a +4 bonus to Perception). If you want it to track something you can give it scent. A lot of versatility if you keep your book open to the page.
EDIT: Will you be retraining Undersized Mount when you get to level 7 and your wasp grows large, or will you be keeping it medium sized?
Do not overlook the feat Death From Above. The sky is full of charge lanes.
Do not overlook the feat Death From Above. The sky is full of charge lanes.
It's only an additional +2 on your attack rolls over the normal bonuses for charging and high ground.
One thing I would definitely recommend for the OP is both you and your mount grabbing the Escape Route teamwork feat. While mounted you both suddenly become immune to attacks of opportunity from movement.
Do not overlook the feat Death From Above. The sky is full of charge lanes.It's only an additional +2 on your attack rolls over the normal bonuses for charging and high ground.
One thing I would definitely recommend for the OP is both you and your mount grabbing the Escape Route teamwork feat. While mounted you both suddenly become immune to attacks of opportunity from movement.
To my mind, +2 for virtually all of your attacks out of one feat was well worth it -- especially with a lancer, who is likely not hanging around for full attack actions anyway. If your gonna hang all your bonus damage off of charges, you may as well make certain they hit.
I could be wrong, I don't really have an optimizer's temperament. I combine this with Escape Route as a Cav bonus feat. The mount has it too, so no AoOs.
It's a killer combo, the escape route one... but for what amounts to a two-feat investment, I don't think it's too overpowered. Anecdotally, I'm really only keeping pace with the party's ranger, damage wise. Fewer attacks, but more damage on the ones I do get.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Go full hunter Jiggy. The level 3 ability to share teamwork feats along with all of the bonus teamwork feats you're going to be receiving are invaluable for this.
I would recommend bumping your Intelligence to 13 by reducing your starting Strength to 17 and your starting Charisma to 8. That will allow you to qualify for Combat Expertise, which you need for Pack Flanking. Pack Flanking means that when you are adjacent to your mount (which you will always be) you are considered flanking, so you will ALWAYS be getting that sweet +4 flank bonus (and higher once waspy is using a menacing amulet).
Won't work: my lance has reach and my wasp doesn't, so we don't meet the requirement of needing to both threaten the enemy. :/
I'm assuming you're using Eye for Talent to get a really smart wasp? I would combine that with a trait to get Sense Motive as a class skill so that you have something to do in social situations.
I'm a bit jaded about Sense Motive in PFS; nobody ever seems to write scenarios where it works. Either there's nothing to sense in the first place, the author absolutely needs the lie to work and so the Bluff is so absurdly high you can't possibly succeed.
I would do this progression:
1 Undersized Mount
2 Outflank
3 Combat Expertise, Pack Flanking
4
5 Mounted Combat
6 Precise Strike
So neither Power Attack nor Ride-by until 7th level, and no Spirited Charge until at least 9th (11th if I ever take Power Attack)? Yikes. Not sure how I feel about that.
EDIT: Will you be retraining Undersized Mount when you get to level 7 and your wasp grows large, or will you be keeping it medium sized?
Probably keep it medium, for mobility purposes.
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Go full hunter Jiggy. The level 3 ability to share teamwork feats along with all of the bonus teamwork feats you're going to be receiving are invaluable for this.
I would recommend bumping your Intelligence to 13 by reducing your starting Strength to 17 and your starting Charisma to 8. That will allow you to qualify for Combat Expertise, which you need for Pack Flanking. Pack Flanking means that when you are adjacent to your mount (which you will always be) you are considered flanking, so you will ALWAYS be getting that sweet +4 flank bonus (and higher once waspy is using a menacing amulet).
Won't work: my lance has reach and my wasp doesn't, so we don't meet the requirement of needing to both threaten the enemy. :/
I wouldn't say it won't work. It won't work with the lance until your wasp can grab Lunge, but you can use a lance in one hand, which means your other hand can be free for a non-reach weapon. This means you can charge and then go into combat with a huge boost to your attack rolls. You definitely want your wasp stinging when possible anyway, right?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I wouldn't say it won't work. It won't work with the lance until your wasp can grab Lunge, but you can use a lance in one hand, which means your other hand can be free for a non-reach weapon. This means you can charge and then go into combat with a huge boost to your attack rolls. You definitely want your wasp stinging when possible anyway, right?Go full hunter Jiggy. The level 3 ability to share teamwork feats along with all of the bonus teamwork feats you're going to be receiving are invaluable for this.
I would recommend bumping your Intelligence to 13 by reducing your starting Strength to 17 and your starting Charisma to 8. That will allow you to qualify for Combat Expertise, which you need for Pack Flanking. Pack Flanking means that when you are adjacent to your mount (which you will always be) you are considered flanking, so you will ALWAYS be getting that sweet +4 flank bonus (and higher once waspy is using a menacing amulet).
Won't work: my lance has reach and my wasp doesn't, so we don't meet the requirement of needing to both threaten the enemy. :/
Meh, I mostly just want a flying mount, not so much an additional combatant.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Do not overlook the feat Death From Above. The sky is full of charge lanes.It's only an additional +2 on your attack rolls over the normal bonuses for charging and high ground.
One thing I would definitely recommend for the OP is both you and your mount grabbing the Escape Route teamwork feat. While mounted you both suddenly become immune to attacks of opportunity from movement.
Oh neat, that would make Ride-by Attack unnecessary, if it weren't for needing it as a prereq for Spirited Charge... do I need Spirited Charge? Hm...
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It's not just about the additional combatant. Being able to take advantage of Outflank and a menacing amulet of mighty fists is a huge boon that will make up for your 3/4 BAB, especially when charging isn't an option.
That said, there's also a number of teamwork feats that don't involve your mount attacking. Escape Route has already been mentioned, and there are others like Lookout that just provide you with more options.
Oh neat, that would make Ride-by Attack unnecessary, if it weren't for needing it as a prereq for Spirited Charge... do I need Spirited Charge? Hm...
We have a house rule that lets characters swap out certain combat feats if they spend the time to do so. (It's called battle adaptation, search the forums if you want to know more).
One of the other arrangements I have is to drop spirited charge in favor of Wheeling Charge. With a boosted move speed from haste, (and escape route as mentioned above), you can consistently dive-bomb an enemy then ascend 70 feet at 45 degrees. It's a nice defensive tactic to use as a glass cannon (my flying lancer is a summoner 5 cavalier 1, so I am not as well off as the Hunter build here).
By some interpretations you need Ride-by Attack to use a lance for a charge at all. This may have changed with the clarifications to mounted charges in the FAQ, but at some point you needed to have Ride-by or a mount with Reach to execute a lance charge, but it was obscure and no one cared to enforce it.
I highly recommend Indomitable Mount (also from Cities of Golarion). This feat has saved our butts soooooo many times by preventing a BBEG from dominating our Mammoth Rider's huge wooly rhino and turning it against us.
I highly recommend Indomitable Mount (also from Cities of Golarion). This feat has saved our butts soooooo many times by preventing a BBEG from dominating our Mammoth Rider's huge wooly rhino and turning it against us.
Seconded.
This is actually a higher priority than spirited charge, IMO.
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Did you confirm taking Eye for Talent to up your wasp's Intelligence so that you can get the Combat Riding package? You'll need it to avoid a stupid high Ride check to direct your wasp in combat.
EDIT: Nooooo, don't fall into the animal companion archetype trap! You lose Share Spells, which lets you put all the neat personal things onto your companion! It also allows you to use Improved Spell Sharing, which is just amazing use of your resources.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Did you confirm taking Eye for Talent to up your wasp's Intelligence so that you can get the Combat Riding package? You'll need it to avoid a stupid high Ride check to direct your wasp in combat.
Confirmed: gettin' me a smart bug!
EDIT: Nooooo, don't fall into the animal companion archetype trap! You lose Share Spells, which lets you put all the neat personal things onto your companion! It also allows you to use Improved Spell Sharing, which is just amazing use of your resources.
What is Improved Spell Sharing? Please don't tell me it's a feat I'd have to take. I feel like I'm starving for just the basic feats already.
But. Possibly one of the most worthwhile. I'm not sure how much you'll get out of Hunter spells, but yeah, it's worth a look, even starved for feat slots.
Because, you're also starved for spells per day, this feat gives you a really efficient return on those.
Is a feat slot worth several more spells per day? I'd say.
Eh, the animal companion archetypes are definitely worth the loss of Share Spells--especially the bodyguard archetype--and even more especially if you're not worried about your companion being an actual combatant.
A lancing build is necessarily a combat companion build.
I'm not sure how well animal companions fare under the hunter, but even for the druid's companion those defensive buffs will be the only thing keeping you astride that one-trick pony.
And it's worth noting here, druid and ranger don't get mount on their spell lists, so if you lose the mount you're just a schmuck with an unwieldy spear and 3-4 unusable feats.
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Eh, the animal companion archetypes are definitely worth the loss of Share Spells--especially the bodyguard archetype--and even more especially if you're not worried about your companion being an actual combatant.A lancing build is necessarily a combat companion build.
I'm not sure how well animal companions fare under the hunter, but even for the druid's companion those defensive buffs will be the only thing keeping you astride that one-trick pony.
And it's worth noting here, druid and ranger don't get mount on their spell lists, so if you lose the mount you're just a schmuck with an unwieldy spear and 3-4 unusable feats.
That's true for any Hunter with an animal companion as they get Teamwork Feats as class features that they get to share with their pet.
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If you lose the mount you also get the consolation prize of an additional hunter's focus. Still not nearly as good, but definitely helpful in a pinch.
Just for the sake of being able to get greater longstrider on your wasp, consider keeping Share Spells.
I've only played maybe one PFS scenarios that has had a combat where charging 120 ft via flying would not have been able to get me into range of the bad guy. You're asking him to give up an entirely useful archetype for something he won't get until he's 10th lvl that probably won't benefit him that much (120 fly vs 140--120 is already plenty).
Greater Longstrider is a 3rd level spell that he won't get until 10th level (and that's if he stays hunter only) that only grants a 10' bonus to fly speed to an already really good fly speed of 60'.
Bodyguard is generally better than Racer, unless you really think you'll need to be able to charge for 700' at some point. That said, imagine the look on your GM's face when you say that you get a 140 square charge once per hour and they have to extrapolate the map out. After all, most maps aren't 12 real feet long to accomodate those 1" squares.
Escape Route is probably the most important of the teamwork feats for you. If you don't want the Teamwork feats (totally valid given the build), you can pick up Divine Hunter on top of Verminous Hunter to get a Domain. If you do that, I would probably skip the AC archetypes because you can then schlep up some solid spells for Share Spells. Also, your mount will become slightly more sturdy.
One last point to consider: particularly at low levels, you're going to want to use your level 1 slots for Resist Energy from time to time, since you get it faster than any other caster in the game. I would say that it's probably worth the 2 PP for the wand of Ant Haul until you get a couple hours out of an actual casting of the spell.
Jiggy, I love this idea, especially for the mental image it brings to mind. I don't know what you were planning on doing on the RP side of things, but a Calistrian in a wasp-waisted breastplate with a black lance (with bumblebee stripes?) would seem...thematically appropriate. "
Feel my sting!" Heh.
For barbarian, mounted fury would get you there, giving an extra 10 ft speed, and would eventually progress the mount as well.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I did have the idea of being a worshipper of Calistria—perhaps be unique by being the only player to remember there's more to her portfolio than sex?—but maybe that's a bit too "on the nose". I could be a Desnan and claim that wasps are just "misunderstood butterflies". Not sure yet.
Hah. That would be so Desnan.
I did have the idea of being a worshipper of Calistria—perhaps be unique by being the only player to remember there's more to her portfolio than sex?—but maybe that's a bit too "on the nose". I could be a Desnan and claim that wasps are just "misunderstood butterflies". Not sure yet.
Reminds me of the feat Butterfly's Sting [/off topic]