I'll pretend the bead has lightning style (50% concealment or some such) and an AC of 20 or so.
I use the Rule of Cool. If it sounds cool I find a way to allow it. There have been several options already put forth so I don't think I'll add any others.
Perhaps. Still, where is the rule that lets you intercept spells in flight? Bullets and melee attacks have several Feats for it.No more than firing a bullet through a narrow hole requires control of some kind.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
What they said. But no i think this is one of the areas where the GM have to decide for him self. Until they "bless" us with a feat for it.
What they said. But no i think this is one of the areas where the GM have to decide for him self. Until they "bless" us with a feat for it.Perhaps. Still, where is the rule that lets you intercept spells in flight? Bullets and melee attacks have several Feats for it.No more than firing a bullet through a narrow hole requires control of some kind.
Seems that aiming it through narrow holes requires control of some kind.
hear hear, the need for having a feat for everything from your childhood to your ability to tie your shoes is at times aggravating.
Whenever I pick up a new book I dread reading the feat chapter simply because "remember that thing you like to do? now there is a feat for that"
Not saying that it's all bad, just saying that it sometimes goes to far
I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.
Because let's see... every bad guy encounter that includes a vampire can now happily include a dominated (anything that can fly and take instructions) with readied actions to fly into players' fireball beads.
Because every other bad guy encounter can now happily include a hidden archer ready to shoot down players' fireball beads.
Because any bad guy can hire a 1st-level sorcerer with magic missile to make sure the group never gets fireballed. I mean heck, it's now almost trivial to make sure you don't get burned!
RAW yes, it works. Doesn't make it a good thing to introduce to the table. Players don't really need an additional tactic to negate their abilities, do they?
Don't get me wrong... I think this is cool as heck. It's just a rule segment that cuts both ways, and players lob a lot more fireballs than bad guys do.
RAW yes, it works.
This still hasn't been made clear to me, honestly.
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I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.Because let's see... every bad guy encounter that includes a vampire can now happily include a dominated (anything that can fly and take instructions) with readied actions to fly into players' fireball beads.
Because every other bad guy encounter can now happily include a hidden archer ready to shoot down players' fireball beads.
Because any bad guy can hire a 1st-level sorcerer with magic missile to make sure the group never gets fireballed. I mean heck, it's now almost trivial to make sure you don't get burned!
RAW yes, it works. Doesn't make it a good thing to introduce to the table. Players don't really need an additional tactic to negate their abilities, do they?
Don't get me wrong... I think this is cool as heck. It's just a rule segment that cuts both ways, and players lob a lot more fireballs than bad guys do.
1. RAW doesn't say anything definitive about it. but I think everybody in this tread have agreed that it should be possible in some situations. (rule of cool was mentioned and I think that is the best measure to use regarding stuff like this)
2: all those "because: ..." you listed are falling into the category of "Dick Moves" -That's their problem not fireball inturruptis.
Magic missile can't target a fireball bead. Just saying.
And I would rule it as much easier to put yourself in the way of something than to hit it with a projectile of your own. It IS possible to jump in front of someone and take an arrow for him*. But it is not possible to shoot said arrow out of the air.
*There are some ways this can be done in PF.
I am not very familiar with it but in baseball it seems much easier to for the man behind the one with the bat to catch the ball than it is to hit the ball with the bat. Just as a point for taking the hit being easier than hitting the bead with something.
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This still hasn't been made clear to me, honestly.
RAW yes, it works.
Because RAW doesn't say anything about it. This is entirely up to the GM to rule on.
The only thing RAW says is that if the bead impacts a solid barrier early it explodes before reaching the desired target. It doesn't say the bead can be attacked, or caught, or any of the interesting ideas put forth here. So the GM has to figure out how he would rule this in each situation.
Some will say no check needs to be made. Others will come up with a roll they feel appropriate. Some will outright say no check will allow it.
Personally this is how I'd handle it.
1) caster picks line of fire and begins casting
2) fighter has readied action for fireball (You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. ) - so the fighter gets a free spellcraft check to identify the fireball (don't forget there is a penalty on distance as per perception) - *IF* he identifies the spell he can take his action - I'm *assuming* it will be a move (as firing a bow to make the caster attempt a concentration check would be a more viable tactic) - he can't move *and* attack - so the fighter (not knowing the casters actual line of attack) has to move into what he *thinks* is the most obvious line of fire.
Fine - he does - now I have to see if it's *in the way* of the pre-picked line of fire the caster was using (again this is just how I'm ruling it - I realize the caster could alter it but for the 'rule of cool' I'm fudging the fact that ready actions happen before the action that triggered it by RAW).
3) if the Fighter gets the path right - I would allow him to be called 'soft cover' - giving the wizard a ranged touch attack on the square he meant to send the bead. - I would *perhaps* allow the fighter to make a CMB check lets say DC = Wizards attack roll + spell level - if he beats this I would upgrade the cover to 'improved cover' (+8 ac) with the idea that the fighter was actively trying to jump in the way.
4) if the fighter succeeds - full damage from the fireball - you don't jump on a live grenade and get to avoid the damage.
I'd go further though if someone wanted to do this and 'cover' the bead (as per the grenade thing) but in that case I'd make them take double damage and anyone else would get a +4 on the saves and a temporary 'evasion' should they save - now that *would* be 'rule of cool'.
Just my opinion.
That's why I like Quick Draw whenever I play a martial character. I simply ready the action and chuck my javelin or chakram into their face when they start casting. Don't even have to let go of my melee weapon, generally.
I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.There's a difference between "enabling player creativity" and "allowing the player to do whatever he wants, regardless of rules".
If I allow this, it sets a precedent. Players can intercept anything at this point. Ranged attacks become worthless.
If you think it is a fun killing slippery slope. You can just say no. I cannot think of Many things where allowing intercepts like that need to be a problem. Remember we are talking about a Ready action against a quite specific thing. And if the guy intercept your fireball then you just shoot ligthning at him next.
It IS possible to jump in front of someone and take an arrow for him*.
*There are some ways this can be done in PF.
What's that? In Harm's Way? A 3 feat deep chain and you have to already be aiding their AC (or use Bodyguard to AoO improve their AC) and spend an immediate action to do it? Could you use In Harm's Way to intercept a magic missile attack? How about Ray of Enfeeblement?
If you think it is a fun killing slippery slope. You can just say no.
Apparently not, since some people seem to object to me saying no.
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I'd allow it because it's awesome. He's ready, he dives on the fireball. He takes full damage. The blast is reduced to his square, and maybe the squares adjacent to him.
The next round the caster would start detonating their fireballs ten feet off the ground (reducing the ground-level total area by 5 feet off the radius, but keeping the grenade diving lunatic from stopping it entirely)
As for a gunslinger shooting the fireball pea, that is also awesome. I'd call it a Diminutive target, and have it detonate at the point where the fireball and the bullet meet, rather than the intended location. I'd use the degree of success of the attack roll as an indicator of where along the trajectory the pea was intercepted. Barely succeed, the fireball goes off fairly near its intended target location. Critical hit, it blows up right in the caster's face.
This is the kind of crazy awesome stuff martial characters should be able to do. This is exactly how we curtail caster/martial disparity.
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In fact, this idea is so awesome that I'm adding a house rule to my games right now-
In a world full of magic, every foot soldier knows that sometimes it's necessary to simply throw caution to the wind and do something crazy to stop the effects of a rampaging spellcaster. The martial versions of Counterspell are as varied and creative as they are insane.A character may ready an action to attempt to interrupt a spell. In order to successfully interrupt a spell they must first make a Spellcraft check to identify it as it is being cast. Then they must make a Combat Maneuver check against the spell's DC. If the check is successful, the character is able to somehow interrupt the normal effect of the spell. The character may move up to their base speed during an interruption attempt in order to successfully place themselves in the right location to interrupt the spell.
Examples of Interruptions include:
- Diving in the way of incoming ray or cone effects.
- Throwing oneself down on a fireball before it explodes.
- Slapping an ally being targeted by a Dominate or Fear effect.
- Throwing a bucket or cloak over an object wing used as the target of a Darkness effect.
- Standing in the space a summoned creature is about to manifest in to prevent them from forming properly.
- Throwing sand in a caster's face just as they are casting in order to foul their aim.
- Yanking an ally away from the area of a manifesting Pit or Forcecage. Using a mirror, a highly polished weapon or shield or a pair of Ring Gates to redirect a targeted spell to a new location.
As a general rule, the interrupting character will take the brunt of any damaging spell. They do not get a saving throw, but spell resistance, energy resistance and other defenses still apply.
For non damaging spells, options that alter the spell's intended effect might include:
- giving the intended target a bonus to their save equal to the amount the Combat Maneuver check beat the spell's DC by.
- Making oneself the new target of the spell.
- Altering the battlefield in a way that renders an Emanation or Spread effect less effective.
- Delaying a teleportation or summon effect from happening for a number of rounds equal to the amount the Interrupting character beat the spell's DC by by placing a person or object in the space where the spell was intended to manifest.
- Adding a Scroll Mishap to the effect of the spell (chosen by the GM)
Note that a successful Interruption does not stop the spell from being cast. It simply changes or decreases the intended effect.
These lists are not exhaustive. Players and GMs are encouraged to be creative, using these examples as guidelines.
The actual effects of this maneuver are extremely circumstantial, based on the individual spell being cast and the creativity (or insanity) of the character attempting to interrupt the effect. Some spells may be impossible to successfully interrupt. The GM must rule on a case by case basis what the effects of a successful Interruption are.
Ready action move is fine. Ready action move and do something else is not. You can only ready a standard, move, swift, or free action. You can also take a 5' step as part of it. You cannot ready a move and standard action.
At best, the character could provide soft cover to the origin point the spellcaster is targeting by moving in the way. The spellcaster then would have to make a ranged touch attack against the grid intersection. AC 5 + soft cover + 4 = AC 9. If the spellcaster happened to have improved precise shot, that would drop back to AC 5.
OK soft cover as a rule works, and at your table I would accept that and cheer as the bead flew passed my paladin.*
At my table the rule would be based on the line of sight rule. If you don't have line of sight the spell 'hits something solid.'FWIW I am only taking about a readied action: move. I agree you can not ready a move and then do something else when you get there. Fireball is (nearly?) unique that a solid object can "intercept" it. Note it doesn't stop the spell from happening, it just changes the detonation's center.
For all of those saying this sets a precedent for ranged attacks, keep in mind that 'if it hits a solid object' is only in the wording of fireball. Nowhere in the description of arrows, spears, boulders, ranged attacks does it say 'a solid object can change the targets' that are targeted.
Are you implying that if an arrow hits a wall it's not intercepted
Because that's what it sounds like you're implying
thats what I was intending/hoping would happen, big dumb fighter saves his groups just by changing the location of where the blast would detonate. I suppose depending on the situation a readied action: Shut the door, would accomplish the same thing, and work on everything else. That however does open a lot more doors to negating arrows, rays, etc.
The problem with using "shut a door" on spells, is you don't know where the target of the spell is. If you ready an action "when he casts a spell I will close the door" then he can change the origin of the spell he cast as that is decided once the spell is completed casting. So maybe you close the door to you, but now he can choose to try to shoot through the arrow slit in the wall next to the door instead. Or he can fireball a different location where he thinks someone might be sneaking in.
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I'm surprised such an awesome and obvious idea is meeting so much resistance. Some GMs just like to piss all over player creativity I guess.There's a difference between "enabling player creativity" and "allowing the player to do whatever he wants, regardless of rules".
If I allow this, it sets a precedent. Players can intercept anything at this point. Ranged attacks become worthless.
The precedent it creates is that "this might work", not that "this will work every time".
There's no rule for it, so what works creatively one time may not work the next time, especially if it's under slightly different circumstances.
If you wait until the caster picks a target, then it's too late to stop them casting the spell. That makes perfect sense, and that system works.
This contradicts what you later say, because when the caster picks the range for the fireball spell, that is choosing the target, so it is too late to stop them.
However, you can take someone's target into account when determining your own actions in response to theirs. For example, you could ready an action to drop prone "if someone makes a ranged attack against me." It doesn't matter if they're using a crossbow or scorching ray, you act in response to them targeting you and perform your action, and then the triggering action takes affect. Same with acting in response to "someone casts a fireball that is aimed on a path passing within 30 feet of me."
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
Ehhh. I don't think that is a valid condition for a readied action. If the fireball projectile is passing along side you, then you don't get to stop time, teleporting up to 30' of distance to get in the way of the projectile. "If I am targeting with a ranged attack" is fine, because your action goes off prior to the attack roll. "If a ranged attack was going to hit me I want to drop prone" is not a valid condition, because they have already hit you, so you can't get the +4 to AC after they already hit.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
Fireball is an instantaneous spell. The caster determines the range for the explosion to happen. Because the spell is instantaneous, I don't think there is time for any readied actions to occur between when the caster decides the range and when the spell comes into effect.
In my example of "ranged attack" I was thinking arrows/slings/crossbows not spells.
Instantaneous spells are just that, instant. You can act prior to the spell being complete, in which you don't know who or what the target is. Or you can act after the spell has come into effect, which includes the targets being effected by the spell.
You cannot drop prone to being targeted by a spell and be prone before the effect of the spell goes off. The instant you are targeted by the spell, the spell's effect has already happened. They are one and the same.
Actually, in this case, no they aren't. A fireball isn't causing a sudden explosion somewhere, it is conjuring a bead of fire, which then travels at great speed, and then explodes. A fireball is an instantaneous spell. Shooting an arrow is an instantaneous attack. If you can react for one, you can react to the other.
The instant the spell is finished casting, that bead of fire instantly follows where the caster aimed it, and instantly explodes dealing damage. There is no passage of time during this instant. Either the caster is still casting, or the spell has completed and the effects are finished. There is no in-between.
Actually, in this case, no they aren't. A fireball isn't causing a sudden explosion somewhere, it is conjuring a bead of fire, which then travels at great speed, and then explodes. A fireball is an instantaneous spell. Shooting an arrow is an instantaneous attack. If you can react for one, you can react to the other.
They do indeed share something in common.
You can't leap in front of an arrow to stop it either.
Actually, in this case, no they aren't. A fireball isn't causing a sudden explosion somewhere, it is conjuring a bead of fire, which then travels at great speed, and then explodes. A fireball is an instantaneous spell. Shooting an arrow is an instantaneous attack. If you can react for one, you can react to the other.The instant the spell is finished casting, that bead of fire instantly follows where the caster aimed it, and instantly explodes dealing damage. There is no passage of time during this instant. Either the caster is still casting, or the spell has completed and the effects are finished. There is no in-between.
Look at the AllyShield betrayal feat. It clearls lets you react to being targetet by some instant spells. Those that are ranged attacks.
I am on a mobile so no link.
Actually, in this case, no they aren't. A fireball isn't causing a sudden explosion somewhere, it is conjuring a bead of fire, which then travels at great speed, and then explodes. A fireball is an instantaneous spell. Shooting an arrow is an instantaneous attack. If you can react for one, you can react to the other.The instant the spell is finished casting, that bead of fire instantly follows where the caster aimed it, and instantly explodes dealing damage. There is no passage of time during this instant. Either the caster is still casting, or the spell has completed and the effects are finished. There is no in-between.Look at the AllyShield betrayal feat. It clearls lets you react to being targetet by some instant spells. Those that are ranged attacks.
I am on a mobile so no link.
1) A feat allowing you to do something shows that without that feat, you are not allowed to do it.
2) Fireballs are not ranged attacks.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A body, who being smarter than the average person sees a wizard in the back of a place. The person is standing in the front of his group and knows that fireballs are a very dangerous and deadly spell. He has prepared himself accordingly with belts and potions of fire resist. His group, however, has not. Standing in the front of the group by at least 20 feet, he readies an action to Spellcraft a fireball spell, and then tackle the pea the wizard flings.
** spoiler omitted **
The bold states that the pea can be intercepted. The fighter plans to do this. What does he roll to jump in front of a fireball or tackle the pea?
There's no rule for it I can find, so really, I'd just let it happen. The idea of throwing yourself on a grenade (metaphorically) like that is too awesome to not let it happen.
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Actually, in this case, no they aren't. A fireball isn't causing a sudden explosion somewhere, it is conjuring a bead of fire, which then travels at great speed, and then explodes. A fireball is an instantaneous spell. Shooting an arrow is an instantaneous attack. If you can react for one, you can react to the other.The instant the spell is finished casting, that bead of fire instantly follows where the caster aimed it, and instantly explodes dealing damage. There is no passage of time during this instant. Either the caster is still casting, or the spell has completed and the effects are finished. There is no in-between.Look at the AllyShield betrayal feat. It clearls lets you react to being targetet by some instant spells. Those that are ranged attacks.
I am on a mobile so no link.1) A feat allowing you to do something shows that without that feat, you are not allowed to do it.
2) Fireballs are not ranged attacks.
Your point was that there is no time to do whatsoever between targeting an instantaneous spell and the spell hitting its target. The feat proves you wrong. I never said the feat would help with the fireball. Only that it works on instantaneous spells.
You just have to word the ready action carefully. If you ready for him casting there is no bead yet. But you could ready for the fireball to impact.
And that is just assuming you know the mage is notorious for throwing fireballs. Or (like we had once) the enemy already spent his last three turns throwing beads from his necklace of fireballs. (But the necklace lacks the text about it detonating early when it strikes something.)
I only see this coming up very rarely. A party at full strength can take a fireball and not worry too much. But lets say there are 3 players at 25% health fighting minions, the cleric is down and bleeding, and the BBG fires a fireball at the three that are clustered. The fighter is ready for the caster to cast fireball because he did it last round. If he spellcrafts it his action goes off and he steps infront of it. He gets no save but the party is saved from a TPK and is almost killed in the process.
People wont normally jump infront of a spell because well usually the party can take it. With arrows and bullets you are targeting that person and not a square so that make it work a bit different in Pathfinder terms. Unless you have some of the other feats mentioned you cant get infront of the arrow but you could with fireball and a few other spells as they allow for things to block them. The caster is standing there with his arm outstreched pointing is finger at a fixed point in space. If you move in the path then there is an object blocking it and you forgo your save to do so.
I would let it happen becase of the rule of cool.
I honestly don't see how this could be effectively abused by players. Is the Deflect Arrows monk going to waste his WHOLE turn so that he MIGHT be able to negate ONE arrow attack against another character? Maybe. In isolated situations. It's just not efficient enough to worthwhile in normal circumstances.
NPCs with infinite expendable minions and/or resources could put it to better use I guess, but then it becomes an issue of poor encounter design, not balance or rules.
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I would allow it because:
1) Rule of Cool.
2) The fireball spell points out that obstructions can impede the spell and cause it to blow prematurely.
3) This is the sort of thing that readied actions are made for. You can perform a reactionary response normally not allowed by the game at the cost of your turn and initiative. While powerful, it's very costly and not abusable.
4) I think it's the kind of creativity that a GM should encourage.
5) It adds another way for martials to contribute to their team without just whacking things with a pointy object.
5) It adds another way for martials to contribute to their team without just whacking things with a pointy object.
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5) It adds another way for martials to contribute to their team without just whacking things with a pointy object.
Martials contributing meaningfully!? Can't have that! *Readies arbitrary nerf bat*